Wade Belak found dead

[Chadd 916]

Hockey is the only sport I can think of, in which guys can actually be "not skilled enough" to make a team, yet make it because of their ability to fight.

And that is exactly why the game isn't taken seriously by a lot of people. There are a number of good reasons why the NHL is at the bottom of the list when it comes to the national sports landscape and that is one of the top reasons.

All that said, my original point still remains... people can't apply the head-injury discussion to all of these deaths. Doing so would be irresponsible.

There is the difference between us. I think it's more important to medically rule it out as a contributing factor before allowing fighting to continue and you've already decided that it isn't part of the problem

[jds 20]

Interesting take on being an enforcer from Georges Laraque. Here

Another piece on painkillers in hockey . (sorry JR, Justin Bourne is quoted in the piece) Here

[micam00 2]

i dont think belak would do that to himself either. so i was looking around for accidental suffocation. auto-erotic asphyxiation seems to be a little more common than i thought. DEFINITELY NOT anything that has been reported. just trying to figure out why his death might have happened.

My link

[Axxion89 32]

I think the main thing to keep in mind is that none of us nor the people who speculate on these deaths truly know the root cause or events that lead to each death. There are a million factors that could lead someone to take their own life as many of us unfortunately know of first hand and in my experience, some that do often appear as if they have nothing wrong with them at all. What we do know is that all three were enforcers who died around the same age, Belak being the oldest. All three are reported to be suffering from depression. I do not personally think that blows to the head is the primary cause of this but rather the lifestyle of an enforcer which is the leading factor. I also do not believe that taking fighting out of the game is the appropriate solution because its going to be there in some form one way or another no matter how you try. The better thing to do is to appoint a therapist to each team to speak with ALL players about any issues they may be having so that they can get treatment for their conditions.

At the end of the day, if we assume that the lifestyle of an NHL enforcer was what caused these 3 men's deaths, then you do have to hold these men accountable for their deaths. As Venom said, nobody forces you to be an enforcer or to be an NHL player. If the lifestyle is something that truly makes you depressed, they should leave the sport or find the appropriate treatment and therapy to fix their issues and bring them at peace. What has happened this summer is terribly unfortunate but at the same time, it is an opportunity for the NHL and NHLPA to look into these matters and discover the root causes of these deaths from an NHL standpoint and figure out a way to make sure that anyone in Belak, Boogaard, or Rypien's situation gets the medical attention they need to save some lives.

[wrangler 157]

Just to recap:

Axxion89-

I can't agree with your logic, even granting your premises, arguendo, that a guy makes a choice to become an enforcer, and that this choice engenders depression leading to suicide. Once the depression exists, it can take over, and can burden all subsequent decisions, including whether to leave the enforcer role. People can't make rational choices with messed up heads.

******

[this part is directed to the thread, generally]

Further, I don't understand folks' need to make WAGs here about these deaths.

We don't know all the facts about these deaths.

We don't have the root causes.

We don't have an established connection between all these deaths and depression.

We don't have an established connection between these deaths and being an NHL tough guy.

We don't have any established connection between these deaths.

I guess I don't see how anyone figures they can determine anything at all in such a data vacuum.

[All Flash 49]

or he did it to thrust this issue further into the spotlight?

sacrifice for the good of the team...................

anything is possible when we dont know all the facts

RIP boys

[Jason Harris 31]

All three are reported to be suffering from depression. I do not personally think that blows to the head cause this....

The medical community unequivocally believes head trauma can cause depression and that it does so often.

[Jason Harris 31]

We don't have an established connection between all these deaths and depression.

No, but we do have an established connection that all three had been suffering from depression, and that two of the deaths were definitely suicide while the third was assumed to be suicide.

As one who is very positive by nature, and who only contemplated suicide once for about three minutes because I didn't know if I'd have the guts to look my wife in the eye and say I just lost $88K of our money, I will postulate that upbeat people would almost never consider suicide without an underlying incident. Consequently, in general, depression would need to be present in the overwhelming majority of suicides.

What we don't know, however, is whether their depressions were caused by repeated blows to the head, chemical imbalances, financial factors, or whatever. However, with all due respect, I don't understand why we're allowed to speculate about any other topics on this message board -- which skates fit best, which team will win the division, which mountain bikes are the best value -- but we're not supposed to conjecture whether their depressions might have been caused by their job or their lifestyle. To my mind, if the family of these men donate their brains for study and it turns out they suffered from CTE, then I consider it a Public Service Announcement that head traumas can have catastrophic consequences. For instance, just four posts up, Axxion89 said he didn't believe head traumas can lead to depression, but he's deadly wrong in that opinion and I believe it's important for him and others to learn that.

[wrangler 157]

Jason-

Maybe I should have stated my thoughts more extensively. The problem I have with the speculation I addressed is with the extent of the chain of assumptions leading to the conclusion that these may all be suicides due to hockey fights, or being hockey enforcers, and that, because of this, we need to Do Something. From what I know of you, and what you've stated, I know you understand my point.

I'd just like to see the number of leaps in logic limited to something less than Olympic-class, if we're going to attempt to advocate action based on such analysis. To me, this seems an exercise in futility.

BTW, I didn't see that more than one death was determined to be suicide. Maybe I'm a bit behind on the updates?

[jds 20]

BTW, I didn't see that more than one death was determined to be suicide. Maybe I'm a bit behind on the updates?

Rypien hanged himself and that is being reported as the cause of death for Belak as well/

[wrangler 157]

Thanks. I had thought that they weren't sure about Belak.

[maxamillion 3]

Rypien hanged himself and that is being reported as the cause of death for Belak as well/

Rypien's COD was never reported. However, It's been all but confirmed that it was a suicide.

[Axxion89 32]

The medical community unequivocally believes head trauma can cause depression and that it does so often.

I looked over my post and worded what I said very badly. What I meant to say was the I do not think blows to the head is the primary reason but is certainly an important factor, but that the lifestyle is more to blame. I still maintain my point being that the lifestyle itself has more to do with the depression than the fighting, otherwise, we would see far more cases of Boxers, Football players, and many other athletes suffer from depression from head trauma. Also, we need to keep in mind that these players may have been suffering depression for prolonged periods of time, maybe even before they ever made it to the NHL and I think the league and doctors need to realize this possibility and look to find the root causes of these deaths and many similar ones.

[Chadd 916]

The problem I have with the speculation I addressed is with the extent of the chain of assumptions leading to the conclusion that these may all be suicides due to hockey fights, or being hockey enforcers, and that, because of this, we need to Do Something.

My position is simply that they should do something until it can be ruled out as a contributing factor in the deaths. There are always going to be multiple factors that lead to people taking their own life. If it is a factor, there are most likely many other players dealing with depression, though they are better able to cope with it for some reason. The NHL and NHLPA should be talking to a wide range of current and former players, and their families, to judge the impact and then determine if it is an issue. Even if it is limited to a handful of players, an expansion of the established assistance programs would be a good step to help those players.

I still maintain my point being that the lifestyle itself has more to do with the depression than the fighting, otherwise, we would see far more cases of Boxers, Football players, and many other athletes suffer from depression from head trauma.

Seriously? There have been countless stories over the last few years about all of the football players having problems and it has been a known issue with fighters for a long time.

[bigdmac 12]

I looked over my post and worded what I said very badly. What I meant to say was the I do not think blows to the head is the primary reason but is certainly an important factor, but that the lifestyle is more to blame. I still maintain my point being that the lifestyle itself has more to do with the depression than the fighting, otherwise, we would see far more cases of Boxers, Football players, and many other athletes suffer from depression from head trauma.

I'm not sure how much you know about boxing, but there has been MANY issues with boxers after their career. There has been hundreds of boxing related deaths, as well as complications following boxers careers. A professional boxer takes a WAY more shots in the head, then any hockey enforcer. Boxing is 10 times worse then your average hockey fight, and always will be.

[wrangler 157]

Chadd-

I understand. I just don't see that we've got enough data, especially considering the sample size, to justify that approach. I'd like to see something more, before shifting the burden to others, telling them they have to prove there's no connection to the suicides.

But that's just my opinion on the reasoning. You know I'd like to see the fighting go, and I think we have a lot of other reasons to do that, and no significant reasons to keep it. I just want to watch hockey, and, for me, that means a puck in play.

[Chadd 916]

Chadd-

I understand. I just don't see that we've got enough data, especially considering the sample size, to justify that approach. I'd like to see something more, before shifting the burden to others, telling them they have to prove there's no connection to the suicides.

But that's just my opinion on the reasoning. You know I'd like to see the fighting go, and I think we have a lot of other reasons to do that, and no significant reasons to keep it. I just want to watch hockey, and, for me, that means a puck in play.

We agree for the most part. Plus, it's not like there is a "right" or wrong answer in this situation.

I really have no issue with fighting personally. Bob Probert was one of my favorite players in the late 80's and early 90s, but he could actually score goals too. Like many of the people posted here, I wish teams would get away from designated goons who are there to intimidate the real players. I just don't see how the NHL could legislate that. It appears, from the various NHL player comments and medical research, that both fighting and the role of a fighter both contribute to depression issues among those players. Eliminating the role would serve to eliminate both of those causes.

[skyscrape 5]

Seriously? There have been countless stories over the last few years about all of the football players having problems and it has been a known issue with fighters for a long time.

This just goes to show that this is one of the things that gets swept under the rug. Most people do not know this.

Sounds like Lee Roy Selmon was healthy enough that a stroke at 56 seems strange to me.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-obit-leeroyselmon

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

Sad - he was huge in Tampa Bay.

[wrangler 157]

Chadd-

You are not alone.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/must+fighting/5353724/story.html

[jds 20]

The seriousness of the issue is apparently add odds with our popular culture as reflected inthis comedy scheduled for TIFF, ironically where this documentary about the tough life of a hockey enforcer is also being screened.

On another note, perhaps this thread should be branched off into one about fighting/enforcers in hockey as opposed to being linked to one started about Belak's death. I suspect this topic will continue

[chippa13 1844]

Chadd-

I understand. I just don't see that we've got enough data, especially considering the sample size, to justify that approach. I'd like to see something more, before shifting the burden to others, telling them they have to prove there's no connection to the suicides.

But that's just my opinion on the reasoning. You know I'd like to see the fighting go, and I think we have a lot of other reasons to do that, and no significant reasons to keep it. I just want to watch hockey, and, for me, that means a puck in play.

One is an anomaly, two is a coincidence, three is a pattern.

[wrangler 157]

The seriousness of the issue is apparently add odds with our popular culture as reflected inthis comedy scheduled for TIFF, ironically where this documentary about the tough life of a hockey enforcer is also being screened.

On another note, perhaps this thread should be branched off into one about fighting/enforcers in hockey as opposed to being linked to one started about Belak's death. I suspect this topic will continue

Stifler can skate?

One is an anomaly, two is a coincidence, three is a pattern.

Not necessarily; such a thesis requires a bit more in terms of statistical support. A sample of three is significant in a population of five, for example, but not in a population of a million. At what level does three become significant? That's something proponents of this thesis will have to show, to support it.

[chippa13 1844]

Three becomes significant when they occur within a 4 month period and you're talking about 2 current and 1 recently retired player who all played a similar role in a league where each team only employs 1-2 of these guys at the NHL level. What I would like someone to gather is the statistics on the number of guys who never made it that we never hear about who have the same problems. Guys who fought to stay in the "A" or the East Coast league, what happens to them? Something to consider, with players so much stronger these days, this could be the beginning of a troubling new trend.

[nsegall 0]

Forgive me if someone else has already brought up this point. But these enforcer suicides are most likely not from brain damage suffered from fighting. These players have probably been enforcers their entire career. Those who are enforcers a lot of the time are the way they are because they grew up in an abusive home and are more prone to violence, and fighting in hockey was their way of getting their rage out. So these players suffered from depression and whatnot probably because of their poor upbringing, not because of what they suffered form hockey fights. It's a much, much more deep rooted and complex issue with them and their pasts than just fighting in hockey.