2011-2012 Suspension thread

[Chadd 916]

It's interesting you say that Chadd, on WIP the hosts compared it to a Stevens hit as a way of supporting its legality.

I have a different take on Stevens than a lot of people.

[camhockey16 5]

did kronwall leave his feet? i would have to watch it a few more times it's hard to tell

[Chadd 916]

did kronwall leave his feet? i would have to watch it a few more times it's hard to tell

No, he lined up the head and brought his shoulder up high, but did not leave his feet. If he had left his feet, Voracek would have been better off.

[steelnation248 101]

It's pretty obvious that I am a Wings fan. That being said, I think the hit is legal. I think Voracek should be somewhat responsible for seeing Kronwall coming and keeping his head down to find the puck. When you see a guy coming in at you like that, you should be held somewhat responsible for sticking your head extended from your body. It is a similar situation to the Letang hit in my opinion. Both players who were hit could have ignored the puck and focused on avoiding the hitter. Instead they put themselves in a difficult scenario by doing the opposite.

Then again, I'm looking through red color glasses so who knows. I often question whether or not Kron leaves his feet prior to or as a result of the hit but this one seems like he shouldn't be punished because the other guy skated with his head down. I'll be interested to see what happens though.

[Chadd 916]

It's pretty obvious that I am a Wings fan. That being said, I think the hit is legal. I think Voracek should be somewhat responsible for seeing Kronwall coming and keeping his head down to find the puck. When you see a guy coming in at you like that, you should be held somewhat responsible for sticking your head extended from your body. It is a similar situation to the Letang hit in my opinion. Both players who were hit could have ignored the puck and focused on avoiding the hitter. Instead they put themselves in a difficult scenario by doing the opposite.

Then again, I'm looking through red color glasses so who knows. I often question whether or not Kron leaves his feet prior to or as a result of the hit but this one seems like he shouldn't be punished because the other guy skated with his head down. I'll be interested to see what happens though.

The biggest difference between this and Letang is that Letang knew he had someone coming at him. Voracek looked up and saw Kronwall stationary at the blue line, then looked back and down to get the puck. Kronwall waited until he was looking the other way and unable to see him coming before he going after Voracek. Much like the hit on Letang it was a player taking advantage of someone in a vulnerable position and trying to knock him out.

It looks like dozens of other hits Kronwall has had and I don't recall him being suspended for any of them in the past. I do not like this kind of hit and think it's bad for the game, but it is unlikely that he will be suspended for it. The only suspension/fine potential to me is that the head certainly does appear to be the principal point of contact and Kronwall does seem to raise up a bit. That could be interpreted as targeting the head, but could just as easily be overlooked.

[steelnation248 101]

The biggest difference between this and Letang is that Letang knew he had someone coming at him. Voracek looked up and saw Kronwall stationary at the blue line, then looked back and down to get the puck. Kronwall waited until he was looking the other way and unable to see him coming before he going after Voracek. Much like the hit on Letang it was a player taking advantage of someone in a vulnerable position and trying to knock him out.

It looks like dozens of other hits Kronwall has had and I don't recall him being suspended for any of them in the past. I do not like this kind of hit and think it's bad for the game, but it is unlikely that he will be suspended for it. The only suspension/fine potential to me is that the head certainly does appear to be the principal point of contact and Kronwall does seem to raise up a bit. That could be interpreted as targeting the head, but could just as easily be overlooked.

Good point, I didn't think about that.

I can not think of a suspension for Kronwall in the last 3 or 4 years. As for the raising it, that seems to be his hit style.

[troy 12]

I have a different take on Stevens than a lot of people.

I share that opinion, it seems people don't believe a hit is dirty unless feet are off the ice and elbows are flying. He was just very good at making dirty hits look clean.

[crazyhick 19]

i think it's a clean hit. he went for center of mass like what shanny wants. Voracek miss played the puck and tried to stay with the puck instead of protecting himself. Yea, the head was "the principle point of contact", but it almost always is during a north-south hit. Also during the video, you can see a screw or two fall onto the ice after the back of his head hits, which probably contributed to the injury more than the hit itself

[goblue9280 33]

seems like blindsiding... Nothing would have prevented Kronwall from putting that tucked elbow into Voracek's left shoulder.

The hit came from directly in front of Voracek... it's not blindsiding. Kronwall hit him straight down the midline of the body, the reason the head was the primary point of contact was because Voracek had his down and extended in a vulnerable position. This was not a Stevens type hit... Stevens would come east-west from a guys peripheral, and would target an extended head when he could easily target the body.

[hockeymass 11]

The fact is that almost every Kronwall highlight reel hit seems to either be a headshot or him jumping in the air. Weird that he seems to be the only player that causes guys to look at their feet when they see him coming.

[Machinehead2k5 32]

It's pretty obvious that I am a Wings fan. That being said, I think the hit is legal. I think Voracek should be somewhat responsible for seeing Kronwall coming and keeping his head down to find the puck. When you see a guy coming in at you like that, you should be held somewhat responsible for sticking your head extended from your body. It is a similar situation to the Letang hit in my opinion. Both players who were hit could have ignored the puck and focused on avoiding the hitter. Instead they put themselves in a difficult scenario by doing the opposite.

Then again, I'm looking through red color glasses so who knows. I often question whether or not Kron leaves his feet prior to or as a result of the hit but this one seems like he shouldn't be punished because the other guy skated with his head down. I'll be interested to see what happens though.

The object of the game is to play the puck, not demolition derby. Nystrom's hit isn't as bad as Kronwall's it. Kronwall took adv of a vulnerable opponent, where he easily could've played the puck and not gone for the kill shot.

[goblue9280 33]

Weird that he seems to be the only player that causes guys to look at their feet when they see him coming.

No, he lays a lot of hits, it's just the highlight reel hits seem to occur (like the do 90% of the time for everyone else) when the other player happens to put his head down.

Is anyone going to argue that Vorachek did not put himself in a vulnerable position? Because that's half of the rule.

[EBondo 233]

I'm a Flyers fan. BUT, I do not like Kronwall's style of play one bit, like Chadd said. He's a modern version of Scott Stevens. Time and time again kronwall takes advantage of players being in vulnerable positions, disregarding the puck completely. It was a reckless head shot no matter which way you look at it. Head up or head down, the principle point of contact is his head, which is illegal last time I checked. Kronwall is a dirty player, and we've had conversations about this many times before because of hits like this. I mean he was discussed a couple of pages ago for a hit similar to this. I'd like to see him miss a few games for this, but I don't think he will. Fine, at best.

[EBondo 233]

Bob McKenzie just tweeted, no supplemental discipline. NHL says they don't want this kind of hit out of the league.

[hockeymass 11]

No, he lays a lot of hits, it's just the highlight reel hits seem to occur (like the do 90% of the time for everyone else) when the other player happens to put his head down.

Is anyone going to argue that Vorachek did not put himself in a vulnerable position? Because that's half of the rule.

He's trying to play the puck. What constitutes a vulnerable position? Skating? It's not like Voracek got low. Kronwall also leaves his skates, yet again.

[goblue9280 33]

Head up or head down, the principle point of contact is his head, which is illegal last time I checked.

No, you're wrong. You're ignoring half of the rule. From rule 48: "However, in determining whether such a hit should have been permitted, the circumstances of the hit, including whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit"

Vorachek looked up, say someone at the blueline, and then put his head back down. He continued to skate forward, with his head down and extended out. Kronwall came in for a hit right at Vorachek's chest/midline. Kronwall did not adjust his body to target the head, he did not use an elbow/forearm/hands/stick to target the head, and he did not leave his feet. Vorachek's head was the principal point of contact because of where he put it, i.e. extended at shoulder height, and looking down.

I'm a lifelong wings fan, so there is some inherent bias in my opinion. However, there have been Kronwall hits in the past that I thought were borderline, namely when he dips down just before the hit and explodes upwards... this just isn't one of them.

I thought I'd add the puck daddy critic of the hit: http://sports.yahoo....-020852563.html

Kronwall also leaves his skates, yet again.

huh? Kronwall didn't leave his skates to deliver that hit... his skates barely come off the ground AFTER the hit was delivered.

[hockeymass 11]

Bob McKenzie just tweeted, no supplemental discipline. NHL says they don't want this kind of hit out of the league.

So this is a suspension:

But this is not:

Got it. Shanny justice!

[goblue9280 33]

If you can't see the differences in those two hits, then this is a moot discussion.

[hockeymass 11]

No, you're wrong. You're ignoring half of the rule. From rule 48: "However, in determining whether such a hit should have been permitted, the circumstances of the hit, including whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit"

Vorachek looked up, say someone at the blueline, and then put his head back down. He continued to skate forward, with his head down and extended out. Kronwall came in for a hit right at Vorachek's chest/midline. Kronwall did not adjust his body to target the head, he did not use an elbow/forearm/hands/stick to target the head, and he did not leave his feet. Vorachek's head was the principal point of contact because of where he put it, i.e. extended at shoulder height, and looking down.

I'm a lifelong wings fan, so there is some inherent bias in my opinion. However, there have been Kronwall hits in the past that I thought were borderline, namely when he dips down just before the hit and explodes upwards... this just isn't one of them.

I thought I'd add the puck daddy critic of the hit: http://sports.yahoo....-020852563.html

huh? Kronwall didn't leave his skates to deliver that hit... his skates barely come off the ground AFTER the hit was delivered.

You're hilariously biased, actually. If you think Voracek puts himself in a vulnerable position here, then you might as well not even have Rule 48 because the mere act of being on the ice must be considered being in a vulnerable position. Also his skates are clearly off the ice as he delivers the hit.

If you can't see the differences in those two hits, then this is a moot discussion.

I can see the difference. The first one shouldn't have been a suspension.

[goblue9280 33]

So skating up ice with your head down is not putting yourself in a vulnerable position? That's your argument?

[hockeymass 11]

So skating up ice with your head down is not putting yourself in a vulnerable position? That's your argument?

My argument is that if you're going to rule that anyone looking anywhere other than straight ahead is putting themselves in a vulnerable position and is fair game to be tagged in the head, regardless of whether or not they're standing at full height, then what is the point of rule 48?

[chippa13 1844]

So skating up ice with your head down is not putting yourself in a vulnerable position? That's your argument?

You are vulnerable to a big hit, not to get smoked in the head with a shoulder. You are misinterpreting the rule. The "vulnerable position" has to do with what the hittee does AFTER the hitter has committed to the hit and cannot avoid the head contact. Kronwall easily could have avoided hitting Voracek in the head.

Skating looking back/down at the puck does not make you fair game for a head shot.

[goblue9280 33]

Chippa13, hockeymass - Fair enough... I get what you are both saying, and I agree the "vulnerable position" rule has more to do with what happens the split second before a hit occurs. My point though is right before the hit occurs, Vorachek puts his head back down after looking up and seeing someone at the blueline.

Regardless, it appears the NHL viewed it as a clean full-body check rather than one in which the head was targeted.

[EBondo 233]

You are vulnerable to a big hit, not to get smoked in the head with a shoulder. You are misinterpreting the rule. The "vulnerable position" has to do with what the hittee does AFTER the hitter has committed to the hit and cannot avoid the head contact. Kronwall easily could have avoided hitting Voracek in the head.

Skating looking back/down at the puck does not make you fair game for a head shot.

Best explanation right there.

[hockeymass 11]

Chippa13, hockeymass - Fair enough... I get what you are both saying, and I agree the "vulnerable position" rule has more to do with what happens the split second before a hit occurs. My point though is right before the hit occurs, Vorachek puts his head back down after looking up and seeing someone at the blueline.

Regardless, it appears the NHL viewed it as a clean full-body check rather than one in which the head was targeted.

My biggest problem is the inconsistency. Shanahan seems to be backing off significantly from his positions earlier in the season.