OEM and Hockeytron

[Lee-Bro 1]

Would like everyone's thoughts on this and sorry for another music industry reference...

Some of the companies I used to represent would have their hardware and lower line drums "factory produced" -meaning they outsourced them (even though they were already in Asia). A lot of times you could buy 3 name brand cymbal stands and 2 "budget friendly" stands, they'd all be exactly the same with the only difference is the packaging for each and the 3 name brands were significantly more -usually 50%-100% more. You could buy a name brand snare drum and a generic that had the same shell, but maybe the lugs were different, again, name brand more expensive. I had several reps tell me certain pieces were in fact the same as the inexpensive or competitor's versions other than packaging and came from the same source.

When customers came into the store looking for a cymbal stand (as an example), I would show them the name brand and an off-brand and how they were exactly the same. Unless they psychologically needed the brand name sticker on there, they'd usually go for the more inexpensive version.

I read the thread about counterfeit gear and it reminded me of this. So what I'd like to know from the LHS owners or those w/ experience is: Is there a such thing as an OEM version of gear in the hockey world? Example, if XYZ123 Company outsources their Hulka-Hulka gloves and the factory offers their version under a different name, Smasha-Smasha, if they're made on the same line from same materials, do you consider this: OEM, counterfeit, or off-brand? I'm newer to the hockey gear world so if this is old-hat, it's new for me.

Thanks for your thoughts.

And FTR, I claim trademark rights no "Hulka-Hulka" and "Smasha-Smasha." :-)

[Massivesun 0]

I know there are companies that make laces for big name companies, such as Bauer, and will package one lace as Bauer and the same lace will be packaged as the off-brand company name, and sold for less $$.

[fatwabbit 93]

China doesnt have copyright laws... so effectively if a major brand has all the manufacturing done in China, they will have the major brands specs and produce a similar spec-ed item. Obviously they dont have to worry about quality control etc, so they can afford to sell at a 'cheaper' price.

It happens for everything... phones, laptops, golf clubs... so why not hockey.

[IPv6Freely 2093]

If its the exact same product, but without the brand name on it (as in, came from the same factory), I really couldn't care less and would gladly buy it.

[Secti0n31 0]

If its the exact same product, but without the brand name on it (as in, came from the same factory), I really couldn't care less and would gladly buy it.

I would honestly love to see some knock offs in USA. Even with all of the fancy tech that goes into sticks and skates coming out of easton, bauer and reebok factories, they can't be worth what they charge, and they can't claim 'marketing' money because there's really not alot of hockey marketing (not as much as there is with basketball shoes or golf clubs) Sure there are sponsorships, but that's not as big as it is in other sports.

If someone made an s19 that said "Gleaston" or something, but was still a s19 at heart, and only cost $120... I'D SOOOO BUY IT!!!

[dumbpolak9 1]

can we use inno manics and i guess warrior dolomite's?

[IPv6Freely 2093]

I would honestly love to see some knock offs in USA. Even with all of the fancy tech that goes into sticks and skates coming out of easton, bauer and reebok factories, they can't be worth what they charge, and they can't claim 'marketing' money because there's really not alot of hockey marketing (not as much as there is with basketball shoes or golf clubs) Sure there are sponsorships, but that's not as big as it is in other sports.

If someone made an s19 that said "Gleaston" or something, but was still a s19 at heart, and only cost $120... I'D SOOOO BUY IT!!!

Exactly. Like the fake oakley sunglasses that besides the logo are absolutely identical and half the price. (I know, there are also some bad knockoffs out there that are nowhere close in quality).

Heh... I cant imagine spending $120 on a stick... let alone whatever the model you mention costs originally...

[Secti0n31 0]

Be careful what you wish for...

Lol! I think I could handle it. Some sticks out there are just fantastic (s17, s19, x60, r10, U+CL) and to knock $100 off the price of them would be absolutely awesome. I'd love to own an x60 or s19, but there's no freakin way I'm spending that kind of money on a STICK unless I win the lottery. If someone came out with a Gleaston super19 or a Booer Qx600 or something that used the same basic tech, they'd be (spraypainted black, and) on my stick rack.

[Secti0n31 0]

Why spray paint them? Why not be proud of having an item that someone else is paying $100 more than you are?

A good point, but if everyone found out it was a knockoff they'd want their own, and they'd buy out my suppler. LOL.

[DarkStar50 679]

As if any of this pipe dream ever has a snowball's chance in hell of happening. And hockey players are as label/brand conscious as a bunch of rich women shopping on Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills. If you don't believe it, check out the 96 page thread on what pros are using just THIS season!

[B19Kress 0]

Lol! I think I could handle it. Some sticks out there are just fantastic (s17, s19, x60, r10, U+CL) and to knock $100 off the price of them would be absolutely awesome. I'd love to own an x60 or s19, but there's no freakin way I'm spending that kind of money on a STICK unless I win the lottery. If someone came out with a Gleaston super19 or a Booer Qx600 or something that used the same basic tech, they'd be (spraypainted black, and) on my stick rack.

Or you could just buy prostock and have normal graphics

[Secti0n31 0]

Or you could just buy prostock and have normal graphics

It's not easy finding <80 flex RH pro stocks, but that's beside the point. The point is that I'm not brand conscious at all, and the thought of spending $600+ on skates or $200 on a set of custom gloves actually makes me physically ill.

Just because Z player on Y team is using X product doesn't make me any more likely to splurge on X product. I look for quality, not a brand name.

[DarkStar50 679]

Well, I KNOW it will be done. Whether it succeeds or not is a different story.

As a shop buyer, I have no interest in that type of product. Players in this area want known brands, not knock-off product with unknown labels. Look how hard it is to sell a previously known brand such as Winnwell, even second tier brands such as Sher-Wood/TPS, struggle to get into a shop. When the knock-offs happen, it will be fool's gold.

[lampliter87 8]

Back in the ~2003 range there were sticks being sold as "Famous Maker Overruns", basically it was an Easton Synergy or TPS Response painted flat blue I believe and being sold considerably cheaper... It was my understanding that it was the factory that was producing these Eastons was the one selling them, not an actual company.

[zebra_steve 11]

As a shop buyer, I have no interest in that type of product. Players in this area want known brands, not knock-off product with unknown labels. Look how hard it is to sell a previously known brand such as Winnwell, even second tier brands such as Sher-Wood/TPS, struggle to get into a shop. When the knock-offs happen, it will be fool's gold.

DarkStar,

IRRC , you've probably got as much time in the game as I do (measured in multiple decades).... When I see those names I consider the history associated with them and then look at the quality of the current products.... maybe what is needed is a bit of education in hockey history of the brand and then some salesmanship... If the product is good at a lower price then the issue is overcoming ignorance, and vanity. Then again, the stuff the PRO's are using just HAS to be better and it IS the same as what you buy at retail..... Right? Yeah, I'm poking fun at the gear envy mentality..... But then I always was one that preferred functional but plain looking gear....

[nickyb13 9]

Back in the ~2003 range there were sticks being sold as "Famous Maker Overruns", basically it was an Easton Synergy or TPS Response painted flat blue I believe and being sold considerably cheaper... It was my understanding that it was the factory that was producing these Eastons was the one selling them, not an actual company.

I got one of those at peranis for $75 as my first one piece... I was sad when they stopped selling them

[DarkStar50 679]

Hypothetically, if these "rogue" vendors have lots of money to burn chasing a shrinking pool of players to sell "pirate product" to via internet or whatever, good luck to them. They must have lots of better ways to burn their money, though 'cause you and I know this is not the elitest sport to make money in!

Brooklynite, Combat, Miken, Fury, TPS/Sher-Wood, Winnwell, Tackla, Montreal Hockey, just sayin'...............

[Buzz_LightBeer 969]

The same guys who will buy these "cheap knockoffs" are the same guys who use their LHS as their own personal internet fitting room.

[IPv6Freely 2093]

The same guys who will buy these "cheap knockoffs" are the same guys who use their LHS as their own personal internet fitting room.

I never said anything about buying knockoffs, I'm talking about buying real products that are being sold as noname brand. You know, like buying generic vs name brand medecine. It's the same thing with a different name stamped on it.

I'm not sure I'd be into buying knockoff protective gear... somehow that just seems like a bad idea.

BTW - way to bring something said in another thread into this one...

[Race4LastPlace 31]

I never said anything about buying knockoffs, I'm talking about buying real products that are being sold as noname brand. You know, like buying generic vs name brand medecine. It's the same thing with a different name stamped on it.

I'm not sure I'd be into buying knockoff protective gear... somehow that just seems like a bad idea.

BTW - way to bring something said in another thread into this one...

The brand v. generic medicine argument really is a bad example for this. The FDA regulates that the generics must meet rigorous test standards that have limited variability compared to the brand name. Which can only be done AFTER the brand name patent expires (which can be good for up to 20 years in some cases). Followed by more vigorous testing if the change names/active ingredients/ or even a manufacturing facility change.

Pretty sure theres no FDA for hockey equipment, no standards, and no rigorous testing to prove these no-name brands are the exact same things.

For me, if a warehouse markets a stick as the, say, "Booer Qx600". What guarantee do i have that it is just like an X60? Because said warehouse overseas says so? Just my thoughts...

[Lee-Bro 1]

Well it seems hockey gear is a lot like music gear: There are brand loyalists and there are those who wants whatever works best for them.

To share some insight: Drum Workshop (DW Drums) used to buy their drum shells from Keller, a shell manufacturer here in the states. They would put their own style lugs & such on them, paint (or cover) them, cut bearing edges and send them out the door obviously as DW Drums. Nothing wrong w/ that. I sold tons of them and they are a high-end drum. Nowadays, DW makes their own shells. No biggie.

Anyone could buy shells from Keller and do exactly what DW did. Many did, and many still do. But back in the day, some people came in to specifically buy a DW kit and would save money for an additional 6 months to buy one instead of buying another Keller shell-provided drumset at about 65% of the cost of the DW. Although, the drummers in the know would usually give the other custom drum companies business because they knew the shells were the same as DW's.

I'm guessing that it comes down to:

1) Does the customer need to see the name brand on his/her gear?

2) Does the off-brand have the ability to entice someone to give them a try?

3) What incentives do store-owners have for adding lesser known brands?

4) Does the evolution/updating of gear render off-brands an inventory liability?

Oh, let me share this with you:

This is drumstick tape. It usually goes for $8-$10/roll in most music stores. Yes, this is the EXACT same sticky tape for hockey at $3/roll.

Here's another type of stick "tape":

It's not actually tape, it's like a thick cloth-tape w/o the sticky side. Think of a super-scaled down steering wheel cover -hence the tape at the top & bottom. $8 to wrap only 4 sticks.

[IPv6Freely 2093]

The brand v. generic medicine argument really is a bad example for this. The FDA regulates that the generics must meet rigorous test standards that have limited variability compared to the brand name. Which can only be done AFTER the brand name patent expires (which can be good for up to 20 years in some cases). Followed by more vigorous testing if the change names/active ingredients/ or even a manufacturing facility change.

Pretty sure theres no FDA for hockey equipment, no standards, and no rigorous testing to prove these no-name brands are the exact same things.

For me, if a warehouse markets a stick as the, say, "Booer Qx600". What guarantee do i have that it is just like an X60? Because said warehouse overseas says so? Just my thoughts...

I think you looked far too deeply into my comment. Again, I'm not talking about a copy or a knockoff, I'm talking about the exact same product made in the exact same factory, with a different logo on it. Heres maybe a better example, from my field. Imagine an optical module for a fiber optics link to a router. These are commonly made by either Finisar, or JDSU. However, Cisco sells these modules with their logo on it for upwards of a $500 to $1000, and that's for the low-end ones (GigE over multimode fiber). However, when you plug them into your router and look at the hardware inventory from within the command line, it says very specifically "FINISAR". So Cisco bought Finisar SFPs, slapped their own sticker on them, and upped the price by 10x. I for one would have absolutely no problem buying straight from Finisar, avoiding the ridiculous price Cisco charges, knowing full well that its the exact same thing.

My point is... *IF* such a thing existed in the hockey world (again, talking about rebranded actual brand name products, not knockoffs), I would absolutely be all over it.

For example, if if could buy a pair of Bauer gloves that are missing the Bauer logo (but were made at the Bauer factory) for cheap... damn right I'd buy.

Hope that clears up the confusion.

[Axxion89 32]

Products made by lets say Bauer under a different generic name but are the same product will NEVER happen. The closest I can think of is Warrior and Inno and Eagle's PPX lines where they try to offer a similar product at lower costs due to cost cutting and uses of lesser quality products (I may be wrong with Inno).

Foreign bootlegs may come around but not likely since the market for them would be relatively small and there is a lot of risk in the product (failure in skates, protective, and helmets could result in injury and death, not like a bootleg jersey). Sticks could happen but lets remember, it WILL NOT be the same product and will be inferior.

[Secti0n31 0]

For me, if a warehouse markets a stick as the, say, "Booer Qx600". What guarantee do i have that it is just like an X60? Because said warehouse overseas says so? Just my thoughts...

You're absolutely right about that, and there's definitely a difference between a "clone" or factoty second, and a "knockoff," Here's my experience. I'm a huge fan of Taylor Made golf clubs, but there's no way I can afford a $700 set of irons, $200 per wood, and another $100-250 for the golf bag, so I started shopping around.

There are a ton of websites that offer "replica golf clubs" for "ridiculously low prices" and they're not all created equal. The first can of worms are the "knockoffs;" Made with inferior metals and mass produced, which simply look like the clubs in question. They have a similar logo and a close paint scheme but none of the technological features of the brand name in question. These are junk and no better than the off-brand that looks nothing like the Taylor Mades.

The second type would be the 'clones' which use the same manufacturing process, same tech features, similar logo and paint scheme, but they circumvent the patent by using a slightly different type of metal (but similar enough to produce the same results) or a different groove pattern on the face of the club, or some very minor change to avoid being sued.

I have zero interest in "knockoff" hockey gear, but if someone made a 'clone' that'd be a different story. As Race said, there's no guarantee that the product you're getting is the same quality, or produces the same features as the stick/gloves/skates/helmet that it's 'cloning' but it has been done, and quite well.

I also have to agree that "b" level brands in hockey don't do as well as Easton, Bauer, CCM and Reebok, so even if something like this does happen, it'd probably end up as an ebay type deal, and wouldn't even make it into pro shops. I don't think it'll happen, but it's still a cool thought, and has provoked a great discussion in this thread.

[IPv6Freely 2093]

You're absolutely right about that, and there's definitely a difference between a "clone" or factoty second, and a "knockoff," Here's my experience. I'm a huge fan of Taylor Made golf clubs, but there's no way I can afford a $700 set of irons, $200 per wood, and another $100-250 for the golf bag, so I started shopping around.

There are a ton of websites that offer "replica golf clubs" for "ridiculously low prices" and they're not all created equal. The first can of worms are the "knockoffs;" Made with inferior metals and mass produced, which simply look like the clubs in question. They have a similar logo and a close paint scheme but none of the technological features of the brand name in question. These are junk and no better than the off-brand that looks nothing like the Taylor Mades.

The second type would be the 'clones' which use the same manufacturing process, same tech features, similar logo and paint scheme, but they circumvent the patent by using a slightly different type of metal (but similar enough to produce the same results) or a different groove pattern on the face of the club, or some very minor change to avoid being sued.

I have zero interest in "knockoff" hockey gear, but if someone made a 'clone' that'd be a different story. As Race said, there's no guarantee that the product you're getting is the same quality, or produces the same features as the stick/gloves/skates/helmet that it's 'cloning' but it has been done, and quite well.

I also have to agree that "b" level brands in hockey don't do as well as Easton, Bauer, CCM and Reebok, so even if something like this does happen, it'd probably end up as an ebay type deal, and wouldn't even make it into pro shops. I don't think it'll happen, but it's still a cool thought, and has provoked a great discussion in this thread.

This was my point. And I agree with Axxion89 - it will never happen. But I guess for me, this whole thread revolves around the whole "IF" aspect of it... IF it happened, would I buy it? Damn right.