Bonds Biographer speaks out

[Chadd 916]

IF Bonds is eventually convicted, I would like to see him in a similar situation as Rose where he isn't even on the HOF ballot.

That would actually be a good idea

Then again, Rose was never convicted of betting on baseball. It's just the opinion of an investigator hired by MLB.

[mrusse01 0]

Rumors are Bonds is also saying he will play next year as well. I don't understand why he won't go to the AL, he would be a devastating DH for 2-3 more years at least. The guy still can get on base better than anyone in baseball.

Not to get off topic but as for the GOAT discussions, sorry guys but Babe Ruth is easily the best hitter of all time, like it's not even a debate. He was so far ahead of everyone else at the time it's ridiculous, he was hitting more HR's than entire teams.

Babe also had more strike outs than anyone. I would also have to say pitching then isn't anywhere near what it is today, guys are just stronger, faster and a lot smarter. Babe was great for his time though.

Ok, lets take a poll of American League GM's and ask them if they would rather have Barry Bonds in his prime or a player who will lead the league in strikeouts...but will also out homer every single TEAM in the AL, as Babe did in 1927. Oh yeah and this player also happens to have thrown 29 2/3rds consecutive shutout innings in the World Series.

[trevor13478 1]

Ok, lets take a poll of American League GM's and ask them if they would rather have Barry Bonds in his prime or a player who will lead the league in strikeouts...but will also out homer every single TEAM in the AL, as Babe did in 1927. Oh yeah and this player also happens to have thrown 29 2/3rds consecutive shutout innings in the World Series.

in no way, shape or form am i supporting barry bonds, i can't stand the guy, but i do have to point out that it was a different game when babe played, imagine somebody outhomering an entire team now, no way. especially not a pitcher.

[LkptTiger 1]

I don't know how we can get this far into a "who is the greatest hitter of all-time?" conversation without Ted Williams being dropped (ha, get it? Ted Williams...dropped...ugh, I'm going to Hell) into the mix. Guys who swing for the fences get all the love while guys who hit for average like Teddy and I (I'm a lead-off man) are forgotten.

Chicks dig the long ball, I guess.

[Chadd 916]

I don't know how we can get this far into a "who is the greatest hitter of all-time?" conversation without Ted Williams being dropped (ha, get it? Ted Williams...dropped...ugh, I'm going to Hell) into the mix. Guys who swing for the fences get all the love while guys who hit for average like Teddy and I (I'm a lead-off man) are forgotten.

Chicks dig the long ball, I guess.

We were only talking about the top three home run guys. Teddy Ballgame was not as much of a power hitter as these guys, but was probably a better pure hitter than anyone who ever played the game.

[mrusse01 0]

I don't know how we can get this far into a "who is the greatest hitter of all-time?" conversation without Ted Williams being dropped (ha, get it? Ted Williams...dropped...ugh, I'm going to Hell) into the mix. Guys who swing for the fences get all the love while guys who hit for average like Teddy and I (I'm a lead-off man) are forgotten.

Chicks dig the long ball, I guess.

Ruth's career batting avg. was .342...Williams was .344. So Ruth wasn't exactly swinging for the fences all the time. And I mentioned Williams before as the second best hitter of all time, behind Ruth and ahead of Bonds.

We were only talking about the top three home run guys. Teddy Ballgame was not as much of a power hitter as these guys, but was probably a better pure hitter than anyone who ever played the game.

Teddy Ballgame missed three prime years due to military service, give him reasonable numbers in those year and he is #2 or #3 all time in HR's and RBI's. He is also second all-time in SLG%. People get distracted by him being the last man to hit .400, and think he only hit for average, but in truth Ted Williams is about as good a power hitter as anyone in history, and FAR better than Henry Aaron.

[Jason Harris 31]

Teddy Ballgame missed three prime years due to military service, give him reasonable numbers in those year and he is #2 or #3 all time in HR's and RBI's. He is also second all-time in SLG%. People get distracted by him being the last man to hit .400, and think he only hit for average, but in truth Ted Williams is about as good a power hitter as anyone in history, and FAR better than Henry Aaron.

Actually, it was nearly five full years of his prime. He missed 1943-1944=5 due to WWII, and played only 6 games in 1952 and 37 in 1953 due to the Korean War. If we were to give him 150 homers for those years missed, he would have ended up with 671 homers, 43 short of Ruth. That said, Ruth also missed AB's due to being mostly a pitcher his first 3.5 seasons.

[Jason Harris 31]

I don't know how we can get this far into a "who is the greatest hitter of all-time?" conversation without Ted Williams being dropped (ha, get it? Ted Williams...dropped...ugh, I'm going to Hell) into the mix. Guys who swing for the fences get all the love while guys who hit for average like Teddy and I (I'm a lead-off man) are forgotten.

I thought the discussion was about the Greatest Player of All-Time. If it's purely hitting, it would be a long argument between Ruth and Williams (with an asterisk for era). However, for a question of player, Ruth earns extra points for having a 94-46 record as a pitcher, while Bonds earns points for 8 Gold Gloves and 500 steals. Willie Mays also earns points for his fielding and speed.

Who knows where Griffey and A-Rod will slot into this discussion? Griffey has won 10 Gold Gloves, so he obviously would slot higher than his batting statistics would indicate. A-Rod hasn't been as superlative a fielder, but he likely will end up with the HR record (although Canseco intimated last week on WEEI - starts around 20:30 mark that A-Rod might not be as clean as believed, which wouldn't surprise me since I noted in another thread earlier tha A-Rod was noticeably larger this year).

[Chadd 916]

I thought the discussion about the Greatest Player of All-Time. If it's purely hitting, it would be a long argument between Ruth and Williams (with an asterisk for era). However, for a question of player, Ruth earns extra points for having a 94-46 record as a pitcher, while Bonds earns points for 8 Gold Gloves and 500 steals. Willie Mays also earns points for his fielding and speed.

Gold gloves aren't handed out to the best fielders and haven't been for quite some time.

[sabre09923 0]

Although, Salming, Canseco was quoted as saying he had some "stuff" on A-Rod. It could be steroids, it could be marital infidelity, or it could be something about those sleepovers at Jeter's. Just kidding on the last one.

Purely on the field (no off the field stuff), I would rate the best players of all time as follows:

1. Babe Ruth (he ended the infamous dead-ball era)

2. Ted Williams

3. Willie Mays

4. Barry Bonds

[Jason Harris 31]

I thought the discussion about the Greatest Player of All-Time. If it's purely hitting, it would be a long argument between Ruth and Williams (with an asterisk for era). However, for a question of player, Ruth earns extra points for having a 94-46 record as a pitcher, while Bonds earns points for 8 Gold Gloves and 500 steals. Willie Mays also earns points for his fielding and speed.

Gold gloves aren't handed out to the best fielders and haven't been for quite some time.

I know some believe that when two players' fielding is deemed equal, a better hitter will win a Gold Glove, but they certainly aren't handed out to bad fielders.

[Jason Harris 31]

Not to get off topic but as for the GOAT discussions, sorry guys but Babe Ruth is easily the best hitter of all time, like it's not even a debate. He was so far ahead of everyone else at the time it's ridiculous, he was hitting more HR's than entire teams.

This is an age-old debate, obviously, but I put more stock in the modern athlete, particularly in baseball.

If you just think about four players who would be included in the discussion -- Bonds, Griffey, Mays, A-Rod -- but would not have been allowed to play during Ruth's era, it illustrates that the competition was nowhere near as strong earlier. Add to that night games, multiple pitches, relief pitchers, better gloves, rule changes regarding hits, air/time zone travel, advanced and video analysis, and it's hard to imagine a top player of today being dropped into a lineup 80 years ago doing anything but crushing the records.

I understand how amazing Ruth was compared to his contemporaries, and realize he would have been so much better if he were able to train with modern techniques, but I've seen footage where he literally jumps into the pitch like a softball hitter. Nobody could do that against 95 MPH pitches, so it wouldn't surprise me if the flamethrowers of the 1920's were throwing 85 MPH. Again, I understand everything is relative, but that implies today's athletes are performing at a higher level.

Another way to look at it is would anyone disagree, purely based on world records, that the top swimmers and track athletes have generally competed during the past 10-15 years? Or that 15 years from now we'll probably be able to make the same statement? If so, why would athletes in team sports who started playing 90 years ago be better than athletes of today?

[Chadd 916]

I thought the discussion about the Greatest Player of All-Time. If it's purely hitting, it would be a long argument between Ruth and Williams (with an asterisk for era). However, for a question of player, Ruth earns extra points for having a 94-46 record as a pitcher, while Bonds earns points for 8 Gold Gloves and 500 steals. Willie Mays also earns points for his fielding and speed.

Gold gloves aren't handed out to the best fielders and haven't been for quite some time.

I know some believe that when two players' fielding is deemed equal, a better hitter will win a Gold Glove, but they certainly aren't handed out to bad fielders.

Explain how Bonds has won 8 gold gloves. He has never had an even average arm and his mobility has become roughly equivalent to a statue. I'm sure someone will bring up his outfield assists, but those are inflated because everyone and their handicapped grandmother ran on him.

[sabre09923 0]

The only outfielder in recent memory that has won gold gloves and deserved it is Ichiro. That guy is an absolute freak... His arm and his mobility are outstanding. I remember watching a Sox game last year and he threw a strike from the warning track over at Safeco. My jaw hit the floor in an instant.

[Jason Harris 31]

Explain how Bonds has won 8 gold gloves. He has never had an even average arm and his mobility has become roughly equivalent to a statue. I'm sure someone will bring up his outfield assists, but those are inflated because everyone and their handicapped grandmother ran on him.

I don't follow the NL, so I really don't know. I know that people generally accorded him with being the best left fielder in baseball at the time. Plus the last time he won, he was 33, so he used to have much more range.

[barrett 0]

Andruw Jones has always been an outstanding fielder as well.

[Thockey17 1]

The only outfielder in recent memory that has won gold gloves and deserved it is Ichiro.

Torii Hunter, Jeter, Andruw Jones, Mike Cameron, etc etc ec.

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

I thought I had heard Andruw Jones' D has suffered for quite a while now...I don't watch the Braves, but I remember reading an article saying that he has been very overrated for a while now. Mack?

[LkptTiger 1]

His game in the field is still strong. He reads the ball extremely well off the bat and covers a lot of ground...especially in the gaps. He doesn't seem to come in on balls as well as he used to, but he's still more than competent where that aspect is concerned. His arm, as far as I am concerned, has always been and continues to be above average.

It's his work with the bat that has gone downhill, but everyone knew that...

[mik3 1]

I thought I had heard Andruw Jones' D has suffered for quite a while now...I don't watch the Braves, but I remember reading an article saying that he has been very overrated for a while now. Mack?

You'd be right. If you've noticed he's had to make a lot more diving catches the last few years.

Most people think diving catches by an outfielder are good things, they usually mean he had a horrible break on the ball, especially a center fielder.

Coco Crisp is pretty much the AL posterboy for this. He's an above average fielder, but he's a left fielder playing center field, he doesn't read the ball well. IMO one of the best CFers in baseball is Mark Kotsay. He has a strong arm and makes everything look easy.

And about Bonds, he was a CFer that played LF 'cause he had a bad arm, even for a CFer. Even though Sid Bream was out.

[Flack38 0]

Rumors are Bonds is also saying he will play next year as well. I don't understand why he won't go to the AL, he would be a devastating DH for 2-3 more years at least. The guy still can get on base better than anyone in baseball.

Not to get off topic but as for the GOAT discussions, sorry guys but Babe Ruth is easily the best hitter of all time, like it's not even a debate. He was so far ahead of everyone else at the time it's ridiculous, he was hitting more HR's than entire teams.

Babe also had more strike outs than anyone. I would also have to say pitching then isn't anywhere near what it is today, guys are just stronger, faster and a lot smarter. Babe was great for his time though.

Ok, lets take a poll of American League GM's and ask them if they would rather have Barry Bonds in his prime or a player who will lead the league in strikeouts...but will also out homer every single TEAM in the AL, as Babe did in 1927. Oh yeah and this player also happens to have thrown 29 2/3rds consecutive shutout innings in the World Series.

Are we also going to hop in a time machine and play during the most anachronous, cooked and segregated time in sports history?

If Josh Gibson played MLB Babe wouldn't have been seen as the era's best player.

Barry would still need to hit about another 50 home runs to reach Gibson's total of around 800.

Please show me in ANY era where a guy can have the type of year Gibson had in 1934 where he hit 69 Home Runs and had a .467 batting average.

If someone put up those numbers today, would you say he was juiced? This guy did it back in the early 30's

[Chadd 916]

If you want to say Ruth played against inferior talent, then you have to admit that Gibson was playing against an even less talented group overall. Despite integration it took a long time for african american players to become a significant percentage of major league rosters. It's not a knock on the players, they just didn't have the same opportunities growing up during segregation.

[mack 44]

I thought I had heard Andruw Jones' D has suffered for quite a while now...I don't watch the Braves, but I remember reading an article saying that he has been very overrated for a while now. Mack?

When he was younger (odd since he's not even old now) he could gamble and catch up to balls but it's started to noticeably slip the last couple of seasons. That and more run on him because he's not able to cut balls off (lol emasculate) early and get a jump on runners.

As for Chadd's point about Bonds getting easy assists because everyone runs on him, it's about as true a statement as you'll see on the board here. This is why Rickey Henderson was overrated with his assists.

[Flack38 0]

If you want to say Ruth played against inferior talent, then you have to admit that Gibson was playing against an even less talented group overall. Despite integration it took a long time for african american players to become a significant percentage of major league rosters. It's not a knock on the players, they just didn't have the same opportunities growing up during segregation.

Look at the stats of anyone who crossed over from the Negro League, they IMPROVED when they went over into MLB, probably excluding Satchel Paige who was 42 years old his rookie season of MLB.

On a side note, The Yankees found DiMaggio fit for the majors when a yankee scout said “DIMAGGIO EVERYTHING WE’D HOPED HE’D BE: HIT SATCH ONE FOR FOUR.”

That league was not "Worse" than MLB, infact it was better.

[mik3 1]

I thought I had heard Andruw Jones' D has suffered for quite a while now...I don't watch the Braves, but I remember reading an article saying that he has been very overrated for a while now. Mack?

When he was younger (odd since he's not even old now) he could gamble and catch up to balls but it's started to noticeably slip the last couple of seasons. That and more run on him because he's not able to cut balls off (lol emasculate) early and get a jump on runners.

As for Chadd's point about Bonds getting easy assists because everyone runs on him, it's about as true a statement as you'll see on the board here. This is why Rickey Henderson was overrated with his assists.

Yep, but at the same time you also see guys getting insane amounts of assists 'cause there isn't a good report on them. Just look at Frenchy's rookie year. Mark Teahan this year also comes to mind.