Forward stride: Parallel track or leg under

[flyers10 57]

I searched but didn't see a topic that compared this. It seems that the current idea being taught by skating coaches is to bring the leg back under the body and then push back out to get a longer more powerful stride. However, it seems that some of the fastest skaters in years past and in today's NHL still skate with a more parallel "railroad" tracks style stride. Since there are not many times during a game where you are just going straight ahead for a long distance compared to shorter distances, stop/starts & cutbacks, that the parallel style is more efficient for hockey and better for balance while people trying to bump you off the puck while under the leg is better for speed skating and figure skating. So which truly is better to work on for a hockey player?

[zebra_steve 11]

It may just be my physiology - or 40 years of muscle memory, but if I "railroad track" as you call it v.s. the classic power skating stride I lose power, speed, and agility. I also develop pain in my ankles, knees, and hips..... My personal feeling is that the railroad tracking became more prevalent due to the increasing lack of proper forward flex in the current skate boots and the uber-stiff tendon guards that prevented full stride extension and toe point.

[Chadd 916]

Ideally, you want to bring your feet back under your body, there is more length to your power stroke. Some people are able to do get enough power out of a less efficient stride. The wider your hips are, the harder it will be to get your feet back under you.

[MyBoxersSayJoe 133]

A lot of times, I see the "railroad" style skaters have very fast, quick strides. And I usually think to myself if they kept that speed, but bent the knees more and lengthened their stride, they'd be really hard to catch.

[zebra_steve 11]

A lot of times, I see the "railroad" style skaters have very fast, quick strides. And I usually think to myself if they kept that speed, but bent the knees more and lengthened their stride, they'd be really hard to catch.

+1

This is why the big guys (that know how to skate) are deceptively fast - but not considered to be very "quick"... long powerful strides that make them look like they aren't moving versus the little guys that are "quick" really with fast short powerful strides..... Imagine if Chara could move his feet as fast as Ovetchkin can????

[Konig von Kuhlem 0]

According to the Sean Skinner Ultimate Hockey Skating DVDs, scientific studies have observed fast players during the acceleration phase having the leg returning under the body. However, at top speed the style switches to more of the "parallel track" style.

[zebra_steve 11]

According to the Sean Skinner Ultimate Hockey Skating DVDs, scientific studies have observed fast players during the acceleration phase having the leg returning under the body. However, at top speed the style switches to more of the "parallel track" style.

I would like to see the videos and documentation on that... it sounds very interesting.... it's really a question of physics and biomechanics.

[wrangler 157]

I don't really get the "railroad track" idea. When I have to really accelerate, it's stick stretched out, head down, and long power strides. I don't exactly bring my feet under me, I kinda rock my weight from side to side, to keep my center of gravity in front of my striding foot.

[GoBucky 0]

Every skating instruction that Ive seen teaches to return the leg back under the body. IMO, a longer stride is going to make your skating more efficent and thats what returning the leg back under helps you to do.

[ktang 34]

Most people can do more weight in partial squats than in 90-degree, parallel, or deep squats because the Vastus Medialus ("teardrop") muscle only engages in the last 30 degrees of leg extension. So it makes sense to me that, to get to top speed with the most force, a skater would wide-track. It would be less efficient than a full stride, but more powerful because more of this (less efficient) stride would be at full power.

When Guerin won his fastest-skater skills competition he wide-tracked all the way around.

[MyBoxersSayJoe 133]

I would like to see the videos and documentation on that... it sounds very interesting.... it's really a question of physics and biomechanics.

I'd think at that point it's a question of still accelerating, or if it's just maintaining speed. I was always under the impression in general that it should take about 3 quick, short strides to get your body moving and then you'd go into the long strides.

[Jordan 13]

When Guerin won his fastest-skater skills competition he wide-tracked all the way around.

And when Mike Gartner was perpetually the fastest skater in the league he had a long fluid stride with his leg returning under.

Some humans, who have very fasy feet (quick twitch ets) get away with sub-optimal technique...doesn't mean that you should skate that way.

[ktang 34]

And when Mike Gartner was perpetually the fastest skater in the league he had a long fluid stride with his leg returning under.

Some humans, who have very fasy feet (quick twitch ets) get away with sub-optimal technique...doesn't mean that you should skate that way.

But, didn't Gartner have an extremely long (for the time) radius (13'-14')? With that long of a radius he had to use an efficient stride, like a long-track speed skater (28').

Sami Kapanen, Fedorov, and Mogilny also seemed to not use the classic full recovery of a Scott Niedermayer.

If you look at high jumpers and basketball players, they don't crouch with their knees going to 90 degrees before they jump; they want to spend most of their energy as quickly as possible in the power zone.

A lot of power skating instruction advocates the full recovery, but is that correct for getting maximum speed? or for aesthetics? or for efficiency? These objectives may not be achievable with the same stride technique for every body type. For certain body proportions, the full recovery may lead to sub-optimal top speed.

Bracko's paper references Marino and Weese's paper, and the recovery for the fast skaters was in line with the shoulder, knee, and hip (NOT the mid-line of the body, aka "full recovery" / "efficient stride"). Some of the conclusions was that stride width and stride frequency were more important than stride length.

I think HNIC talked briefly about this during the telecast of the Oilers-Canadiens game last Saturday (I think in reference to Bracko's analysis of Taylor Hall's stride).

Here is the paper:

"Biomechanics Powers Ice Hockey Performance"

And here is an article that sums up Bracko's vs Hockey Canada's ideas on the stride:

"Young pucksters skating on thin ice, says hockey researcher"

[zebra_steve 11]

But, didn't Gartner have an extremely long (for the time) radius (13'-14')? With that long of a radius he had to use an efficient stride, like a long-track speed skater (28').

Sami Kapanen, Fedorov, and Mogilny also seemed to not use the classic full recovery of a Scott Niedermayer.

If you look at high jumpers and basketball players, they don't crouch with their knees going to 90 degrees before they jump; they want to spend most of their energy as quickly as possible in the power zone.

A lot of power skating instruction advocates the full recovery, but is that correct for getting maximum speed? or for aesthetics? or for efficiency? These objectives may not be achievable with the same stride technique for every body type. For certain body proportions, the full recovery may lead to sub-optimal top speed.

Bracko's paper references Marino and Weese's paper, and the recovery for the fast skaters was in line with the shoulder, knee, and hip (NOT the mid-line of the body, aka "full recovery" / "efficient stride"). Some of the conclusions was that stride width and stride frequency were more important than stride length.

I think HNIC talked briefly about this during the telecast of the Oilers-Canadiens game last Saturday (I think in reference to Bracko's analysis of Taylor Hall's stride).

Here is the paper:

"Biomechanics Powers Ice Hockey Performance"

And here is an article that sums up Bracko's vs Hockey Canada's ideas on the stride:

"Young pucksters skating on thin ice, says hockey researcher"

Looked at the paper and the illustrations look like pretty classic stride positions.... and reading it, It seems a bit confusing... specified a range for their "optimal" foot width but no mention of measuring the players hip width or leg length as part of the study. The biggest thing that I saw was stating the obvious - the fastest skaters kept their foot closer to the ice and returned it quicker at the end of the stride....DUH!..... I also never see them actually give the direction of the push in degrees (though they do quote the knee bend measurements). A LOT of important information has been ommitted.

Where I do agree with them is that the short, quick, choppy stride would be faster over shorter distances.... I do question what physical strains are being placed on the joints with the change in motions and positions, and whether it is HEALTHIER OR POTENTIALLY MORE DETRIMENTAL in the long run. IRRC the skating motion in general contributes greatly to the problems many of us have with lower back, Hip Flexors, and IT bands later in our "careers". We end up having muscular strength and flexibility imbalances caused by skating and not stretching properly and cross training and doing core strengthening....

[ktang 34]

Looked at the paper and the illustrations look like pretty classic stride positions.... and reading it, It seems a bit confusing... specified a range for their "optimal" foot width but no mention of measuring the players hip width or leg length as part of the study. The biggest thing that I saw was stating the obvious - the fastest skaters kept their foot closer to the ice and returned it quicker at the end of the stride....DUH!..... I also never see them actually give the direction of the push in degrees (though they do quote the knee bend measurements). A LOT of important information has been ommitted.

Where I do agree with them is that the short, quick, choppy stride would be faster over shorter distances.... I do question what physical strains are being placed on the joints with the change in motions and positions, and whether it is HEALTHIER OR POTENTIALLY MORE DETRIMENTAL in the long run. IRRC the skating motion in general contributes greatly to the problems many of us have with lower back, Hip Flexors, and IT bands later in our "careers". We end up having muscular strength and flexibility imbalances caused by skating and not stretching properly and cross training and doing core strengthening....

I think that hockey players benefit more from the short, quick, choppy strides for short distance races to the puck or for positioning.

My cousin, a sports med doctor, would agree with you in that he thinks that hockey skating contributes to lower back problems. So I know that I should be stretching more off- and in-season, but I've been too lazy to keep it up.

For reffing, though, the full recovery skating style would be better because it is more important to skate efficiently (I ref too). But when I need to catch up to a stretch pass play I only recover to under the hips / shoulders.

[flyers10 57]

For reffing, though, the full recovery skating style would be better because it is more important to skate efficiently (I ref too). But when I need to catch up to a stretch pass play I only recover to under the hips / shoulders.

I seem to notice refs doing parallel track when they race down to the other end of the rink on an icing.

[Trooper 8]

I know Laura Stamm advocates bringing the stride leg under to essentially the center point of the body. But Robby Glantz shows railroad track mechanics in his videos. I would have to check but I think the premise was that even by bringing it under you don't transfer to your inside edge for push off until the foot is in the railroad position anyway.

[Powerfibers 8]

Having seen the Stamm videos, etc... it seems that after watching the videos on the Institute for Hockey Research that the narrow track (back under body Stamm style) is more exaggerated and therefore inefficient. The IfHR videos don't necessarily look like Stamm's approach to me (the ones they speak against).

Could the concept of bringing the feet back under be more for visualization purposes for the skater? Maybe it simply is said to encourage the quick recovery and full weight on each push.

[IniNew 53]

I thought Laura's method had you actually start the push on your outside edge and as the stride developed you began to get to your inside edge and then all the way out. The railroad seems more effective for quick movements, though.

[Trooper 8]

I thought Laura's method had you actually start the push on your outside edge and as the stride developed you began to get to your inside edge and then all the way out. The railroad seems more effective for quick movements, though.

Yeah, when you bring the leg under she has you on the outside edge then you roll to the inside as you begin your push. I think your last sentence says it all. In hockey I think the difference is always in the first couple strides. Races are won and lost in the first 20 feet or so, not in long skates up ice.

[Speedz98 15]

Any one have any videos that are direct examples of each style so we can watch side by side?

[IniNew 53]

Any one have any videos that are direct examples of each style so we can watch side by side?

[wrangler 157]

[Crosby-Niedermayer video not copied]

OK, which of the appellations -- "railroad track, etc." -- being used in this thread apply to the two styles shown in the video?

[Jordan 13]

OK, which of the appellations -- "railroad track, etc." -- being used in this thread apply to the two styles shown in the video?

In the video: The first skater (Niedermayer skater) is the "full recovery leg under" skater. The second skater (Crosby skater) is the wide track/railroad track skater.

I would submit that the optimal skater would be a hybrid. Where quick starts, and early acceleration are more like the wide trackers, and as they pick up speed the stride lengethens and evolves into more of a leg under full recovery style.

I would further argue, that what works best for YOU has more to do with one's physiology. I suspect that taller long boned legs (ie Gartner) do better with a long stride and glide with full recovery. I also suspect that those with bowed legs and a stocky build and thick powerful quads do better with a wide track and constant power.

[wrangler 157]

In the video: The first skater (Niedermayer skater) is the "full recovery leg under" skater. The second skater (Crosby skater) is the wide track/railroad track skater.

I would submit that the optimal skater would be a hybrid. Where quick starts, and early acceleration are more like the wide trackers, and as they pick up speed the stride lengethens and evolves into more of a leg under full recovery style.

I would further argue, that what works best for YOU has more to do with one's physiology. I suspect that taller long boned legs (ie Gartner) do better with a long stride and glide with full recovery. I also suspect that those with bowed legs and a stocky build and thick powerful quads do better with a wide track and constant power.

Thanks. I tend to agree with you that technique can be dictated by the situation and need, as well as the body weight, geometry, and musculature.