Complainaing about officials

[cptjeff 0]

Chadd,

I have said this many times.... Us Zebras are our own worst enemy..... Be it what we say\write, our calls\lack there of, or the abuse that we accept from players and coaches.............

Some of those other issues relate to why you take that abuse from players and coaches.

...Just sayin'.

[Chadd 916]

Some of those other issues relate to why you take that abuse from players and coaches.

...Just sayin'.

This is going off topic, but it is important to address this issue.

That abuse has more to do with the players and coaches than the officials.

[cptjeff 0]

From the POV of a player, that's not really what I've observed. When a ref isn't consistently screwing up borderline stuff, letting obvious stuff go, or getting offsides rules and calls wrong, they take a lot less shit. The refs that know the rules and call them to a decent standard tend to get a fair bit of respect where I play. The ones that routinely let games get out of hand, screw up line calls and such... Well, they don't get a whole lot of respect. However, even if refs who screw up occasional calls can still get respect if they explain what they saw and why the call was made.

I will say that my experience is limited and that conditions may be different where you ref, but you as refs can't just pin player and coach anger on just the players and coaches. Often, perhaps not always, there's a decent reason for it. You as a ref may still be right, but remember those on the bench have a different view of plays, and not always a worse one. If refs across the board knew the rules and called stuff to the correct standard on a consistent basis, I would guarantee a significant reduction in the shit you guys get from players and coaches.

Not parents though. Parents will whine about a hooking call when little jimmy uses his stick to tow himself behind an opposing player halfway down the ice.

[Chadd 916]

Bullshit.

I've had a coach riding me for an hour after a call made a couple minutes into a game. He kept bringing it up all game, bitching about how were out to screw him, etc... Then after the game, he tells me he knew it was the right call and it's just part of the job. I told him to go to hell.

As for knowing the rules; more often than not the players and coaches are lacking in knowledge than the officials. That said, if you are playing at anything less than the highest level, you will generally get less capable officials.

Consistency; that's what the heart of the original comment you quoted was all about. It's the guys that let coaches and players get away with murder that makes it impossible for people that actually call the game the way the book tells you. The only thing you can do as an official is tell the coaches before the game when your tendencies are, especially if you are more strict like I am. As long as the official is consistent within the course of the game, that is all you can expect at any level.

[Trooper 8]

Here's the bottom line, the more you are exposed, in any sport, to the higher levels and better quality coaches and players, the less they get on the officating/reffing.

I have done my share of yelling and have learned from it. I would bet in a given game the coach and each player makes ten times as many mistakes as an official.

[Husker 0]

Officials get paid. I expect people I pay to do a good job and more often than not you have officials that mess up line calls because they can't keep up with the players, officials that make up their own interpretations of the rules, and all around performance that they charge money to do and do shitty jobs.

Officials are their own worst enemy. If I don't do my job 100% I lose customers, don't get paid, and face punishment from whoever governs the guidelines of my profession. In my case the DoBI and I could lose my banking license, my bond, ect. Officials answer to basically no one because 1) They have a better relationship with the rink owners/commish of the league then I ever will. 2) There is no real governing body for house league officials even though I have to pay USA hockey money to pay there. Who's word are they going to take? 3) Officials make it personal with a specific person more often than not and it's so transparent its funny.

[coryroth24 15]

Maybe I'll get jumped for this, but here's the way I see it as both a player and a coach. Either consistently suck and let everything go, or consistently call a penalty every time a stick taps a shin pad. I'm sure you guys know what I mean...

[Hockeyman11385 1]

Officials get paid. I expect people I pay to do a good job and more often than not you have officials that mess up line calls because they can't keep up with the players, officials that make up their own interpretations of the rules, and all around performance that they charge money to do and do shitty jobs.

Officials are their own worst enemy. If I don't do my job 100% I lose customers, don't get paid, and face punishment from whoever governs the guidelines of my profession. In my case the DoBI and I could lose my banking license, my bond, ect. Officials answer to basically no one because 1) They have a better relationship with the rink owners/commish of the league then I ever will. 2) There is no real governing body for house league officials even though I have to pay USA hockey money to pay there. Who's word are they going to take? 3) Officials make it personal with a specific person more often than not and it's so transparent its funny.

Have you ever reffed before?

[Husker 0]

Never, I'm just stating this from my experiences with refs in adult hockey. Which is completely different from High School, Juniors, ect where they have governing boards to handle this stuff. It's usually two guys out for a Sunday skate on my dollars.

[chippa13 1844]

Good and bad refs exist at all levels.

[furlanitalia 1]

Here's the bottom line, the more you are exposed, in any sport, to the higher levels and better quality coaches and players, the less they get on the officating/reffing.

I'm not sure I would agree with that. Like Chadd said some coaches just feel it's their job to make your life hell and will push you as far as they can. They important thing is to do your job to the best of your ability and not take any bs. I've had coaches scream at me to come over to talk to them. If I'm already in position to drop the puck I tell them they can wait, and when I finally do go over there I make sure they come down to the end of the bench and talk to me on level ground. Usually gets them off their high horse.

[zebra_steve 11]

The last perfect person was nailed to a cross over 2000 years ago - we make mistakes and we are human.

First of all,,,,, since some of you are saying "Refs don't know the rules"...... YOU SHOW ME WHERE IS SAYS THAT ANY PLAYER OR COACH IS ALLOWED TO YELL, BITCH, OR OTHERWISE PROTEST ANY CALL OR NON CALL IN ANY WAY!

Next, since you are looking stuff up (If you even own a rules book) tell me why all of you coaches and players keep wanting the face off "all the way down" for a blown icing call when the rule changed a half decade ago be end zone spot where play was blown dead.

Then tell me about defense to defense hand pass started and completed in the defending zone.

Coaches and players don't need to attend an 8 hour seminar every year, Coaches and players don't need to take a 100 question open book, and 50 question closed book rules test every year. Coaches and players don't have to take a skating test every year. Coaches and players are not subject to unannounced evaluations every time they step on the ice. No one is screaming at the coach because they disagree with his opinion of a particular play.

Like it or not we have to interpret what we see and make calls based on our knowledge and experience. We are standing in the middle of play while the fans and coaches are a couple feel above play. How fast does an NHL game look on TV vs sitting on the glass live? Now put yourself out there in the middle of the action and try to watch the puck and all 12 players on the ice at once.

You want to do something, quit bitching and come out to an officiating seminar.... Get out there and wear the stripes so you know what it is really like. I have a couple refs here that are also coaches that had a tendency to yell from the bench. The only thing I need to tell them is to "call it from the bench the way you call it from the ice"..... There is one hell of a lot more to being a referee than.... " the rules book says...." You don't control a game, you manage it. If I need to step in and do something to control a game, then the coach has lost control of his bench, and the players have lost control of themselves.

[furlanitalia 1]

First of all,,,,, since some of you are saying "Refs don't know the rules"...... YOU SHOW ME WHERE IS SAYS THAT ANY PLAYER OR COACH IS ALLOWED TO YELL, BITCH, OR OTHERWISE PROTEST ANY CALL OR NON CALL IN ANY WAY!

Rule 9.2 (a)

A Minor penalty shall be assessed to any player or team official who challenges or disputes the rulings of any official during the game or displays unsportsmanlike conduct.

If a player or goaltender persists, he/she shall be assessed a Misconduct penalty and any further disputes will result in a Game Misconduct penalty being assessed to the offending player or goaltender. If a team official persists, he/she shall immediately be assessed a Game Misconduct penalty.

A Referee is not required to assess a Minor penalty under this rule before assessing a the Misconduct or Game Misconduct, but may assess either of these penalties initially.

[zebra_steve 11]

Husker..... There's a reason it's that way in "hacker hockey" - yeah that's what us zebras call a great deal of the adult hockey we see (and play)! I tried to ref adult league ONCE... I tried to call it like a REAL GAME - ONCE.... It was the worst hour of bitching and moaning that I ever heard... guys were quoting NHL rules to me and they were quoting them wrong! Yeah, it's "easy money" for those guys that can deal with it.... Many of the guys that skate adult leagues develop bad habits that I have to spend the rest of their careers trying to correct. Like Chippa said, good and bad officials at all levels, but once you start talking "adult hockey" it really is a crap shoot.

BTW _ some food for thought here. IF you are skating any adult league that IS NOT REGISTERED AND SANCTIONED WITH USAH OR IT'S COUNTERPART IN CANADA then what you might have are guys wearing striped shirts dropping pucks ..... They may or may not be a registered and certified official, and without the sanctioning and registration of the teams and the league they are not required to be. You get what you get and they truly can make up any rule they choose to so long as they have the blessing of the rink that's running the show..... Most "loosely follow USAH rules around here, but I will tell you that many of the better officials (around here anyway) don't touch adult hockey unless they are playing.

furlanitalia

We have a rule book to deal with those coaches.... too many times we choose to take the abuse rather than use the rules book to properly deal with it... When we do not deal with these disruptive and argumentative coaches then we make life twice as difficult for his next victim.

As for the coach standing up on the bench and talking down to us... that's basic to make them step down to talk..you cannot converse normally, you have to yell or speak very loudly to be heard, and the coach is speaking to you from a "superior position" (the psychology of the interaction). Once he's down to our eye level he needs to understand that it's NOT a debate. "Coach, you ask your question and I'll give you an answer - but you need to realize you may not like my answer and we are not gonna a debate it."

[Scoobersti 0]

What Steve said about NHL rules reminds me this time when this guy was giving the ref crap in my beer league game. I was standing waiting for the faceoff when one of the guys on the other team skated over to one of the refs (since its beer league its 2 refs who doubles as ref and linesmen) and started complaining about something and I heard him say something about some NHL rules and the ref was like "This isn't the NHL, if you want to play by those rules you should be playing in the NHL".

I have to say though, I give refs a lot of credit not just hockey but, all the other sports too. I'm not a ref, but I've taken verbal abuse when I worked as event staff and retail growing up and I understand I was paid to do my job and sometime people didn't like me enforcing the rules (at the event staff work) or didn't like the store's return policies or some other policy. I understand that the customers have the right to voice their opinion or displeasure, but there is a fine line between complaining/arguing and verbal abuse. Sometimes in my beer league games its total verbal abuse that the refs have to go through.

[furlanitalia 1]

furlanitalia

We have a rule book to deal with those coaches.... too many times we choose to take the abuse rather than use the rules book to properly deal with it... When we do not deal with these disruptive and argumentative coaches then we make life twice as difficult for his next victim.

As for the coach standing up on the bench and talking down to us... that's basic to make them step down to talk..you cannot converse normally, you have to yell or speak very loudly to be heard, and the coach is speaking to you from a "superior position" (the psychology of the interaction). Once he's down to our eye level he needs to understand that it's NOT a debate. "Coach, you ask your question and I'll give you an answer - but you need to realize you may not like my answer and we are not gonna a debate it."

And that's how all younger officials need to be taught. I've seen too many young guys go over to the bench right after making a call and get their head ripped off by a coach who is not only an adult but also standing on the bench screaming down at them. If they can learn to stand their ground and not get intimidated (because many coaches use this as a way to prove their point) then they will be able to keep their focus on the game.

Once last season I saw a ref (in peewee? maybe atom) help break up a scrum and ended up knocking a player over. Coach went nutty on him and I finally opened the gate for him and informed him that regardless of the call, he had been asked to leave and was at this point berating a 14 year old kid. Problem was the kid never able to get a word in on the coach and he just kept screaming so when the ref finally had a chance to speak up his only words were "you have to leave". After the game the team refused to shake hands and just left the ice, and it's this lack of respect and sportsmanship that causes the most problems.

Needless to say I'm really looking forward to spring hockey as the league asks us not to call many penalties so the kids come back the next year. It's a terrible message to send to young officials, but for someone who is more experienced it provides you with many situations in which Coaches feel they can over rule you and you're forced to be quick on your feet in dealing with these situations and keeping games in control when you're supposed to let everything go.

[chk hrd 164]

The one thing I would like to see more of is communication. The best refs I have skated with and coach with are good comminicators. They don't just make a call and report it. If asked in a respectful manner they will tell you what you did wrong because they are confident of what they are calling. These refs usually talk to players during face offs, yell for icing and offsides and manage the game well. They also call the game consistently, what was a penalty in the first 5 minutes will be a penalty in the last 5.

There is nothing worse than asking a ref what the call was for; if you call me for hooking and I ask why, don't just blow me off or say just get in the box. A little explanation goes along way; tell me "you got your stick a little high or under the arms", etc. Don't question your calls, "If you don't like the hooking call how about I call you for interferance" makes it sound like you not sure what is the right call. If a captain or coach asks to speak to you in a respectful tone, do it and don't just wave them off.

The worse refs are the ones who just have an FU, I'm the boss attitude. They give no respect to the players and get none in return. It is usually the people who don't have alot of knowledge but are trying to pretend they do that are the loudest to try and convince everyone, whether it's ref, coaches, players or co-workers. The ones that know what they are doing have a feeling of confidence that players sense.

[zebra_steve 11]

From the POV of a player, that's not really what I've observed. When a ref isn't consistently screwing up borderline stuff, letting obvious stuff go, or getting offsides rules and calls wrong, they take a lot less shit. The refs that know the rules and call them to a decent standard tend to get a fair bit of respect where I play. The ones that routinely let games get out of hand, screw up line calls and such... Well, they don't get a whole lot of respect. However, even if refs who screw up occasional calls can still get respect if they explain what they saw and why the call was made.

I will say that my experience is limited and that conditions may be different where you ref, but you as refs can't just pin player and coach anger on just the players and coaches. Often, perhaps not always, there's a decent reason for it. You as a ref may still be right, but remember those on the bench have a different view of plays, and not always a worse one. If refs across the board knew the rules and called stuff to the correct standard on a consistent basis, I would guarantee a significant reduction in the shit you guys get from players and coaches.

Not parents though. Parents will whine about a hooking call when little jimmy uses his stick to tow himself behind an opposing player halfway down the ice.

If you're out of position and screwing up basic stuff like offsides and icing, then you probably have more to fear from ME than any player or coach! Rules knowledge and consistency in your penalty standard are big things. As a player or coach, it is you job to adjust to the referee's standard... the referee must be consistent throughout the game so that you can make that adjustment. We are human, our view, or lack of it factors in. Some times we have an off game.... it happens..... The guys that concern me more are the ones that never seem to have an "on game"..... Those are the ones that I need to find a way to get them to improve.

As for coach and player anger..... whether you're justified or not, have you ever won an argument with a ref? Have you ever gotten the penalty pulled back off the sheet? Have you gotten a bench minor, misconduct or game misconduct for standing there yelling profanities at the ref while there are 8 year old kids in the building watching and listening (learning?)? What life lessons are you teaching these kids when you do this stuff... Have you ever been at a rink just watching games with no personal interest and seen one of these coach\player\referee confrontations? What did you think? Was there any winner, or multiple losers?

[furlanitalia 1]

Don't question your calls, "If you don't like the hooking call how about I call you for interference" makes it sound like you not sure what is the right call.

They only time I do that is if it can be called either way - charge with the hands up, slash at the feet, etc. And my response to them bitching is "well it was either trip or a slash, so unless you want both I'd just go to the box."

It's been said before on here in different threads about how important communicating is. And about how important it is that it gets done in an appropriate manner that isn't the ref being "I'm the boss and this game is about me." Too many guys go into games and make stupid non calls earlier just to prove that they are in control and lose all respect from everyone. It leads to inconsistent games and overall bad hockey games. Call what happens, be confident in your calls, and talk to players/coaches in a manner that you would want to be talked to.

Oh, and know the rules ;)

[Trooper 8]

I'm not sure I would agree with that. Like Chadd said some coaches just feel it's their job to make your life hell and will push you as far as they can. They important thing is to do your job to the best of your ability and not take any bs. I've had coaches scream at me to come over to talk to them. If I'm already in position to drop the puck I tell them they can wait, and when I finally do go over there I make sure they come down to the end of the bench and talk to me on level ground. Usually gets them off their high horse.

I can agree with that. Working the refs (within reason) is one thing, but whining about their performance once everything is said and done and blaming them for the outcome of a game is another. I've seen guys fired up on the benches and riding refs a bit but once the game is over you would never hear a peep about the officials.

Never, I'm just stating this from my experiences with refs in adult hockey. Which is completely different from High School, Juniors, ect where they have governing boards to handle this stuff. It's usually two guys out for a Sunday skate on my dollars.

And men's league hockey is just a bunch of guys out for a Sunday skate on their own dollars. Put it in perspective, at the end of the day men's league is for fun and exercise.

[furlanitalia 1]

And men's league hockey is just a bunch of guys out for a Sunday skate on their own dollars. Put it in perspective, at the end of the day men's league is for fun and exercise.

If you can get that message through to all the men's leagues out there then I commend you. Last night was a great example of two teams battling hard for playoff position (and while it is a higher tier with some ex Junior and Major Junior players) a lot of guys that didn't play high levels were using their sticks like battle axes and their bodies like wrecking balls. I have no problem with a physical, hard fought game, but when I skate by you with the puck I'm not expecting to have you swing around to try and break my wrist. Didn't help the game was at 10:30 at night and when that happens the ref's never call anything.

[chippa13 1844]

And men's league hockey is just a bunch of guys out for a Sunday skate on their own dollars. Put it in perspective, at the end of the day men's league is for fun and exercise.

Sure, but at the same time men's league is about still competing and a part of that is having referees who are interested in doing their best.

Regardless of what level game you're doing, be it mites, midgets, or men's league, your standards and effort as a referee should be the same. Have some pride in what you're doing and show some effort, a blown offside call when you're still at the far blue line does a lot more harm than a blown offside call when you're in position but get blocked out at the exact wrong instance by a player.

[Chadd 916]

Sure, but at the same time men's league is about still competing and a part of that is having referees who are interested in doing their best.

Regardless of what level game you're doing, be it mites, midgets, or men's league, your standards and effort as a referee should be the same. Have some pride in what you're doing and show some effort, a blown offside call when you're still at the far blue line does a lot more harm than a blown offside call when you're in position but get blocked out at the exact wrong instance by a player.

It doesn't take much more effort to call the game straight. Since you're there, and getting paid, you might as well call it that way. Around here we have issues with guys that will work a lot of games on the weekends, some were up to 10+ on Sundays with travel leagues, junior high and adult league games.

[jcp2 2]

Officials answer to basically no one because 1) They have a better relationship with the rink owners/commish of the league then I ever will. 2) There is no real governing body for house league officials even though I have to pay USA hockey money to pay there. Who's word are they going to take? 3) Officials make it personal with a specific person more often than not and it's so transparent its funny.

In my league, the officials answer to the league organizer, but the league organizer answers to the team captains. Officials who are consistently bad or inconsistent are pointed out, and they get dropped from the schedule for a bit. The last thing the league organizer wants is for teams to pull out or disband because the playing conditions are no fun. I think it also helps that several groups have teams at different levels, so one group leaving completely would really put the league in a tough spot. My group had three teams with three different groups of players at three different competitive levels. The highest level team changed rinks and leagues because of officiating bias.

[tareatingrat 4]

Consistency is key. Problem is, especially with rec. league, there is no consistency. I would kill for a ref to take 10 seconds and explain a close call to me.

The worst is referees who are on a power trip, they can do no wrong. There's little to no recourse for a player in a beer league, so if a ref has it out for you, there's not much you can do.

I realize it's a thankless job, but so is mine. Deal with it and do your job properly or don't do it at all.