Why can't\won't you control your stick?

[zebra_steve 11]

So we beat the dead horse on cage vs shield...

So... let's take on the next question..... No matter whether we have a cage or a shield we have too many players that are too aggressive with their sticks or just plain don't have a clue on how to control them. Why are we accepting of this behavior as "part of the game" instead of NOT accepting it and making them respect the game, the rules, and their opponents.

I want to know why we can't or won't make the effort to get the sticks down where they're supposed to be - and by extension the hands and elbows too?

Don't tell me it can't be done because I keep mine down, and as a ref I've skated past a bench and said, "coach, your guys are getting the sticks up too high and getting them too close to the hands." He said, "you hear him boys, get 'em down." Their sticks did not get above their waist and their stick checks and lifts were on the bottom 1\3 of the stick for the next 2 1/2 periods. I skated my ass off that game 'cuz the game went form whack\hack\punch\scrum BS to a frigging track meet!

[tareatingrat 4]

Even as devil's advocate in the other thread, I can't say I disagree with you.

I think a bit has to do with what kids see on TV in televised games at a high level. The amount of stick work is ridiculous.

It probably stems from the better protective equipment. People might think they're invulnerable out there and play like it. That might sound like a counterpoint to my arguments in the other thread, but I personally wear as much equipment as I can because of those people and because I don't like getting hurt, not because I want to play recklessly.

While I don't think having facial protection is ever a bad idea, perhaps mandating that the rest of the equipment not be as protective (soft shoulders, elbow pads, etc.) might restore the fear factor into the game, and slow things down a little. I would be for that.

It's something that's hard to change when that's how the game is played now. Not sure if there's a way to fix it other than changing the game itself.

But, I would0 personally argue that the bigger problem isn't necessarily hockey related, but related to respect, and the lack of which is being imposed upon youth these days. It just transfers to everything they do, including hockey.

[ktang 34]

In the lower levels I think it's because people who start as adults don't get any or enough instruction. They also don't get the best reffing, so they may not realize that their sticks are up at all. And they don't have a coach on the bench to tell them to keep their sticks down.

[Fire0nIce228 1]

I feel like in the way you described it the team was playing really hard and physical and when you warned them that you would start calling penalties they backed it down for fear of getting a penalty. I mean the scrums and extra curriculars after a whistle, that comes down to the referree managing the game properly.

To me, its all about the refs. Just like we all complain about in the NHL, some refs let more go than others. You set your standard at the beginning of the game by warning them about stickwork and extra stuff after the whistles, so they stopped doing it knowing that you would enforce it that way. Maybe the game prior they let all sorts of junk go. I think its a great thing that you verbally told them what needs to happen, clearly communicated, or you'd start sending people to the box.

I wouldnt/don't ever play to intentionally elbow/highstick/etc. with intent to injure my opposing player but I have had referree say after a play or whatnot to take it down a notch or he'd slap me with 2. Now thats not to say I would never try to bend the rules to my favor as much as possible, but thats what penalties are for in the first place. I don't think anyone tries to highstick or slash peoples hands to injure them purposely though, however, when your competing in a contact sport things will happen just as has been beat to death in the other thread.

[Chadd 916]

1. Because coaches don't teach kids to hit properly, so they all lead with the hands(and sticks) up high.

2. Because refs don't call it a penalty every time it happens, even if the other guy is wearing a cage or visor.

If those two things were changed, people would keep their stick down a lot more.

[Hradsky 1]

I don't know why people can't control their sticks... I've only ever high sticked a person once. That was a ref, and it was when I was 10 playing my first year of hockey. And of course, unintentional.

[Balzinsker 0]

I think the whole equipment angle maybe the root cause of it. I would say that its just a bad childhood habit that was never forced out of them. Most people play their whole life in full gear and cages so they don't ever really feel the pain of a high stick. Combine that with the fact that most people aren't really that good at hockey and you get the expected result. Which is funny because the worst offenders of stick work I've encountered are usually ball hockey guys! The best way to regulate this problem may just be to approach someone in a respectful manner and mention that they should try to keep their stick down. Most of the time the people doing it aren't even aware that they are doing it.

[zebra_steve 11]

Fire....

The instance I related they were playing very hard and physical from the first drop of the puck which is fine by me, but the team was chopping hard on the middle third of the stick (not on the hands, but definitely high and intimidating), were carrying their sticks pretty high in general and had the hands and sticks up on their hits (and held them high when they were being checked). They were on the edge and and rather than have to deal with the chippiness that would be sure to follow when someone actually got hit with a high stick or a slash I asked\told the coach to have his players adjust what they were doing.... they complied and everything went smoothly. Other times the reaction was more like "we aren't changing our style at all... call it if you don't like it." Then they bitched 'cuz they were playing short most of the game....

RE: the scrums and the ref managing the game.... Sometimes players\teams just don't wanna play hockey no matter what you do... the game is a turd and you can't polish it or flush it. You just do what you can and try to get through without someone getting hurt.

As for intentionally trying to hurt someone... there are absolutely cases that players want to hurt\injure the person they are hitting (and coaches that send players out to do it).... maybe to get even for a cheapie they received earlier in the game... that season.... some old unsettled score..... trying to take out or slow down the oppositions best player..... just plain old "Broad Street Bully style intimidation".... you name it.... it does happen.

Referees manage the game, and yeah sometimes we screw the pooch - we are human. But, it still falls back on the coaches and to a greater extent the players, respecting each other, the rules, and the game not to engage in the BS. Referees don't make players whack, punch, elbow, spear, trash talk during play or after the whistle.... Unfortunately to some folks that extracurricular stuff means more than skating, passing, shooting, and scoring.

Something else to remember is that calling a game or playing a game at the PRO level is a whole different world from amateur or NCAA.

Chadd,

You've once again managed to sum up a whole lot of thoughts in just two sentences....

[shooter27 116]

At the end of the day its a respect issue for your opponents. Its the same thing with elbows to the head, hits from behind, and 8 stride charges. At the end of the day you have to respect the opponent enough to want to beat them without physically hurting them. I don't think enough people separate the two and assume physical intimidation is just as good as winning. Players in general used to have more respect for their opponents as part of the code of the game, which doesn't seem to exist anymore.

[chk hrd 164]

1. Because coaches don't teach kids to hit properly, so they all lead with the hands(and sticks) up high.

2. Because refs don't call it a penalty every time it happens, even if the other guy is wearing a cage or visor.

If those two things were changed, people would keep their stick down a lot more.

completely agree...

[zebra_steve 11]

At the end of the day its a respect issue for your opponents. Its the same thing with elbows to the head, hits from behind, and 8 stride charges. At the end of the day you have to respect the opponent enough to want to beat them without physically hurting them. I don't think enough people separate the two and assume physical intimidation is just as good as winning. Players in general used to have more respect for their opponents as part of the code of the game, which doesn't seem to exist anymore.

DING - DING - DING - DING - DING - DING - DING - DING - DING

I do believe We have a winner here!

The games I've skated (player or ref) where there was respect for the opponents were, in general, faster and better played games.....

[Chadd 916]

Chadd,

You've once again managed to sum up a whole lot of thoughts in just two sentences....

What can I say, laziness pays off at times.

[fiimb 1]

to add to what you guys already stated, i believe part of the problem is just absent mindedness.

as an example, i was playing some pick up today and this guy was skating around with his stick head height. granted he was pretty tall.

i happen to fly by him trying to get to the puck and ran into his stick. yea i know it was partly my fault too, but i don't generally expect sticks to be at my head.

i attribute this to absent mindedness cause he was clearly apologetic afterwards.

so there are 2 errors here, one is the guy with no sense of where his stick is in relation to other players, and other players somewhat unaware of other players sticks.

[Fire0nIce228 1]

As for intentionally trying to hurt someone... there are absolutely cases that players want to hurt\injure the person they are hitting (and coaches that send players out to do it).... maybe to get even for a cheapie they received earlier in the game... that season.... some old unsettled score..... trying to take out or slow down the oppositions best player..... just plain old "Broad Street Bully style intimidation".... you name it.... it does happen.

Most definately there is and it falls back to respect of course. I would say MOST players don't play the game to hurt their opponent. The ones that go out there to kill someone every shift..well theres probably no changing them. The point of a check is to seperate the player from the puck, not to put them into the second row of seats. I agree with the teaching of the game. The young players see all the oohs and ahhs highlights of the huge monster hits and thats what they want to do. The coaches need to explain that that is not the purpose of a bodycheck.

On that note though, I would say most/all of us have gotten hit a heck of a lot harder than neccisary and also hit someone a heck of a lot harder than neccisary at one point or another during competetive hockey (aka not beer leage)

[BarDownGinos 3]

The point of a check is to seperate the player from the puck, not to put them into the second row of seats. I agree with the teaching of the game. The young players see all the oohs and ahhs highlights of the huge monster hits and thats what they want to do. The coaches need to explain that that is not the purpose of a bodycheck.

On that note though, I would say most/all of us have gotten hit a heck of a lot harder than neccisary and also hit someone a heck of a lot harder than neccisary at one point or another during competetive hockey (aka not beer leage)

It is and it isn't though. Once you get to Midgets/HS and beyond it becomes a much more useful tool than just seperating your opponent from the puck. I've seen HS games won in the first 10 minutes because players were gun shy of getting hit every time they touched the puck.

[Fire0nIce228 1]

Found this in a members signature

"If I hadn't learned to lay on a two-hander once in a while, I'd never have left Flin Flon." - Bobby Clarke, in 1972

Seems fitting in my opinion.

[chippa13 1844]

Not really, I don't recall Bobby Clarke giving out too many too handers to the face and head.

[Neal 41]

I almost have to comment on this one, that quote came from my signature. Bobby Clarke's most famous slash was on Valeri Kharlamov's ankle in game 6 of the Summit Series. Clarke cracked a bone in Kharlamov's ankle, rendering him unavailable or ineffective for the rest of the series.

It was a dirty play. I have it in my signature as a comment on the level of violence and determination necessary to play at the highest levels. Not as a suggestion as to effective play.

Clarke played up to and over the line between hard and dirty play on a regular basis. But as chippa13 said, even he kept his stick away from people's heads.

[Fire0nIce228 1]

And I'm not saying go around and slam people in the head of course. I don't think anyone was talking about 2 handing people in the face. My point of posting it was exactly what you said, to play at a high level sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, and there are people that do it, obviously.

Now is that a mantra that highschoolers and beer leaguers should live by, no of course not.

[cptjeff 0]

Alright, I'll play devil's advocate here.

What do you mean when you say "controlling your stick"? Exactly what situations need I control it? For example, when I'm accelerating full on, with one hand on the stick pushing the puck up the ice, and a guy decides to reach and try and lift my stick, am I liable when he's using two hands to lift a stick that I absolutely cannot hold down? Why should I be liable if he flips it into his own face?

Those are the situations where the 'shit happens' defense tends to come into play. Or when one arm is smashed into the boards, separating your hand from your stick violently. The movement of your hand involuntarily is often going to make the stick come up, and it's not a time when you can actually be in complete control.

Why should I be expected to have control of my stick at all times when as a matter of fact, me being in control at all times is impossible, especially for a smaller guy who's more easily outmuscled then others?

[eric42434224 1]

You cant be in control of your stick at all times. In a very fast and physical sport, it is unrealistic to think that it can be done. We can, and should, try to reduce negligent stick behavoir, but even if we eliminated it, there will always be instances beyond anyones control.

[gxc999 7]

Alright, I'll play devil's advocate here.

What do you mean when you say "controlling your stick"? Exactly what situations need I control it? For example, when I'm accelerating full on, with one hand on the stick pushing the puck up the ice, and a guy decides to reach and try and lift my stick, am I liable when he's using two hands to lift a stick that I absolutely cannot hold down? Why should I be liable if he flips it into his own face?

Those are the situations where the 'shit happens' defense tends to come into play. Or when one arm is smashed into the boards, separating your hand from your stick violently. The movement of your hand involuntarily is often going to make the stick come up, and it's not a time when you can actually be in complete control.

Why should I be expected to have control of my stick at all times when as a matter of fact, me being in control at all times is impossible, especially for a smaller guy who's more easily outmuscled then others?

This happens more often than people think. The big guy decides to shove off the smaller guy when he tries to do a stick lift and pops himself, I've seen it happen personally several times.

You cant be in control of your stick at all times. In a very fast and physical sport, it is unrealistic to think that it can be done. We can, and should, try to reduce it....but it wont ever go away.

Ding, ding. Collisions are a big cause of this. I've seen two teammates run into each other and accidentally high stick someone on the other team or the ref. But it can have many causes including bad ice, shitty sharpenings, uneven boards, etc etc.

[raganblink 82]

In the lower levels I think it's because people who start as adults don't get any or enough instruction. They also don't get the best reffing, so they may not realize that their sticks are up at all. And they don't have a coach on the bench to tell them to keep their sticks down.

This sums it up for most adults (who started as adults). They never got taught anything really, so this is omething they have no clue on.

As for kids? They want to be like crosby and ovi and stuff, and they don't enforce it as they should. So we're stuck with the problem until it starts getting enforced as a kid, and adults learn to play hockey correctly, instead of going off of what they think is right/see on tv (same recklessness problems).

This happens more often than people think. The big guy decides to shove off the smaller guy when he tries to do a stick lift and pops himself, I've seen it happen personally several times.

Ding, ding. Collisions are a big cause of this. I've seen two teammates run into each other and accidentally high stick someone on the other team or the ref. But it can have many causes including bad ice, shitty sharpenings, uneven boards, etc etc.

I don't think we're saying bad about accidental stuff, I thought this whole argument is about the shit where people don't have any control anytime, no matter what is happening. I'm okay with accidental, it is annoying, but know it isn't b/c that is the way he plays. I get upset when its the guys who check with sticks up, think they need a 10 foot follow through, and the ones who think its box lacrosse or something.

[chippa13 1844]

Alright, I'll play devil's advocate here.

What do you mean when you say "controlling your stick"? Exactly what situations need I control it? For example, when I'm accelerating full on, with one hand on the stick pushing the puck up the ice, and a guy decides to reach and try and lift my stick, am I liable when he's using two hands to lift a stick that I absolutely cannot hold down? Why should I be liable if he flips it into his own face?

Those are the situations where the 'shit happens' defense tends to come into play. Or when one arm is smashed into the boards, separating your hand from your stick violently. The movement of your hand involuntarily is often going to make the stick come up, and it's not a time when you can actually be in complete control.

Why should I be expected to have control of my stick at all times when as a matter of fact, me being in control at all times is impossible, especially for a smaller guy who's more easily outmuscled then others?

If your stick is on the ice when you get hit and the odds are that you have two hands on your stick, because that is just good mechanics, then your stick should not come up when you get hit.

[Chadd 916]

You cant be in control of your stick at all times. In a very fast and physical sport, it is unrealistic to think that it can be done. We can, and should, try to reduce negligent stick behavoir, but even if we eliminated it, there will always be instances beyond anyones control.

I think the argument here is that a lot of the negligent stuff is being written off as being beyond the control of the offender.