Grafs: too much skate for a novice skater?

[the1gwiz 0]

Hey all! Long-time lurker here who is just about to hit the ice for the first time looking for advice on my first pair of skates.

After many attempts at finding the perfect fit for my oddly-shaped foot (narrow heel, VERY wide at the toes, high instep size 6.5 or 7 depending on manufacturer), I've found that the only stock boots out there right now that fit me well are RBK's and Grafs, particularly the 709 (and possibly the G70, or so I've been told.) In doing some reading up and inquiring on the Grafs, though, I've heard that these skates aren't really the way to go for a new skater. I'm hoping the learned crew here at MHS can give me some tips!

Are Grafs too stiff a skate on which to learn? If Grafs aren't the way to go, how do top of the line RBK's compare to their entry level pumps (the 5k range) for a new skater/player?

Background: I'm 5'7", 175 lbs. I have some roller experience (forward) but have only skated on ice at a very basic, recreational level. I'm looking to get into league play down the line and hope to be skating several times a week before too long. As far as budget is concerned, I'd like to keep costs down, but if a big money skate is what's going to do it for me, I'll be happy to bite the bullet and fork it over.

Thanks in advance for any help!

[Law Goalie 147]

Well, the 609 is the moderately-priced version of the 709, so that might be a good place to look. It will, however, not last nearly as long or feel nearly as good on the foot as a 709.

Just FYI, the G9 is a lightened-up, slightly stiffer version of the 709, which had some early-run durability problems. The G70 is not quite the same fit as the 709/G9 - it's noticeably shallower across the arch, though much stiffer and lighter again.

If your toes are really that wide, you'll probably need to get the toe-cap stretched wider and/or punched out on any of those skates, but that's relatively easy to do with Graf, as I understand.

Others may be able to correct me, but the idea that new skaters shouldn't buy top-grade skates is something of a myth. A new skater may not *need* a top-grade skate simply because they won't stick with the sport, or may play so infrequently that anything would have worked.

My advice would be to find a skate that fits, first and foremost, then decide if you want to get the best and pay the most or compromise a bit for price.

[the1gwiz 0]

Thanks for the info, Law. I've been trying to track down some 609's, but I can't find a soul who still has them available, neither at local stores nor online. I was not aware that the G70's were shallower; that's a big deal for me, as most foot pain I've had in the past was caused by just that.

[Law Goalie 147]

They're worth trying on, for sure, but they were an absolute no-go for me for exactly that reason. They may well work for you: there have been a few guys who settled on G70s after going through the typical deep-foot suite of Flexlites, x090s and the Graf '9 series.

[Reaper 0]

The 609 is no longer in production by GRAF Canada. Unless you know someone in Europe who is coming to visit you and bring you the absolute correct fit of 609 you may as well buy the 709. The shipping costs would obliterate any savings of buying 609s over 709s.

[deadmanjolt 1]

Friend who went from Vector Pro's to RBK 5k's loves his new skates, no complaints at all. And for a new skater, they are probably stiff enough to last you a few seasons while your skating strength builds up.

[shifter 0]

how about some rbk 4k's? Its a nice decent skate for a beginner too. I don't think you should go through the graf route cuz you need the ankle support in grafs

[DamnLocust 0]

plenty of support in the 709s. Lower cut boots, but very stiff. Since you've been skating for roller, you shouldn't have too much of a problem with them. The heel of a 709 may be a bit wide for you if your heels are on the narrower side.

what kind of skates do you use for roller, and how do you find the fit of those?

[rwclifto 0]

Others may be able to correct me, but the idea that new skaters shouldn't buy top-grade skates is something of a myth. A new skater may not *need* a top-grade skate simply because they won't stick with the sport, or may play so infrequently that anything would have worked.

I agree. I've played roller my whole life, and recently switched to ice. I'm using One90s, and though they were stiff as hell at first, I've had no problems transitioning straight to top of the line skates.

[Hockeydog 8]

RBK's will be too wide in the heel. I am also looking to switch back to Grafs and have a narrow heel and wide forefoot. Your heel will swim in RBK's- I have a pair of 5K's and can attest to that fact. I can say that I learned to skate period on a pair of 704's. I don't think it held me back other than the fact that the LHS fit me a size too long. I have a fairly high instep and the 704's were borderline in that dept. for me. I am thinking the 737 may be the right one for me and have a question posted on the other active Graf thread, so keep an eye out for that one as I will.

[the1gwiz 0]

what kind of skates do you use for roller, and how do you find the fit of those?

It's been years since I've skated competitively on any level, and the only pair of rollers I ever bought were cheap models from Herman's in the Douglaston Plaza shopping center many moons ago. DamnLocust, as a Queens guy, you may remember it :P So that won't help me much, unfortunately.

RBK's will be too wide in the heel. I am also looking to switch back to Grafs and have a narrow heel and wide forefoot. Your heel will swim in RBK's- I have a pair of 5K's and can attest to that fact.

Hockeydog, are those 5k pumps? If so, I'm guessing the pump mechanism doesn't help lock down your heel enough?

Thanks for the advice and opinions, all!

[kovalchuk71 212]

The pump wont do anything if the skates don't fit your foot correctly in the first place.

[the1gwiz 0]

The pump wont do anything if the skates don't fit your foot correctly in the first place.

Well, naturally... but with only a slight give in the heel, as I experienced while trying on 5k's, if only briefly, will the pump help noticeably?

[kovalchuk71 212]

Why didn't you pump them and see if it did?

[the1gwiz 0]

Why didn't you pump them and see if it did?

I was hoping for more of a "skating for 60 minutes" perspective than a "walking around the store for 15 minutes" perspective.

[kovalchuk71 212]

True, but did you notice your heel locking down more once you pumped them in the store? No one can tell you how they feel after skating for 60 minutes as everyones foot is different. If you did not pump them in the store, go try them on again and pump them. Walk around and see if they hold your ankle into place a tad more.

Chris

[wonderenzo 0]

Mission 90ag. Narrower in the heel, wide in the forefoot. if it doesnt look like it fits, ask to bake it.

[epstud74 24]

Mission 90ag. Narrower in the heel, wide in the forefoot. if it doesnt look like it fits, ask to bake it.

The aggressive forward pitch may be a bit tougher for beginning skaters learn on. I'm not sure, but a friend of mine wears an identical size to me in skates, had only been skating for 6-7 months and could not skate at all in one of my Graf 707s.

[flyguy1697 0]

RBK's will be too wide in the heel. I am also looking to switch back to Grafs and have a narrow heel and wide forefoot. Your heel will swim in RBK's- I have a pair of 5K's and can attest to that fact. I can say that I learned to skate period on a pair of 704's. I don't think it held me back other than the fact that the LHS fit me a size too long. I have a fairly high instep and the 704's were borderline in that dept. for me. I am thinking the 737 may be the right one for me and have a question posted on the other active Graf thread, so keep an eye out for that one as I will.

That is not always true, I have worn Bauer Supreme's and Vapors, Grafs, Tacks and just recently switched to rbk's. I have a very narrow heel and my simple fix is using the pump. In all honesty its personal preference. I have thought that my Grafs were the least stiff and easiest to break in right out of the box with my bauers being the hardest. I like the Pumps because they give me a snug fit around my foot and thats what I like in skates.

[duch 0]

It's true a stiffer skate is not always the best to learn on. You are definitely better off with a middle of the line skate. But once you do start skating half decently to the point your very sure of yourself it's sometimes difficult to step down to a middle of the line skate. I've had a few occassions where I've stepped down a notch or two but really miss the stiffness. In fact in my case the stiffer the better now. I would be right at home in Easton Composite Z-Airs or Bauer 7000's two of the stiffest skates made in recent years. I guess my point is you'll get better so if you have a good skate from the get go, it will at least last you until you get your skating up to par and beyond. I've always said you can't beat buying a quality product because it works out better in the long run.

[Hockeydog 8]

I didn't find the pump in the 5K to be that effective, and at least in mine I found myself having to pump them during a game, they leaked a bit. The bladder just adds space around the anklebone, not all the way to the bottom of the heel.

I guess every foot is different, and it may work for some narrow heels. It wasn't too bad in my case but mot as good as a correctly fitted skate. And yes often times you find out things about a skate after skating for a while that you can't feel just standing around for 15 min.

[Zac911 317]

i am a firm believer in buying something once. if you skate enough times a week, it fits the best, and you are happy- that is all that really matters. the only thing i will say on the subject is that please...please...please do not buy the most expensive skate you can find thinking it will make you a better skater.

[the1gwiz 0]

Thanks for the tips, everyone. After a couple of hours at DarkStar50's shop trying on practically every boot in the store, I'm still at square one. Ranging from too narrow at the toes causing extreme discomfort (Missions, even RBK's after spending some more quality time in the boot) to too shallow of a boot to the point that my ankle was too high to even lace properly (Supreme 70's), my search continues! Still hoping to get into a Graf at some point soon. Right now, they might be my only hope, despite the learning curve for a new skater.

[Luckystrike 0]

Thanks for the tips, everyone. After a couple of hours at DarkStar50's shop trying on practically every boot in the store, I'm still at square one. Ranging from too narrow at the toes causing extreme discomfort (Missions, even RBK's after spending some more quality time in the boot) to too shallow of a boot to the point that my ankle was too high to even lace properly (Supreme 70's), my search continues! Still hoping to get into a Graf at some point soon. Right now, they might be my only hope, despite the learning curve for a new skater.

There's really no reason to think that just because you are new to the game that you aren't good enough for Graf's. I thought that way for many years and it was really only because I saw only good players wearing them. But at the end of the day, they're just skates like all the other brands. There's nothing that makes them any more special for good players. If they fit the best, get em and don't think twice about your decision. I switched to them from Easton's this year and it was the best decision I ever made. The only reason I didn't do it years ago was because of this myth that seems to surround the brand that they are only for high end players.

[DarkStar50 679]

I helped the1gwiz yesterday. Unfortunately, the top of his foot is extremely high. The spread on the laces on Supreme 50 and Supreme 70 in EE width was over 3" across the tongue. That is a pro style spread but the skates were barely tied snug tight. He is having a difficult time with finding the right boot regardless of price to fit him. If CCM was still making Tacks, he might be able to make it work with those boots. Finding last year's Tacks is now just about impossible.