The Things Customers Do

[Spreedizzle 1]

The difference in the scenarios is which is being blatantly vindictive.

[jimmy 194]

Yeah, he's not purposely trying to "scam" the store... Like most customers that don't understand that the hockey economy is effed, he just thinks if he can get a better deal somewhere else then why not? If the supermarket sells the same cereal at your "local organics market" for half the price, where you going to buy it from?

I support my LHS 100%, but like I said not everybody knows about how difficult it is to survive in this market.

BS! Everyone who scams, knows they are scamming. They know before they enter they have NO intention of buying. They are only going in to get their size so they can buy online. Premeditated, yes. Scamming is cheating. I can't for the life of me understand why people think this is OK and actually try to stick up for these a-holes. I don't give a crap if your a poor college student, a single mom, whatever. Be an honest person and buy the product from the online store without scamming your LHS. These a-holes want the cheaper prices but want the service and ability to size without paying for it. Be honest people, if you want to buy online, look at the little 2-inch pic online, then try to figure out your size and be a man and take your risk buy buying sight and sizing unseen. LHS are NOT showrooms for online stores and if you use them as such, you are stealing from them. It cost LHS money to display a product. Lots of money. When you cheat them, you are stealing from them, and yes in some cases can force them out of business.. If some SOB comes back to my store after I or my staff spent hrs fitting them for something and they have purchased that item elsewhere, they are no longer welcome in my store. GTF out and go get your sharpening at the online store. Honestly, we don't need those a-holes business.

[raygunpk 0]

So you're defending the guy who put him in wrong size pads, which could potentially injure him? The charging for fitting fee is a much more mature way to deal with it.

[TBLfan 25]

Yeah, he's not purposely trying to "scam" the store... Like most customers that don't understand that the hockey economy is effed, he just thinks if he can get a better deal somewhere else then why not? If the supermarket sells the same cereal at your "local organics market" for half the price, where you going to buy it from?

I support my LHS 100%, but like I said not everybody knows about how difficult it is to survive in this market.

BS! Everyone who scams, knows they are scamming. They know before they enter they have NO intention of buying. They are only going in to get their size so they can buy online. Premeditated, yes. Scamming is cheating. I can't for the life of me understand why people think this is OK and actually try to stick up for these a-holes. I don't give a crap if your a poor college student, a single mom, whatever. Be an honest person and buy the product from the online store without scamming your LHS. These a-holes want the cheaper prices but want the service and ability to size without paying for it. Be honest people, if you want to buy online, look at the little 2-inch pic online, then try to figure out your size and be a man and take your risk buy buying sight and sizing unseen. LHS are NOT showrooms for online stores and if you use them as such, you are stealing from them. It cost LHS money to display a product. Lots of money. When you cheat them, you are stealing from them, and yes in some cases can force them out of business.. If some SOB comes back to my store after I or my staff spent hrs fitting them for something and they have purchased that item elsewhere, they are no longer welcome in my store. GTF out and go get your sharpening at the online store. Honestly, we don't need those a-holes business.

You always think everyone is out to get you. Thats probably why you hide behind your "twin's" name. You are soo narrow-minded to think that all these people walk in and say, "I bet I can screw this guy over." No, they walk in and say "Wow, it's a lot cheaper online." I wonder how many of these people think "Hey, he has it worse than HG and can't offer their price." Probably not many, that is NOT their fault. You can't blame a child for touching the hot stove when they don't know any better.

I wonder if you feel the same way about offering services online that take away business from local economies because certain websites poise themselves as an authority. Hmm, I wonder if they only do business to those that are in areas that don't have shops that offer those services. Wouldn't that be like stabbing a brother in the back by taking his business?

[Wolfpack_1986 146]

so you would call someone a douche bag who doesnt know weather you want to buy a low end skate vs a high end skate?

That sounds reasonable

you can find that out by asking about features... asking someone "how much money are you looking to spend today" right off the bat is a bit ridiculous.

[hamstercaster 2]

I also believe that the customers are not coming only to scam LHS owners of their bread and butter or put them out of business. I think that common misconception is that store owners, no matter what type of retail it is, are rich or have at least more money then them so they don't care if they come in and get fitted for free then buy the skates, pads or whatever online. In their minds they think you are ripping them off by charging more than the online store. And it's understandable to a certain extent as people never think twice about why such and such costs a certain price compared to what they can find online. It happens more with skates and more expensive stuff as this is where the savings are online. I mean any person in his right mind will pay the extra 5$ for a product to have it now as opposed to buying it online and having to wait for the product to arrive. The problem arises when you get to the more pricy items. If you can buy one95 skates for lets say 350$ online but they are 600$ at your LHS, it's really a no brainer for the customer in most case provided he's ready to lose 300$ in the event the skates don't make it home from the Ebay seller for exemple. The internet has changed the way of doing business and the music business found that out the hard way in the late 90's early 2000's.. now it's the rest of retail that is having to cope with wath challenges the internet brings.

[eric42434224 1]

I also am willing to give the customers the benefit of the doubt....BUT....I am less likely to do that if it is a repeat customer. In that I mean, if it is your first time looking for equipment, and go to the LHS, and find online prices are cheaper, then that is not purposeful deception. But if they come in again at another time for different equipment, and know about the online stores, then that is purposeful, and I dont look as kindly on that. Lets also state that many LHS's are not Mom and Pop, and charge a huge mark-up....not sure how many, but I know one one in particular that does. The ethics of business knows no boundaries....online or not. JMHO.

[wildebeest 0]

I gotta say, I'm with jimmy on this one. I used to manage a locally-owned store that sold computers and audio devices made by a certain fruit-oriented computer company, and when people would come in and get the whole demo and sales pitch just to say that another online place had it cheaper, it would really piss us all off. I have no idea what the markups are like in a hockey shop, but I can tell you that those trendy little pieces of apple-flavored pocket candy brought us roughly 7%, depending on which model we sold. Keep in mind, that this company sets minimum advertised pricing and we were always, without fail, right in line with MAPs. When we're dealing with online places that sell them at what is just over our cost, there's no way we can compete with those prices.

What would REALLY get my goose is when these people would come back two weeks later and try to treat us like the "Genius" Bar, asking a million questions, trying to get us to show them how to sync their device or whatever. Some people even went so far as to bring their laptops in so we could do it for them! Needless to say, they weren't exactly enthusiastic about paying for a service that we'd happily provide to a customer that purchased their stuff with us for free.

People who shop based on price are the worst customers.

[VakarLajos 5]

Needless to say, they weren't exactly enthusiastic about paying for a service that we'd happily provide to a customer that purchased their stuff with us for free.

People who shop based on price are the worst customers.

These are more the type of customers that I can't stand.

[eric42434224 1]

People who shop based on price are the worst customers.

LOL. Really? Shouldnt that be one of the major considerations? Price is a valid and important factor wether you like it or not.

It may not be a popular concept, but it is very likely that many industries with brick and mortar point of sales will become extinct.

Edited October 2, 2008 by eric42434224

[VakarLajos 5]

People who shop based on price are the worst customers.

LOL. Really? Shouldnt that be one of the major considerations? Price is a valid and important factor wether you like it or not.

It may not be a popular concept, but it is very likely that many industries with brick and mortar point of sales will become extinct.

I agree. I completely understand shopping based on price, but there's an ethical way to go about that.

Nobody needs to be told that money is tight in a lot of families right now so I understand keeping the cost low. A family with 4 kids is in for a rough ride if they all want to play hockey. Imagine if they all want to be goalies!

For those people I think don't understand that they are "scamming" us, I try and explain it to them. For those that I know are aware of their actions I don't bother with them anymore. For those who blatantly state in the store, "Oh we'll just by it online", that's just common sense that you're slapping the business across the face.

I know Cohen's Opticals writes down any information you have while sizing (lenses, frames, etc) and will not give it out. So unless you have a great memory you have to come back and buy it from them.

[TBLfan 25]

People who shop based on price are the worst customers.

LOL. Really? Shouldnt that be one of the major considerations? Price is a valid and important factor wether you like it or not.

It may not be a popular concept, but it is very likely that many industries with brick and mortar point of sales will become extinct.

I agree. I completely understand shopping based on price, but there's an ethical way to go about that.

Nobody needs to be told that money is tight in a lot of families right now so I understand keeping the cost low. A family with 4 kids is in for a rough ride if they all want to play hockey. Imagine if they all want to be goalies!

For those people I think don't understand that they are "scamming" us, I try and explain it to them. For those that I know are aware of their actions I don't bother with them anymore. For those who blatantly state in the store, "Oh we'll just by it online", that's just common sense that you're slapping the business across the face.

I know Cohen's Opticals writes down any information you have while sizing (lenses, frames, etc) and will not give it out. So unless you have a great memory you have to come back and buy it from them.

Exactly, you can't write everyone off as a scammer. Most dont realize the cost associated with running a smaller store. Heck, in a chain store I had people ask me for every little penny they could get... If you want to blame anyone blame these business guys that go on tv saying giving "tips" on saving money. They tell everyone things are cheaper online and to ask for a deal.

Edited October 2, 2008 by TBLfan

[JJ Thompson94 0]

Seriously. All the stores complain. But really, Put a sign over your skates that say "all fittings $25. Money will be credited if you buy skates". You'll see no rise in sales what so ever. Because, If I didn't love to save my LHS, I'd pay the $25, get fitted and still buy the skates online becuase the online savings are much more than $25.

This is a new era of internet sales. People and stores need to adapt to the internet. Espessially LHS that are aware of this problem. Stop putting it on the customer. Put it on yourself. People will go for the lowest price and then go somewhere else to get it serviced. You should know that and just stop complaining and find a way to fix it. 99 out of 100 customers don't care about your problems running your LHS, just like 99 out of 100 LHS owners/employees don't care that a customer is having trouble affording gas, just to get to hockey let alone buying the Newest One95's on the market.

[eric42434224 1]

Well said.

[mgoblue 0]

Nicely put, JJ.

Anybody hear of any tactics to combat these problems - something more substantial than just charging for skate sizing?

[VakarLajos 5]

Seriously. All the stores complain. But really, Put a sign over your skates that say "all fittings $25. Money will be credited if you buy skates". You'll see no rise in sales what so ever. Because, If I didn't love to save my LHS, I'd pay the $25, get fitted and still buy the skates online becuase the online savings are much more than $25.

This is a new era of internet sales. People and stores need to adapt to the internet. Espessially LHS that are aware of this problem. Stop putting it on the customer. Put it on yourself. People will go for the lowest price and then go somewhere else to get it serviced. You should know that and just stop complaining and find a way to fix it. 99 out of 100 customers don't care about your problems running your LHS, just like 99 out of 100 LHS owners/employees don't care that a customer is having trouble affording gas, just to get to hockey let alone buying the Newest One95's on the market.

It's a much more complex thing than just putting things on the net. The site designs are a bit tricker than just putting up a MySpace page or selling on ebay.

First, who is going to keep the site updated? Hire a web designer or use somebody already on staff?

How do you integrate that to your current stock? Do you set different prices online and in-store?

For many small stores there is a lot of additional overhead that they can't afford right now.

It's not that LHS owners/workers don't care that customers are having trouble affording gas it's that many of them are having trouble affording it themselves. If somebody is pushing a One95 on somebody they knew was in dire straights then I wouldn't give them my business. If they are refusing to match HockeyMonkey it's another thing. The people at hockey monkey have done nothing to gain that sale in a customer service aspect. What they've done is follow a good business model. One that unfortunately is leading to the decline of the LHS.

[chippa13 1844]

Yeah, he's not purposely trying to "scam" the store... Like most customers that don't understand that the hockey economy is effed, he just thinks if he can get a better deal somewhere else then why not? If the supermarket sells the same cereal at your "local organics market" for half the price, where you going to buy it from?

I support my LHS 100%, but like I said not everybody knows about how difficult it is to survive in this market.

Completely different. Did you spend a 1/2 hour of the clerk's time at the organics market first knowing that you had no intention of buying from him?

[jimmy 194]

Yeah, he's not purposely trying to "scam" the store... Like most customers that don't understand that the hockey economy is effed, he just thinks if he can get a better deal somewhere else then why not? If the supermarket sells the same cereal at your "local organics market" for half the price, where you going to buy it from?

I support my LHS 100%, but like I said not everybody knows about how difficult it is to survive in this market.

Completely different. Did you spend a 1/2 hour of the clerk's time at the organics market first knowing that you had no intention of buying from him?

Exactly. Choosing on price is one thing, I and most people do that all the time. If Kmart has item for $20 and another dept store has it for $30, then that's a no-brainer. Neither of the 2 stores is providing anything different than the other, it's apples to apples. However, scammers want the service too but aren't willing to pay for it. So with willful intent, they sneak down to their LHS and try products on, examine them, and/or waste lots of the clerks time, then run home any buy it online.

[jimmy 194]

So you're defending the guy who put him in wrong size pads, which could potentially injure him? The charging for fitting fee is a much more mature way to deal with it.

No, I'm not defending that. Both are wrong, but IMO the scammer is worse. How I handle it when I sense a scammer is that I just don't tell them anything, or give them 5 choices. I'm not getting their business anyway, so I'm not loosing anything other they don't come in the store anymore, and that's a good thing. I'm all for fitting fees.

[eric42434224 1]

The LHS's are going to have to adapt to this situation, fair or not. Business is business. It will only get worse. With the rapid increase in technology, it is only a matter of time before online stores are able to properly fit someone from a distance. We have phones that have more processing power than computers did 6 yrs ago, and are the size of a pack of trading cards.... and that was considered Sci-Fi not too long ago....now it is common place. Eventually, the online stores will have some type of technology to do 3-d mapping from data sent to them by the customer, along with some motion video , height and weight, etc....and will be able to fit you as well, or better, than the average LHS. Perhaps the technology will be available to actually create to boot from that data to custom fit every skate. Sound crazy? Im sure chatting with naked women in Russia on a computer was thought of as crazy too once. Wonderful for sure, but crazy :)

[spanphly 0]

here is an idea for all of you LHS owners out there...

match any in-stock online prices! if you have an internet connection in your store then you can verify it and match the price... if you don't want to do that then you have a pricing problem...

I go to my LHS because I like talking to someone about the product and being able to try things on or hold them in my hands before I pull the trigger on a purchase... my LHS matches any online prices and that makes it an easy decision, I get the best of both worlds...

[eric42434224 1]

It seems that the online stores are adapting to the problem from their side. In-Line Warehouse will send you a skate, you get to try it on, and then you can return it if you dont want it with zero charge. You just have to be able to cover the cost on a credit card until it gets reimbursed. Not a fix for all the customers, but it is a step in the right direction for their business model. None of my local LHSs had the 2009 RBK 9k in stock, so I ordered it from them....found out the fit wasnt quite right, and returned it, and moved on to other options.

[chippa13 1844]

The LHS's are going to have to adapt to this situation, fair or not. Business is business. It will only get worse. With the rapid increase in technology, it is only a matter of time before online stores are able to properly fit someone from a distance. We have phones that have more processing power than computers did 6 yrs ago, and are the size of a pack of trading cards.... and that was considered Sci-Fi not too long ago....now it is common place. Eventually, the online stores will have some type of technology to do 3-d mapping from data sent to them by the customer, along with some motion video , height and weight, etc....and will be able to fit you as well, or better, than the average LHS. Perhaps the technology will be available to actually create to boot from that data to custom fit every skate. Sound crazy? Im sure chatting with naked women in Russia on a computer was thought of as crazy too once. Wonderful for sure, but crazy :)

Sure, you might be able to measure size through the web someday but you'll never be able to measure comfort or feel.

here is an idea for all of you LHS owners out there...

match any in-stock online prices! if you have an internet connection in your store then you can verify it and match the price... if you don't want to do that then you have a pricing problem...

I go to my LHS because I like talking to someone about the product and being able to try things on or hold them in my hands before I pull the trigger on a purchase... my LHS matches any online prices and that makes it an easy decision, I get the best of both worlds...

And watch those LHS go out of business because they can't get the same volumn discounts and they have overhead that online stores don't.

[jimmy 194]

Yeah, he's not purposely trying to "scam" the store... Like most customers that don't understand that the hockey economy is effed, he just thinks if he can get a better deal somewhere else then why not? If the supermarket sells the same cereal at your "local organics market" for half the price, where you going to buy it from?

I support my LHS 100%, but like I said not everybody knows about how difficult it is to survive in this market.

BS! Everyone who scams, knows they are scamming. They know before they enter they have NO intention of buying. They are only going in to get their size so they can buy online. Premeditated, yes. Scamming is cheating. I can't for the life of me understand why people think this is OK and actually try to stick up for these a-holes. I don't give a crap if your a poor college student, a single mom, whatever. Be an honest person and buy the product from the online store without scamming your LHS. These a-holes want the cheaper prices but want the service and ability to size without paying for it. Be honest people, if you want to buy online, look at the little 2-inch pic online, then try to figure out your size and be a man and take your risk buy buying sight and sizing unseen. LHS are NOT showrooms for online stores and if you use them as such, you are stealing from them. It cost LHS money to display a product. Lots of money. When you cheat them, you are stealing from them, and yes in some cases can force them out of business.. If some SOB comes back to my store after I or my staff spent hrs fitting them for something and they have purchased that item elsewhere, they are no longer welcome in my store. GTF out and go get your sharpening at the online store. Honestly, we don't need those a-holes business.

You always think everyone is out to get you. Thats probably why you hide behind your "twin's" name. You are soo narrow-minded to think that all these people walk in and say, "I bet I can screw this guy over." No, they walk in and say "Wow, it's a lot cheaper online." I wonder how many of these people think "Hey, he has it worse than HG and can't offer their price." Probably not many, that is NOT their fault. You can't blame a child for touching the hot stove when they don't know any better.

I wonder if you feel the same way about offering services online that take away business from local economies because certain websites poise themselves as an authority. Hmm, I wonder if they only do business to those that are in areas that don't have shops that offer those services. Wouldn't that be like stabbing a brother in the back by taking his business?

Actually, most customers are honest and I really appreciate them and their business. For me scammers are few and far between because my in-store prices are essentially the same as online stores, in some cases cheaper. I really don't worry about it too much except when I see it on forums where people encourage and support that concept . When I see that, I speak up. As one of the few store OWNERS on this board I guess that makes me the bad person.

As for my, "twin". When I joined MSH I didn't think it would be appropriate for anyone to know who I or my business was, this way I could give honest reviews on products, without any retribution by manufacturers. I explained this to JR right up front. What good is conversation with out being able to discuss the bad too. Also, I did not want to solicit any business like others do on forums. Staying anonymous would have been the best. Nevertheless, after about a year, one of the vendors let it out who I was.

So "TBLfan" that the name your mother gave you? What's your real name? How dare you have a "twin" name. Lastly, I shop online all the time, as do many. It appears you have a problem with online sites selling services that they can get locally, why is that? BTW, I don't steal anyones business, in fact I encourage others to get their sharpening locally, always have, always will. It's right on my website, always has been. I don't advertise or solicit business, skaters looking for relief find my store on google. Why people come to me is because they have tried their local person, and either they suck at it or they can't get what I offer. I guess you expect them to continue to support their local guy and skate crappy. Is that your answer?

[eric42434224 1]

The LHS's are going to have to adapt to this situation, fair or not. Business is business. It will only get worse. With the rapid increase in technology, it is only a matter of time before online stores are able to properly fit someone from a distance. We have phones that have more processing power than computers did 6 yrs ago, and are the size of a pack of trading cards.... and that was considered Sci-Fi not too long ago....now it is common place. Eventually, the online stores will have some type of technology to do 3-d mapping from data sent to them by the customer, along with some motion video , height and weight, etc....and will be able to fit you as well, or better, than the average LHS. Perhaps the technology will be available to actually create to boot from that data to custom fit every skate. Sound crazy? Im sure chatting with naked women in Russia on a computer was thought of as crazy too once. Wonderful for sure, but crazy :)

Sure, you might be able to measure size through the web someday but you'll never be able to measure comfort or feel.

Never say never. Comfort and feel cant be measured even today, as skates will feel different on the ice, and change over time. What feels comfy now, may not in 3 weeks. That happens all the time.

Things once thought impossible are common place today. What about automated machines that build a boot around your foot as you sit there? VERY possible. You would get a boot that fit you perfectly, with your own specific features, materials, colors. It would be the best possible fit, and be very individual.

Try explaining a carbon fibre OPS and its performance to a hockey player from the 30's. Things like instant custom skates are very possible....but not for a while.