Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[goblue9280 33]

My understanding (but no means an expert):

Then you are setting a fixed depth of the grind (correct?) The less material in the width of the blade the less the angle of the edge itself, causing more bite.

No, it's not a fixed depth. The depth will be determined by the width of the blade, just like with a standard ROH sharpen. The angle of the edges on the FBV will not change, but the width of the angled edges will be determined by the wdith of the blade.

who doesn't have that wheel dead center. You're going to reduce one edge or the other in thickness even more.

Does any one see where I'm going with this?

As long as the blade is in plane with the sharpening wheel, then if the blade is not dead center to the wheel, you'll end up with one edge higher than the other... just like a standard ROH sharpening. This will be checked with an edge gauge and corrected if need be.

[JR Boucicaut 3793]

How's your spark displacement? Could be that you don't have a good dress.

OK, I finally tried to sharpen my first pair of skates on my X01 (thanks to the nice guys at Stevenson's Source for Sports in Orillia who gave me a free pair of beater skates).

However, I seem to be at an impasse. No matter how many passes I make, I can't seem to get a hollow onto the runners - they look flat, even when put against a straight edge (can't see much light between them), and they feel flat to my fingers.

I have put my spinner up against the wheel, and the "hollow" matches fairly well - can't see much light between them. But it looks like the wheel isn't putting any hollow on the runners. I know I am taking steel off the runners because they were very rusty when I got them, and now they are gleaming.

The only way I can see this happening is if my blade were narrow than the width of the flat in the FBV, but this seems unlikely ? I have no idea what make the skates are... it was a sort of plastic-y shell with no company markings that I could identify.

Does this make any sense ? Am I missing something completely obvious, or doing something really stupid ?

[Blunt_Force_Trauma 0]

I think it is better to be more concerned with the person doing the sharpening than the machine and stones they are using.

Agreed! ;)

[Chadd 916]

Without trying to sound like an absolute skeptic, as who wouldn't be completely enticed by greater speed, efficiency and control, especially as there are very few negative comments about FBV in this thread, (admittedly only read the first 35 pages and then skipped the last 10),

There is nothing wrong with being a skeptic, only with those who have an agenda and claim to be a skeptic to hide their agenda. I am notoriously skeptical about the claims manufacturers make, but my experience with the product made me a believer.

BUT... I have some issue, not with the result or even the theory of this 'technology', but more the practicality or perhaps the potential issues with FBV, like consistency. There are alot of comments on how their new FBV grind performed and a lot of differentiating results on some of the very same grinds. And how does one know if the grind they say they were given, is actually what they received?

The same way you know with a traditional ROH sharpening. Either you trust them, or you don't, technology has nothing to do with that.

Wouldn't the very thickness of ones blade determine what FBV grind they should be given in relation to their old ROH?

I mean the flat is a constant .090" or .100" inch, so the only variable can be how much material is left in the width. ( I haven't yet, but will be measuring a couple of pairs when I get home).

Then you are setting a fixed depth of the grind (correct?) The less material in the width of the blade the less the angle of the edge itself, causing more bite.

According to the chart more flat width = more bite.

More flat at the top does not equal more bite. You're taking multiple measurements and their relationship and drawing an incorrect assumption based on one factor.

I would have to assume that there is a large variance in steel from mfg. to mfg. and even skate to skate, so even a minute change in thickness, .005", .010", .020" has to affect your edge or bite outcome. I mean the only available change between the flat grind is only ten thousands of an inch or .005" thousands per side (of center).

I have yet to see a skate where the steel thickness has been so far out of the norm that it has made a significant difference. And even if it did, you simply try another hollow to find the one that works for you.

Now take your local 16 yo Sportchek employee who doesn't have that wheel dead center. You're going to reduce one edge or the other in thickness even more.

Does any one see where I'm going with this?

A bad sharpener will screw up any hollow. I see it happen all the time with traditional ROH sharpenings. The spinner makes it less likely to screw up dressing the wheel, but to quote Ron White; "You can't fix stupid."

Don't get me wrong, obviously i can't judge until I try it, and hopefully take advantage of the supposed benefits, but it just seems to me that the good ol ROH would be a little more forgiving in terms of consistency, and we all know how well that has worked out.

If someone butchers a skate so badly that you can't skate on an FBV sharpening, you would have the same problem with ROH.

So at $10.00 bucks a crack, is this fool proof or is it going to cost $40.00 to get it right?

I don't think anyone should be charging more for it, but that's their business.

Also, (please don't slam the messenger) but I was told by my LHS (the only reputable shop in town that I would trust to tune my Dialysis machine, if they did that), that the FBV technology has been around since the 80's.

And that there have been attachments around for sharpeners etc... etc... that had never taken off in the past... ecomomics and all that.

nuff said, and that in advance for the constructive criticism.

Much of the technology has been used in machining and manufacturing, but what does that to do with skate sharpening or the validity of the end result? The concept that created the spinner is unrelated to the FBV. Other than the fact that the spinner allowed the FBV to come into existence.

You have hit almost every negative from the Blademaster marketing materials. It sure sounds like the shop you trust has an agenda against the FBV and I tend not to trust people with an agenda.

[Blunt_Force_Trauma 0]

My understanding (but no means an expert):

No, it's not a fixed depth. The depth will be determined by the width of the blade, just like with a standard ROH sharpen. The angle of the edges on the FBV will not change, but the width of the angled edges will be determined by the wdith of the blade.

Understand... the angle doesn't change, but the depth does. Wouldn't this affect or create an inconsistency from skate to skate, or what the effect of a specific grind is supposed for a particular blade. If the edge has become deeper or shallower alone based on the actual width of the steel, would it not then influence how much the edge will sink into the ice to meet the flat surface, causing more or less bite, regardless of what the edge angle was intended for.

Sorry, not trying to argue, just trying to get clarity on how or why this works and possibly make a point that any said grind ex. 100/75 will actually vary your edge bite as determined by the blade width (the wider the deeper), not necessarily a fixed result as suggested by 100/75

As long as the blade is in plane with the sharpening wheel, then if the blade is not dead center to the wheel, you'll end up with one edge higher than the other... just like a standard ROH sharpening. This will be checked with an edge gauge and corrected if need be.

This makes sense... agreed

Please disregard my last post...

Chadd you have shed enough light on the topic and I agree with what you're saying.

Unfortunately for me you're faster at typing

Either it works or it doesn't...

[Chadd 916]

Either it works for you or it doesn't...

Oh it works alright, the question is if you like it.

[Composite Freak 0]

Aside from 'who' is doing the sharpening and all that junk, I get FBV and I like it a lot.

I wasn't unhappy with the other style though and as mentioned, I have never had a bad sharpening from the place I go.

I cannot say if I am faster but I find it to be very stable overall and I have no problem getting right on my edges. I am a rep hockey coach and skating instructor so I push the limits all the time to exaggerate and show the kids what they need to do and I am confident with the FBV to push the envelope farther and farther.

When I first got my daughter's skates done (13 year old rep hockey player), I didn't tell her. She didn't notice or feel like her skates weren't sharpened properly, still probably hasn't to this day, and I think that's a good thing. She may be a bit faster but she is clearly more smooth on her edges (which I don't think was the intention of the FBV in the first place but that seems to be the result we have found).

So, that's my experience and I'm very pleased with it.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

Thanks JR, but I am not sure what you mean by spark displacement. What should I be looking for, and when ? The sparks seem to mostly go to the left of the skate. I will admit that how long the spinner should contact the wheel is a bit of a mystery to me. The videos make it seem like you just need to touch the wheel to the spinner briefly a few times.

How's your spark displacement?

Could be that you don't have a good dress.

If the hollow on the wheel matches the hollow on the spinner (as mine, roughly, appears to do), even after a few passes, doesn't that mean the wheel is fully dressed, or is there something more to it ?

Thanks again JR.

OK, I finally tried to sharpen my first pair of skates on my X01 (thanks to the nice guys at Stevenson's Source for Sports in Orillia who gave me a free pair of beater skates).

However, I seem to be at an impasse. No matter how many passes I make, I can't seem to get a hollow onto the runners - they look flat, even when put against a straight edge (can't see much light between them), and they feel flat to my fingers.

I have put my spinner up against the wheel, and the "hollow" matches fairly well - can't see much light between them. But it looks like the wheel isn't putting any hollow on the runners. I know I am taking steel off the runners because they were very rusty when I got them, and now they are gleaming.

The only way I can see this happening is if my blade were narrow than the width of the flat in the FBV, but this seems unlikely ? I have no idea what make the skates are... it was a sort of plastic-y shell with no company markings that I could identify.

Does this make any sense ? Am I missing something completely obvious, or doing something really stupid ?

Edited February 9, 2010 by NuggyBuggy

[chiefs17 2]

Nuggy, are you doing an FBV or a regular hollow? If you are doing an FBV then the blades will look flat, even using a straight edge and looking for light. Try dressing the wheel a little more if you are still not getting a hollow. If you're starting with a new wheel it will need more than a few light touches with the spinner.

Thanks JR, but I am not sure what you mean by spark displacement. What should I be looking for, and when ? The sparks seem to mostly go to the left of the skate. I will admit that how long the spinner should contact the wheel is a bit of a mystery to me. The videos make it seem like you just need to touch the wheel to the spinner briefly a few times.

If the hollow on the wheel matches the hollow on the spinner (as mine, roughly, appears to do), even after a few passes, doesn't that mean the wheel is fully dressed, or is there something more to it ?

Thanks again JR.

[JR Boucicaut 3793]

Spark displacement is the pattern the sparks go when you make contact. You can tell a lot by it by the thickness and the strength of the sparks. Obviously if your holder is off, it will be too high or too low. And as far as a good dress is concerned, if it is a thick, long spark, it's a good dress. If it is weak and doesn't travel far, chances are you have a bad dress.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

[

If someone butchers a skate so badly that you can't skate on an FBV sharpening, you would have the same problem with ROH.

I don't think anyone should be charging more for it, but that's their business.

Much of the technology has been used in machining and manufacturing, but what does that to do with skate sharpening or the validity of the end result? The concept that created the spinner is unrelated to the FBV. Other than the fact that the spinner allowed the FBV to come into existence.

Chadd....how can you say they shouldn't charge anymore? That makes no sense an FBV spinner is upwards of 4 times the price of a regular diamond? All you need is one oops from a good employee never mind a younger one and there goes 80 plus dollars not 12 or 20?

How can you possibly say you cant charge anymore? If doing an FBV properly and most importantly for the first time it takes longer to make sure the edges are good?

It has been said in mainstream media about it being the same price and i totally disagree. I dont think 10 is right but 7 is not out of line at all.

[lerxst 0]

Price is a relative thing as they say. I thought I read where the FBV holds an edge longer, therefore you would need less sharpenings, reducing your total cost of ownership. Additionally, I don't see why you would offer the FBV as the same price as ROH. You have a differentiated product/service, which commands a premium, how much is really the question.

[Chadd 916]

Chadd....how can you say they shouldn't charge anymore? That makes no sense an FBV spinner is upwards of 4 times the price of a regular diamond? All you need is one oops from a good employee never mind a younger one and there goes 80 plus dollars not 12 or 20?

How can you possibly say you cant charge anymore? If doing an FBV properly and most importantly for the first time it takes longer to make sure the edges are good?

It would have to be a pretty major "oops". Feel free to disagree with me, it's just my opinion.

Price is a relative thing as they say. I thought I read where the FBV holds an edge longer, therefore you would need less sharpenings, reducing your total cost of ownership. Additionally, I don't see why you would offer the FBV as the same price as ROH. You have a differentiated product/service, which commands a premium, how much is really the question.

I find that I need to do my skates a bit more often with FBV.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

Gentlemen, thank you.

Nuggy, are you doing an FBV or a regular hollow? If you are doing an FBV then the blades will look flat, even using a straight edge and looking for light. Try dressing the wheel a little more if you are still not getting a hollow. If you're starting with a new wheel it will need more than a few light touches with the spinner.

chiefs17, I'm doing an FBV hollow. I used what the Blackstone guys suggested would give the most bite, IIRC (as I do not have the sharpener with me) 90/75. What you say makes sense, however, neither the spinner nor the wheel looks flat to my eye; I'm quite sure if I held an edge to the spinner I'd see light underneath it. If I do everything right, if I look at the spinner in profile, it should look exactly the same as the runner in profile, correct ?

Spark displacement is the pattern the sparks go when you make contact. You can tell a lot by it by the thickness and the strength of the sparks. Obviously if your holder is off, it will be too high or too low. And as far as a good dress is concerned, if it is a thick, long spark, it's a good dress. If it is weak and doesn't travel far, chances are you have a bad dress.

Ahh, I see. What defines a "bad dress" - Does it mean that the wheel has not properly taken on the hollow of the spinner ? Is the difference in spark pattern due to more or less steel being taken off ?

To my untrained eye, the trail of sparks looks fairly thick and long, but I have no experience to compare it to. Either the Blackstone videos or my salesperson suggested that I could tell when the skates were ready for the final pass when the sparks are going more vertical than horizontal. Is that correct ?

Thanks guys !

Edited February 10, 2010 by NuggyBuggy

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

It would have to be a pretty major "oops". Feel free to disagree with me, it's just my opinion.

I find that I need to do my skates a bit more often with FBV.

Yah sorry i have to disagree......

And the oops can happen easily if someone goes to put on a new wheel and forgets to change the fbv diamond and leaves say a 100/75.

[McDougalfaschnitzer 32]

Heads up to any New Jersey residents...FBV is now available at The Ice Vault in Wayne, NJ.

[jjameson 0]

We can now get the FBV in Atlanta! New shop just opened up and I cant say enough good things about them!

Sticktime Hockey Co

2615 George Busbee Pkwy Suite #13

Kennesaw, GA, 30144

Phone: 770-420-2929

[english15x 3]

Place in pittsburgh that offers FBV. Real nice guy too.

Hockey N'at

102 Lexington Ave

Aspinwall, PA 15215

(412) PUCK-GUY

[skarbro 0]

On price, Sport Chek charges the same amount for FBV as regular sharpenings. I get the 10 for $30 card so it only costs me $3 per sharpening. I can understand why a lot of places charge a bit extra for FBV (since it's harder to find), but it's nice to be able to get it for the same price as regular.

And I have to agree with Chadd. I have to sharpen my skates a little more frequently (not much mind you) with FBV. I just keep using my Miraclestone to keep it clean as long as possible.

[chiefs17 2]

Hey Nuggy, can you measure the thickness of the blades on those cheapie skates you are experimenting with? You would need to use a micrometer or calipers, or some other precision measuring tool. I'll bet the steel on those skates is less than .100" thick. That's why you don't see any FBV "fangs", or light when you hold a straight edge up to it. You've practiced making passes on a pair of junk skates, time to step up to the real deal. Don't worry it's not that hard, go for it!

Gentlemen, thank you.

chiefs17, I'm doing an FBV hollow. I used what the Blackstone guys suggested would give the most bite, IIRC (as I do not have the sharpener with me) 90/75. What you say makes sense, however, neither the spinner nor the wheel looks flat to my eye; I'm quite sure if I held an edge to the spinner I'd see light underneath it. If I do everything right, if I look at the spinner in profile, it should look exactly the same as the runner in profile, correct ?

Ahh, I see. What defines a "bad dress" - Does it mean that the wheel has not properly taken on the hollow of the spinner ? Is the difference in spark pattern due to more or less steel being taken off ?

To my untrained eye, the trail of sparks looks fairly thick and long, but I have no experience to compare it to. Either the Blackstone videos or my salesperson suggested that I could tell when the skates were ready for the final pass when the sparks are going more vertical than horizontal. Is that correct ?

Thanks guys !

[NuggyBuggy 0]

Hey Nuggy, can you measure the thickness of the blades on those cheapie skates you are experimenting with? You would need to use a micrometer or calipers, or some other precision measuring tool. I'll bet the steel on those skates is less than .100" thick. That's why you don't see any FBV "fangs", or light when you hold a straight edge up to it. You've practiced making passes on a pair of junk skates, time to step up to the real deal. Don't worry it's not that hard, go for it!

Ahh... this was something I suspected earlier, but I thought improbable... otherwise sharpeners might need to measure the width of incoming steel to make sure they're wide enough, no ?

Unfortunately the skates and my sharpener are 2-h away, at the cottage. Guess I'll have to buy a micrometer or caliper. The funny thing was, I was looking at some very cheap Starrett micrometers on Ebay (was looking for their squares first), but then thought "WTH would I ever need that for ?" :D

Edited February 10, 2010 by NuggyBuggy

[TBLfan 25]

Micrometers are useful, if not just a cool tool to have... But you could likely take the skates to a mechanic and borrow theirs for the measurement.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

TBL, you're probably right. If the skates were with me, I could just have our engineer take a look at them.

I've been on a tool-buying binge (it all started when I was looking for a bench for my X01, couldn't find anything decent, then decided to take up wood-working just to build my own :P ), and the one I was watching looked cool. I just couldn't figure out what I'd do with it, so I let the auction end. Now all the Starretts are 10-15x more than what that one went for

[TBLfan 25]

At least you didn't lose a $250 Mitutoyo micrometer you already had. For the life of me I can't find it. :(

[chiefs17 2]

If you're looking for a cheap pair, try Harbor Freight. This one's hard to beat for $20.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Disp...?itemnumber=895

Starrett is nice if you can afford it and need it every day, but for what we're doing these Cen Tech's are fine.

Ahh... this was something I suspected earlier, but I thought improbable... otherwise sharpeners might need to measure the width of incoming steel to make sure they're wide enough, no ?

Unfortunately the skates and my sharpener are 2-h away, at the cottage. Guess I'll have to buy a micrometer or caliper. The funny thing was, I was looking at some very cheap Starrett micrometers on Ebay (was looking for their squares first), but then thought "WTH would I ever need that for ?" :D