OEM and Hockeytron

[Stoveman 0]

I'd like to buy the same elbows like 9144 pro, even if they were black and made on Mars. I don't care about branding in this case, I need protection and quality.

In that case, I'd look here:

http://www.hockeyoverstock.com/jofa9144npepsr.html

I don't think a chinese knock off will be much cheaper.

You're absolutely right about that, and there's definitely a difference between a "clone" or factoty second, and a "knockoff,"

When manufacturing in China is involved, there is a fourth possibility and that is "overruns" where the facility manufacturing the equipment under license of companies like CCM, Reebok and Bauer just happens to make a couple extras (or they take all of the intellectual property to their second factory and make a couple hundred thousand extras). The difference between these items and the branded retail items is that they may lack the screened on branding. The earlier example of the 'blue sticks' (mine were bauer vapor xxx) they are the same stick without the silk screening.

The big question is whether they are authorized overruns or unauthorized overruns. Obviously, the brand owner would prefer there not be any overruns, particularly the unauthorized kind. However, we're talking about doing business in China, not La Crosse.

[IPv6Freely 2082]

In that case, I'd look here:

http://www.hockeyoverstock.com/jofa9144npepsr.html

I don't think a chinese knock off will be much cheaper.

When manufacturing in China is involved, there is a fourth possibility and that is "overruns" where the facility manufacturing the equipment under license of companies like CCM, Reebok and Bauer just happens to make a couple extras (or they take all of the intellectual property to their second factory and make a couple hundred thousand extras). The difference between these items and the branded retail items is that they may lack the screened on branding. The earlier example of the 'blue sticks' (mine were bauer vapor xxx) they are the same stick without the silk screening.

The big question is whether they are authorized overruns or unauthorized overruns. Obviously, the brand owner would prefer there not be any overruns, particularly the unauthorized kind. However, we're talking about doing business in China, not La Crosse.

I agree completely. I think this is more likely to happen than any other scenario. Would I buy "unmarked unauthorized overruns"? Oh hell yeah, you bet I would.

[shotty 7]

i think we may be forgetting something:

when easton developed the elliptical taper, they likely patented the design, the own the physical and intellectual property associated with that design and how it enables the product to function that way. they contract out a manufacturer to produce the sticks. they supply the materials, and then they rent the facility along with all its employees and machinery to produce the products for them. for all we know, easton may even own the machinery and simply rent the floor space and the employees to produce the goods. what i'm getting at is that the only thing the factory owns is the contract to produce the products, when the material runs out and the contract expires, they take their cheque to the bank, and bid on another contract. if you build a house for someone, you dont own the house, nor the plans, nor the permits, you got hired to build it and were paid for your services. sorry for the lengthy lead in, but this is what i'm getting at...

the difference between -- and pardon my ignorance if i'm wrong about the music gear -- hockey sticks and drums, is that each equipment company owns the rights and patents on their ever evolving technology (elliptical taper, intellisense, spyne blade, etc), whereas a cymbal stand is a cymbal stand... have they evolved or been reinvented in such a way that they have been improved drastically and are therefore patentable? not that i am aware of. a hockey stick in its basic form is not patentable either, which is why we see features like i noted above. they are patentable. hockey sticks are constantly being tinkered and reinvented to be lighter, stronger, more efficient and for this reason, they cannot be reproduced off brand, unless the manufacturer permits it. by the time some no name manufacturer can replicate an S19 legally, there is already something better out there.

as for generic versions of products; from what i am aware of, there are two ways to do it: companies sell the product at bulk volumes thru "private label" programs. if the branding is already very strong (international, usually) all this does is increase sales volume as the label doesnt see the off brand as a threat (ie, corn pops vs no name corn pops. same thing, different character on the box), just a revenue stream. the other option is to copy or slightly alter a product who's patent has expired and re-market it under a different label and directly compete with the originator

as for overruns, it all depends on the agreement between the manufacturer and the factory. some manufacturers might want to keep them, others may ask for them to be destroyed, and others might sell them off. all depends on the position of the manufacturer.

Edited December 9, 2010 by shotty

[Lee-Bro 1]

<snip>

the difference between -- and pardon my ignorance if i'm wrong about the music gear -- hockey sticks and drums, is that each equipment company owns the rights and patents on their ever evolving technology (elliptical taper, intellisense, spyne blade, etc), whereas a cymbal stand is a cymbal stand... have they evolved or been reinvented in such a way that they have been improved drastically and are therefore patentable? not that i am aware of. a hockey stick in its basic form is not patentable either, which is why we see features like i noted above. they are patentable. hockey sticks are constantly being tinkered and reinvented to be lighter, stronger, more efficient and for this reason, they cannot be reproduced off brand, unless the manufacturer permits it. by the time some no name manufacturer can replicate an S19 legally, there is already something better out there.

Yeah, actually there have been patents on drum hardware. Tama Drums introduced the Lever-Glide hi-hat stand 20+ years ago and had patents on the the level-glide system, they also have patents on their off-the-shell mounts or "suspension mounts" -which opens up the tone & sound of the drum. Other companies have their version of suspension mounts and each are patented. The concept of suspension mounts aren't new. RIMS were introduced in '79 and were the first mass-marketed version. They were, in fact, used by DW until they developed their own version. Most lesser-known drum companies use the RIMS system until they develop their own.

</derail>

I get what everyone is saying. I think the difference between the music gear then & hockey gear now, is that back then the drum market wasn't as competitive, we didn't have internet stuff and the drum reps would openly tell us some of their stuff was same as ABC generic brand only w/ their hardware. I doubt they'd own up to it today and I'm certain a Bauer rep wouldn't say their X:20 is the same as the CCM V02 they each just put their own label on it. (Now don't get in a hussy, I know they're not, just using an example).

I'll stop this journey down the music road because once you get a drummer started... I will say that I find it funny my 2nd expensive hobby is played w/ sticks, wrapped in the same tape as my sticks from my first hobby.

[bostonjuniorblackhawks 1]

It's not easy finding <80 flex RH pro stocks, but that's beside the point. The point is that I'm not brand conscious at all, and the thought of spending $600+ on skates or $200 on a set of custom gloves actually makes me physically ill.

Just because Z player on Y team is using X product doesn't make me any more likely to splurge on X product. I look for quality, not a brand name.

you'd be surprised about the finding them in low flexes, but the extra length on alot of them would make it too stiff when cut

[Buzz_LightBeer 961]

I never said anything about buying knockoffs, I'm talking about buying real products that are being sold as noname brand. You know, like buying generic vs name brand medecine. It's the same thing with a different name stamped on it.

I'm not sure I'd be into buying knockoff protective gear... somehow that just seems like a bad idea.

BTW - way to bring something said in another thread into this one...

Where do you think the big name companies get funding to develop these products you want imitation, generic reproductions of? Because people are willing to spend a few extra dollars for a name that is tried and tested.

[shotty 7]

Easton owns their own factory in Mexico where the S17 and S19 are made with the elliptical taper. They buy their own materials and pay their employees to run Easton owned machinery in their own factory. They own it all.

thats the way is SHOULD be. i worked for a ski company that made a similar switch. bought everything except for the four walls, roof and the dirt it sat on. they shared the space with a company that made surf boards, so for 6 months they made skis, moved their shit out, let the surf guys in to make boards and back and forth they go.

the best thing about having your own staff and machines and whatnot is that you can turn out prototypes and tinker with them quicker and easier. the ski company i worked for used to have to wait 90 days for prototypes, and if they didnt like it, they'd have to tinker with or adjust it, put the order in and wait another 90 days. essentially only getting one or two chances to improve their product for the next season. now it takes them 10 days from sending out the specs, to having prototype in hand. that kind of turn around is invaluable and will put any company that prides themselves on innovation WAY ahead of the curve.

[Invert 13]

To share some insight: Drum Workshop (DW Drums) used to buy their drum shells from Keller, a shell manufacturer here in the states. They would put their own style lugs & such on them, paint (or cover) them, cut bearing edges and send them out the door obviously as DW Drums. Nothing wrong w/ that. I sold tons of them and they are a high-end drum. Nowadays, DW makes their own shells. No biggie.

It was actually even worse than that. Orange County Drum & Percussion used Keller shells also, with a markup probably 3x more than DW.

I'd be all for off-brand hockey gear. If nothing more than to keep companies honest. It doesn't seem like it has hurt the golf industry very much, most people who are serious still have a bag full of TaylorMades or Clevelands (I know I do). What it will do is let someone have a decent performing item at a better price.

That being said, I don't see the CrazyMonkey sticks flying off the racks...

[IPv6Freely 2082]

Where do you think the big name companies get funding to develop these products you want imitation, generic reproductions of? Because people are willing to spend a few extra dollars for a name that is tried and tested.

Well good for them. I'm not a big fan of how you put words into my mouth, though.

[Chadd 916]

The same guys who will buy these "cheap knockoffs" are the same guys who use their LHS as their own personal internet fitting room.

Agreed. I'm really shocked that we haven't seen a "Vapore" or "Supremo" stick come out of China yet. If those went online at half the normal retail price, they would do pretty well.

As far as players today wanting name brand, well, done properly, anything can happen. Fact is that people know hockey is an elitest sport, want to get involved, and maybe a smaller brand with a direct sale to consumer as a "pirate" brand will work.

At the right price point, they could make it work. Give people the look of a top end vapor at the price point of a low end vapor and it will sell, even if the performance isn't the same as the top end vapor.

Hypothetically, if these "rogue" vendors have lots of money to burn chasing a shrinking pool of players to sell "pirate product" to via internet or whatever, good luck to them. They must have lots of better ways to burn their money, though 'cause you and I know this is not the elitest sport to make money in!

Brooklynite, Combat, Miken, Fury, TPS/Sher-Wood, Winnwell, Tackla, Montreal Hockey, just sayin'...............

Knockoff "Easten" or "Rauer" product would sell if it was cheap and had the look, even if it was total crap. A couple plants on places like this extolling the virtues and "rumors" that it was coming from the same factories and you would see a segment of people jumping all over them. Would it succeed over the long term? I don't know, but there would be money made over the short term.

[DarkStar50 679]

Anybody here take Economics 101: Economies of scale?

[Chadd 916]

Anybody here take Economics 101: Economies of scale?

If you have little to no overhead, and you can do that easily, economy of scale doesn't matter. I wouldn't have to pay dozens of people or for warehousing for a few hundred (or thousand) sticks, it could all be done from home in my spare time. On something like 1500 sticks I could probably double my annual income. Someone with better contacts and knowledge could do even better. We aren't talking about someone trying to challenge Bauer, Easton or Warrior for dominance, just someone servicing the people that don't care if their gear is legit or not.

[DarkStar50 679]

Jason Harris may have an opinion on that.

[IPv6Freely 2082]

Anybody here take Economics 101: Economies of scale?

No, I have a real career. (I kid, I kid...)

[Jason Harris 31]

You're both right, Peter, but from different perspectives.

Salming pulled the business from me for two reasons; they felt I hadn't been successful quickly enough, and they had someone else whispering in their ears that he could do better. (Four to five months after letting me go, they let that guy go.) However, I was finally starting to turn a profit, so under certain circumstances I'd say a small guy could carve out a decent living. But those circumstances are crucial, especially if someone doesn't have contacts either with factories overseas or with retailers in North America.

The most important issues are quality and funding. Someone would have to navigate the language and time differences to track down factories that can make hockey equipment to acceptable standards. But that costs money, maybe a thousand dollars or so at a time to receive enough product for testing. I actually tried this just after Salming, ordering some sticks, pants and gloves. The pants and gloves needed a lot of work, whereas I received mixed reviews on the sticks, with Chadd being one of my testers, since I knew he had a gear whore's mentality. Chadd didn't like the stick at its prospective price and was able to give comparison to other sticks he felt would have better value.

There's no doubt the lack of quality can be overcome, but that's where part of the funding comes in. Maybe the products are close enough that you could ship samples back to China and ask them to come closer to those designs. But maybe the products were so bad you have to spend resources tracking down other factories, knowing that more established factories have less need for Joe Small Fish. Let's say we're able to finally find a good product at a reasonable price. That's when the economies of scale come in. I remember the factory telling me I had to buy 300 units of each flex, curve and direction, which is way too many if someone doesn't have the contacts among retailers. Sure, everything's negotiable, but how few could I convince them to make and how much higher would it cost?

Hopefully, our intrepid entrepreneur hasn't spent to much of his cash finding and negotiating over his product, and he's finally landed them in North America. For all practical purposes, he can forget about getting them into stores for the first 18-24 months. Other than Chadd, whom I contacted about reviewing the products, and Jimmy, who took a chance based on comments I made here, the only stores I was able to get Salming's products into were smaller/newer stores that couldn't meet the Big Guys' minimums -- presumably, they wouldn't have called me if they could have carried Easton, even though they ended up liking the Salming product. Living in Denver didn't help, since close to half of the stores in the U.S. are within 2-3 hours of the eastern seaboard, as well as my wife's income was a lot less six years ago to support the lack of income from a startup.

So, you're sitting on 3000-5000 sticks and thousands in debt, and only a few stores will carry them. How do you become whole again? The obvious answer is you have to sell directly to the public, but the not so obvious answer is how do you do that without alienating potential retailers from shutting their doors forever? In my caae, I only sold the previous year's products on eBay -- under a different name -- and only sold directly from the website if someone was X miles from a retailer that was a customer of ours; also, we contacted organizations, made one sale, but tried to run that through the local retailer, who ended up passing.

The bottom line is this would work best with someone who has the contacts, because someone would have to be able to locate quality products, then have enough funding to be able to buy that product and sit on it for quite some time as they try to creatively market it. It's not impossible, but it's compounded by the fact this industry is an old school industry; the only way you get 98% of the people to buy new products is by getting it into their hands in a demo for them to turn and look at you quizzically, "Wow, this is pretty nice! How come I've never heard of it??!!"

That said, Chadd's right that the operating costs are low enough for Joe Small Fish that he could ultimately earn $30K, $50K, $70k selling a no-name brand once he's established it to a small extent.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Jason Harris

[DarkStar50 679]

Thanks Jason. That is a very interesting real life description. Ultimately, it sounds like high risk with ???? reward. So, who wants to jump in with the investor capital and get things started?

[All Flash 49]

SunlitWILL can u plz elaborate?

[TBLfan 25]

SunlitWILL can u plz elaborate?

lolz

[shotty 7]

when asking for confidential information, the LEAST you could do is spell his username right.

[DarkStar50 679]

Some of us have done it before and may be dipping back into it. People laughed the first go around and we had the last laugh. We'll see what happens.

[Jason Harris 31]

In comparison to someone like me who had never been involved in the hockey world, as well as was underfunded to take on the whole U.S., I think someone like Marcelo could do it. He has the experience and connections on the retail side, probably could come up with contacts on the production side, and has a (I presume profitable) business that could fund a new venture.

It won't be easy, but there are small pieces of the pie that can be had under the right circumstances.

[Chadd 916]

It won't be easy, but there are small pieces of the pie that can be had under the right circumstances.

That's the key, it's not about competing with Bauer, Easton or RBK, just putting a few bucks in your own pocket.

[Stoveman 0]

That's the key, it's not about competing with Bauer, Easton or RBK, just putting a few bucks in your own pocket.

There concepts at work here are pretty 'simple' in that 'all' you have to do is conceptualize your product, design it, prototype it, test it, produce it, distribute it and sell it. Of course, if you would like to do it more than once or twice, you should keep in mind that it is important to receive incoming cash from customers (aka revenue or gross sales) that exceeds all of your costs, plus a little more for your profit so you don't starve. If you chose to manufacture anything in China, you do it knowing full well that all of your intellectual property will go out the back door and down the street to a different facility and that you will likely be competing with your own product in the marketplace.

Take a look at the history of Cisco and Huawei (I am pretty sure that neither makes hockey gear).

The stick business is a little different than the protective biz due to the highly engineered product which can be scientifically measured against its peers and the belief of the purchasing masses that a particular stick will enable a truly dreadful player to dangle with the best of them and go top-shelf like the stock boy at 7-11.

While the advent of advanced materials has completely change the stick-making process, it has also opened the door for new comers. You can go two ways, buy blank product from manufacturers in China (probably could get sticks out of the same factories that make the major brands' sticks) and put your own artwork on them or you can make your own. It is surprisingly easy to make things out of carbon fiber, I do it in my basement. I repair my broken sticks with aircraft grade CF and have done a bunch of other products with CF and CF/Aramid fibers. That said, mass producing CF hockey sticks is not likely to be a basement-business. To do it properly is expensive to get started. As a business, you need to have at least a prayer of making back the start up costs, in addition to covering other CAPEX and OPEX. Therefore, you need to have the expectation that a sufficiently large market for your product, at the price you plan to sell it, exists.

A few years back, when composite stick were first introduced, manufacturers were faced with the prospect of completely reinventing their manufacturing processes and plants. There were some considerable costs associated with the transition and given the fact that making and selling hockey gear has never been the most profitable businesses, some companies balked at the price tag. There were several manufacturers some of whom actually made composite sticks and some that just put their logos on sticks produced by others. Montreal, Christian Bros, Canadien, Titan, Jofa, Inno, CCM, Bauer, Hespler, Torspo, TPS, Easton etc. During the ensuing consolidation of the hockey equipment industry led by Reebok and Nike, the ones that manufactured the best quickly became prized targets of the larger consolidating forces. Warrior bought Montreal and then Innovative (who made sticks for multiple other brands) for their respective stick making prowess. Reebohemoth needed the Jofa stick biz (in addition to their protective stuff) and so on.

Harrow is trying to sell as a similar product at a better price point. If you look at their pattern chart, it says "similar to [sackic, drury, etc]. I forgot the name of some boutique stick maker in NYC.

The question isn't can you beat RBK, Warrior, Bauer and Easton it is more one of "can you make a profit doing this?"

If done properly, I believe it can be done.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Stoveman

[critch 0]

i know a guy who buys sticks from some factory in China, and the sticks are from the bauer factory, but with no decals so he gets a totalone with only the carbon weave for something like $50

[Chadd 916]

i know a guy who buys sticks from some factory in China, and the sticks are from the bauer factory, but with no decals so he gets a totalone with only the carbon weave for something like $50

Every factory in China claims they make Bauer sticks.