Low vs Mid Kickpoint

[MLSman 22]

Kick point refers to the portion of the shaft where bend or flex is localized when force is applied. From a statics standpoint, where the hands are placed makes a difference, as distance affects torque. The rigidity of a shaft can be altered at certain points by change in material used and other factors like the cross sectional design (ellipses). Intersubway made a point earlier saying that the lower the KP, the faster the load and quicker a shooter can reach the maximum potential of the twig, think pendulums and the relation between radius and oscillatory frequency, or guitar strings. As the KP is moved higher, the potential increases at the expense of load time.

With a uniform piece of shaft, it would make sense that the KP be exactly in the center. Now you add in variables like purposeful alteration of engineering and the fact that there exists a blade on the end of the shaft.

Now we know that the flex of a shaft refers to the amount of force in lbs or kg it takes to bend the shaft 1 inch. It would make sense that the flex be lowest if tested at the KP.

I'm not sure if what I wrote even makes sense. I was an engineering major. Engineers are notorious for having a hard time communicating their ideas to a normal population.

Damn... I would have guessed you were working as an engineer in golf shaft design. To me it seems that when you read specs on fujikura and aldila, they seem to be more accurate on kickpoint than on hockey shafts, but with that said, they have less surface area to work with. Simple engineering dictates, as you so eloquently stated, that any surface would collapse at the weakest point and an equal surface would bend in the middle. This is for the most part what you see as the generic difference between a standard shaft and a tapered shaft. Standard shafts tend to be mid kickpoint as they are uniformly shaped. A tapered shaft has a reduced surface area at the bottom of the shaft, thus lowering the localzation of the kickpoint.

[interpathway 9]

Damn... I would have guessed you were working as an engineer in golf shaft design. To me it seems that when you read specs on fujikura and aldila, they seem to be more accurate on kickpoint than on hockey shafts, but with that said, they have less surface area to work with. Simple engineering dictates, as you so eloquently stated, that any surface would collapse at the weakest point and an equal surface would bend in the middle. This is for the most part what you see as the generic difference between a standard shaft and a tapered shaft. Standard shafts tend to be mid kickpoint as they are uniformly shaped. A tapered shaft has a reduced surface area at the bottom of the shaft, thus lowering the localzation of the kickpoint.

I believe this is why tapered shafts are reinforced (like on the S17 ellipse) in the tapered zone. A concentrated amount of slashes, players falling on your stick, and pucks shot at the net that deflect off your stick are focused on the bottom third of your shaft. This tapering weakens this point so that the KP is lower, but it also raises a ton of durability issues for the consumer buying retail sticks (this of course does not apply to a pro using countless numbers of PS sticks).

[MLSman 22]

Right, and that explains why tapered vs. standard in the same flex rating will feel different, the tapered being the stiffer of the two. Less deflection is felt in the hands so the shaft doesn't feel like it's flexing nearly as much.

So when a tapered shaft is desinged to flex more in the tpaer area and has a very stiff taper area....

One other MAJOR point of demarkation....

Everyone holds their bottom hand in a different spot, thus modifying both the degree of bend and the kickpoint.

[minwookie 0]

Right, and that explains why tapered vs. standard in the same flex rating will feel different, the tapered being the stiffer of the two. Less deflection is felt in the hands so the shaft doesn't feel like it's flexing nearly as much.

So when a tapered shaft is desinged to flex more in the tpaer area and has a very stiff taper area....

One other MAJOR point of demarkation....

Everyone holds their bottom hand in a different spot, thus modifying both the degree of bend and the kickpoint.

A valid point as well. Rustpot hit it on the head saying that a lower KP shaft should feel more stiff due to the flex not being felt between the hands.

Tapering is a method to increase flex without taking too much of a hit to durability (ability to handle slashes) by needing thinner shaft walls.

[interpathway 9]

Tapering is a method to increase flex without taking too much of a hit to durability (ability to handle slashes) by needing thinner shaft walls.

The durability of the upper part of a shaft. The durability of the taper zone is the same, if not worse, than in a non-tapered shaft. The main problem with this is that the taper zone is where the majority of bumps and bruises occur in a hockey game to a shaft.

[Rustpot 1]

Tapering is a method to increase flex without taking too much of a hit to durability (ability to handle slashes) by needing thinner shaft walls.

I'm not convinced that's true. 100 flex vs 85 flex doesn't change shaft walls, so I don't think it's to lower the flex. Concentrating the face and backhand sides of the shaft closer together in the taper creates a lot more force on the shorter walls, and thus would create a faster spring to release the higher buildup of shear. I get that, that's what gives the better, faster release and better kick.

What I don't get is why companies are making the taper the stiffest portion of the stick? Are they shortchanging information, assuming we really don't care, or afraid to give away too much to competitors? Is there really that much science and engineering going into these sticks?

Maybe we're starting to get too far into this.

[MLSman 22]

The durability of the upper part of a shaft. The durability of the taper zone is the same, if not worse, than in a non-tapered shaft. The main problem with this is that the taper zone is where the majority of bumps and bruises occur in a hockey game to a shaft.

That is a great point.

This is a great thread that highlights why I get so annoyed with all of the hockey analysts that are "technology retarded" when it comes to "cohm..pose..it"...as they like to say...designs. They have no clue about the consistency of a technologically advanced stick vs the inconsistency of a woody. They complain they break all the time, and they do, but their major advantage has never been their durability...it is their consistency and performance. I bet most of those knuckleheads don't even know that composite sticks are hollow. I am still surprised we don't hear much about the fact that hockey players go through many pairs of skates in a season, instead of the past where players would use the same skate over a few seasons. Hell...Eddie O on NBC last year was talking about natural leather in skates...when was the last time anyone has seen true natural leather in a skate?

What I don't get is why companies are making the taper the stiffest portion of the stick? Are they shortchanging information, assuming we really don't care, or afraid to give away too much to competitors? Is there really that much science and engineering going into these sticks?

Maybe we're starting to get too far into this.

They have to earn a living somehow! :P

I agree...most of it is marketing, and we see great innovations occasionally, but mostly marketing of existing innovation with minor design mods to eliminate flaws. There are exceptions to that generalization, but most manufacturers will take an effective design from and innovation and slightly alter it with a different branding.

I just think there is an ignorance of the consuming public how difficult it is to design a light, durable, and balanced stick with the right kickpoint for the general public...that's why we all congregate here to modsquad....because that ignorance is lost quickly. :)

[Rustpot 1]

Part of why I love collecting sticks is to see all of the different techniques and methods to rehash the classic hockey stick. I was showing an S17, Mission Fuel Ti, Warrior Dolo and RBK Sickick to some coworkers today and they were all pretty much flabbergasted at A- the price and B- the technology going into these things. I could have talked their ears off for an hour, but none of them will poke fun at me for collecting hockey sticks again :P

Any Bauer lurkers on the board looking for a college senior ME to come work in St Jerome next year? Plenty of enthusiasm and a solid resume! :D If only I switched to Materials Eng. freshman year!

[MLSman 22]

Part of why I love collecting sticks is to see all of the different techniques and methods to rehash the classic hockey stick. I was showing an S17, Mission Fuel Ti, Warrior Dolo and RBK Sickick to some coworkers today and they were all pretty much flabbergasted at A- the price and B- the technology going into these things. I could have talked their ears off for an hour, but none of them will poke fun at me for collecting hockey sticks again :P

Any Bauer lurkers on the board looking for a college senior ME to come work in St Jerome next year? Plenty of enthusiasm and a solid resume! :D If only I switched to Materials Eng. freshman year!

HA! It's like in the Matrix...."why didn't I take the blue pill"

[Jarick 5]

All I know is that when I use a whippy tapered stick, I can load up the shots and release them quicker, although my slappers lose some power. But for me, right now, I'm really a fan of a stick that doesn't torque as much; my passing and aim is much better.

[Chadd 916]

All I know is that when I use a whippy tapered stick, I can load up the shots and release them quicker, although my slappers lose some power. But for me, right now, I'm really a fan of a stick that doesn't torque as much; my passing and aim is much better.

Slow down your motion on the slapshot with the whippier stick. With a more flexible shaft, it's all about being smooth and not about how much power you can put into the shot.

[Hockeyman11385 1]

This is a very interesting thread and has been a good read. Being more in the marketing field at the moment, I can comment a little bit on that side of things. The way that most products (computers, golf equipment, etc.) work these days is that there are only incremental advances with each new model. Once in a while there are huge advancements (OPS's for instance), which every company adopts and then we are back to the small improvements again until the next breakthrough. The job of the marketing division is to convince the public that these small improvements make a huge difference in the performance of a product and that their product is much better than a competitor's. Since the choice of a stick has a lot to due with personal preference, it is very difficult for the marketing people to persuade the general consumer that their product is best. This is especially true these days since the average person cannot afford or doesn't have the opportunity to try out each model from each company due to the sky-rocketing prices of top of the line sticks.

[Chadd 916]

This is a very interesting thread and has been a good read. Being more in the marketing field at the moment, I can comment a little bit on that side of things. The way that most products (computers, golf equipment, etc.) work these days is that there are only incremental advances with each new model. Once in a while there are huge advancements (OPS's for instance), which every company adopts and then we are back to the small improvements again until the next breakthrough. The job of the marketing division is to convince the public that these small improvements make a huge difference in the performance of a product and that their product is much better than a competitor's. Since the choice of a stick has a lot to due with personal preference, it is very difficult for the marketing people to persuade the general consumer that their product is best. This is especially true these days since the average person cannot afford or doesn't have the opportunity to try out each model from each company due to the sky-rocketing prices of top of the line sticks.

The OPS wasn't a huge advance for the guys that had been using the Tflex or flyweight. Tapering a shaft on the other hand, that was the major step forward. As usual in the hockey market, the revolutionary products are often ignored or misunderstood, while the products that build on that technology generally flourish.

[BMcDonald19 0]

One difference i noticed was flex. a 77 flex one95 have more flex than a 77 flex vapor xxxx

[interpathway 9]

One difference i noticed was flex. a 77 flex one95 have more flex than a 77 flex vapor xxxx

Careful. More flex on the one95, or a higher KP which gave your hands the impression it was flexing more?

[flyerman 0]

All I know is that when I use a whippy tapered stick, I can load up the shots and release them quicker, although my slappers lose some power. But for me, right now, I'm really a fan of a stick that doesn't torque as much; my passing and aim is much better.

Slow down your motion on the slapshot with the whippier stick. With a more flexible shaft, it's all about being smooth and not about how much power you can put into the shot.

Chad, this is a great tip which I will try out. I am using much whippier sticks these days (75 flexes cut down 5" or so), and like Jarick, my slappers definitely lose velocity. I'll try slowing the motion down and not driving into the shot as much, letting the stick do the work like I do with snappers, and see if that helps. Many thanks!

[Chadd 916]

All I know is that when I use a whippy tapered stick, I can load up the shots and release them quicker, although my slappers lose some power. But for me, right now, I'm really a fan of a stick that doesn't torque as much; my passing and aim is much better.

Slow down your motion on the slapshot with the whippier stick. With a more flexible shaft, it's all about being smooth and not about how much power you can put into the shot.

Chad, this is a great tip which I will try out. I am using much whippier sticks these days (75 flexes cut down 5" or so), and like Jarick, my slappers definitely lose velocity. I'll try slowing the motion down and not driving into the shot as much, letting the stick do the work like I do with snappers, and see if that helps. Many thanks!

You can still use your strength, but you do have to slow down your hands. It may sound confusing but it works.

[raygunpk 0]

Do you guys notice much of a difference between standard and tapered shafts?

[Jarick 5]

The tapered sticks load up a bit easier, which makes them feel a bit whippier, and I can get my shot off quicker.

[noodle3872 40]

I agree, the tapered shaft does load up better and the puck comes off with more zip.

Mike