Blade Alignment to help Pronation when skating

[BlackIce 1]

I have extremely flat feet with basically no arch. I've noticed that when I am in my skates on the ice my right foot pronates badly. The left is O.K. Because of this pronation it is really hard for me to use my outside edge on my right skate. Right now I am using the sidas insoles that come with the Graf 705's. My question is, besides going to SuperFeet which I've had before and does make a difference for pronation, is it necessary to get the blades aligned so that your centre of gravity is over the skate blade. In otherwords for a pronator the blade could be moved 1/4" to the inside. I am wondering if any hockey players who pronate have had this done? Did it work? Is there a reputable hockey store in the GTA(greater Toronto Area) that knows what they are doing and can do this? Help and advice would be appreciated. Here is a website that I found that explains the process.

http://ladyinredcreations.com/Ankles_Down.htm

[Powerfibers 8]

When I brought my son up to Front Row in Thorold (from Buffalo), he was told that he had flat feet. He was fit for Eastons which the fitter said were good for his foot shape and arch. Yellow Suoer Feet in. Then, they proceeded to watch him walk and they removed and adjusted his holders. I could watch even in store as he became much more stable walking up and down the aisles. I believe they adjusted only the right holder (this is eerily similar to what you have described). Anyway, he has had the skates for the last three months, has never skated better, and loves the fit and feel.

I believe the gentleman's name as Armando? I highly recommend him and the shop. I was actually going to bring my skates in and see what he thought, but I did not. We are very happy with the skates and fitting. I also appreciated the fact that he fit us in a $199 junior skate and the price or name brand was never an issue the whole time. I just said give him what fits him best, he plays AA, and he gets a lot of ice time. We could have paid a lot more.

[wrangler 157]

I don't remember which thread, but I swear there was some discussion on this here, maybe a year or so ago, maybe less.

[Jordan 13]

Powerfibers,

You might want to look into orthotics for your son. Yellow superfeet have quite a pronounced arch, while you say that your son is quite flat footed. I am surprised that he doesn't have foot pain in the arch.

[natbat 0]

Start with a foot doctor. I had issues many years before a coach saw my skating issues and told me to see a foot doctor.... orthotics with a custom set of skates took care of me. My 8090's have been baked 2 times and I have bake-able orthodics in them. I currently have a Pair of CCM U 10's that are being worked on. Super feet are a quick fix for low arch...was for me anyways. The Graf bake-able insoles work great as well. I had a pair of skates that we attempted to realign the blade under the foot and it did not work. Was worth a shot. If you pronate, you do not transfer all your power/strength to the ice. I currently started helping coach mites, my job is to watch the kids skate and make suggestions to the parents. If they skate this way to long they will develop bad habits that are hard to correct.

I wanted to add, when you have these kind of problems with your feet,be careful where you purchase your skates. $1,000 skates will not fix your issues. I had a kid that the skate boot was punched out, orthotics were added to the skate, and the blade holders had to be shimmed. I feel sorry for the kid because he will never be able to buy a pair of skates without a few hundred extra bucks. A local store told him $800.00 Vapors would fix his problem....the kid was 8 years old. Luckily, in Metro-Detroit there is a foot doctor that specializes in skate orthotics.

Edited December 3, 2011 by natbat

[Davetronz 109]

There's basically two approaches to this. Modify the boot/blade alignment, or modify the foot within the boot. Call them "schools of thought" if you want.

I've had experience with both. I've had my skates shimmed, wedged, blades moved, aligned, etc. Most recently I've tried correcting the foot problems themselves and received better results without touching the holders or alignment.

I also pronate which has led to really bad pressure spots on the outer sides of both big toes. It's not a severe pronation, but enough to cause issues.

I picked up a set of Sole Thin Sport custom footbeds. http://www.yoursole.com/products/footbeds/thin/sport/

I found they gave me the proper arch support and supported my heel better. This proved to be the biggest lifesaver in reducing pronation and the pressure I was putting on my toes.

I also added two wedges under the insole inside the boot to further elevate and stabilize my heel.

If the blade is mounted crooked or incorrectly on the boot, I say sure, go ahead and properly align it. But I'm not a fan of modifying the holder or boot exterior to solve a problem with the foot. Solve the problem at the cause.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Davetronz

[Powerfibers 8]

Powerfibers,

You might want to look into orthotics for your son. Yellow superfeet have quite a pronounced arch, while you say that your son is quite flat footed. I am surprised that he doesn't have foot pain in the arch.

That is interesting. I never really considered that. I will ask him about if he has soreness. The problem with a ten year old is that sometimes they say they are wearing the best skate ever, and they are talking about look or name brand and not performance. I would definitely look into a different route in footbed if these are not the best ones for his arch type.

I will say though, that he is skating better than ever. From the outside, the mods seem to have made a difference. Thanks for the insight.

[BlackIce 1]

Thanks for all of the input/advice guys. I found a you tube video where they are showing how a skate shop uses shims and wedges to fix pronation. I guess there are two schools of thought as Davetronz said, fix the foot inside with custom foot beds, orthotics, etc. or alter the skate to accommodate the foot. Not saying that I am a weak skater as I've just learned to compensate but I know that my right foot does hamper me at times.

Edited December 4, 2011 by BlackIce

[Vet88 674]

I have the same problem. I tried the orthotic route and after spending a bucketful of money I found it only slightly helped the problem. Then I read the article to the link you provided and decided to alter the blade alignment. One of the issues you have with this approach is deciding when the alignment is correct. I found the answer here was to impose myself on the speed guys. They have had adjustable blades for years, beg borrow buy a pair of speed skates, keep adjusting the blade until you feel the skate is right. Have someone look at you as you skate off the ice after having done some fast(ish) laps or stop starts. If you are skating upright and feel comfortable then you can use the alignment from the speed skates as a guide to the alignment you need on your boot.

The youtube vid is a good one for shims and shims have the advantage of keeping the resale value of your boot (easy to restore to original).

However after having had this discussion with many foot experts, the general consensus I got was that moving the blade is the best solution, shimming next and then orthotics (if they work for you).

[BlackIce 1]

Anyone know of a good skate shop in the greater Toronto Area that can do either blade alignment or shims?

[Jordan 13]

Either Just Hockey or Majer hockey can help you out.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Either Just Hockey or Majer hockey can help you out.

Jordan.....I cant believe you left me out of the loop......feeling badly here! LOL

[stable26 0]

Start with a foot doctor. I had issues many years before a coach saw my skating issues and told me to see a foot doctor.... orthotics with a custom set of skates took care of me. My 8090's have been baked 2 times and I have bake-able orthodics in them. I currently have a Pair of CCM U 10's that are being worked on. Super feet are a quick fix for low arch...was for me anyways. The Graf bake-able insoles work great as well. I had a pair of skates that we attempted to realign the blade under the foot and it did not work. Was worth a shot. If you pronate, you do not transfer all your power/strength to the ice. I currently started helping coach mites, my job is to watch the kids skate and make suggestions to the parents. If they skate this way to long they will develop bad habits that are hard to correct.

I wanted to add, when you have these kind of problems with your feet,be careful where you purchase your skates. $1,000 skates will not fix your issues. I had a kid that the skate boot was punched out, orthotics were added to the skate, and the blade holders had to be shimmed. I feel sorry for the kid because he will never be able to buy a pair of skates without a few hundred extra bucks. A local store told him $800.00 Vapors would fix his problem....the kid was 8 years old. Luckily, in Metro-Detroit there is a foot doctor that specializes in skate orthotics.

As a doc who is also a skate fitter, I couldnt agree more. Going to a pedorthist or "foot Specialist" who doesnt understand the skate can be disappointing. Not all orthotics are created equally. Skates are not manufactured with the intention of having orthotics in them. Orthotics need to be manufactured that dont change the way that the foot sits in the skate. Custom orthotics not made with specific factors in mind can be as much of a negative experience as they can a positive one. With respect to the fitter, a great pair of orthotics in a poorly fitted skate will never realize its full potential

[BlackIce 1]

Great advice in the thread. It's weird I find that if my right skate is laced up super tight it helps with the pronation. However, post skate pain with that foot is extreme. I will try either Majer or Just Hockey.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[natbat 0]

Great advice in the thread. It's weird I find that if my right skate is laced up super tight it helps with the pronation. However, post skate pain with that foot is extreme. I will try either Majer or Just Hockey.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep, I have exactly the same problem...every time I take of my skates, the pain is awful. I found with my CCM U 10's my feet feel much better. The skates fit me better then my 8090's. I also have a low arch and have added a Dr approved orthotic insert.. Now that I have aligned my foot with the boot, I should not have to shim my holders later...only time will tell. It just sucks taking off a set of brand new E pro holders with steel and paying for new LS2 holders and steel....Great combo! The boot and holders feel great together.

[Jordan 13]

Jordan.....I cant believe you left me out of the loop......feeling badly here! LOL

Sorry about that, OTG! Correct, that OTG can help you out. I should have mentioned him. For those that don't know, that OTG runs the hockey portion of National Sports, and has worked with several NHLers on their skates.

He has helped me out several times.

He is also one of the most knowledgeable guys in the business.

As Maxwell Smart would say, "Sorry about that Chief"!!

[pelikano 1]

Anyone know of a good skate shop in the greater Toronto Area that can do either blade alignment or shims?

Have not been there yet. My wife knew about them somehow and mentioned them:

http://www.coachscorner.ca/

[jbss71 1]

My holders are in a 1/8, and still get horrible arch pain, with and without superfeet. Short of a trip to the foot dr. What else can I try?

[Jordan 13]

Could try a custom molded insole such as the Graf/Sidas or Footbalance.

[jbss71 1]

Could try a custom molded insole such as the Graf/Sidas or Footbalance.

I think TSR can do custom superfeet. Might make a trip soon anyway.

[Katzenjammer 1]

I think TSR can do custom superfeet. Might make a trip soon anyway.

Brenden did mine there - excellent job. And a really great footbed.

[jbss71 1]

my problem is i need to keep as much volume as i can. plus i have size 'f' superfeet but the arch is still set back in the wrong place. (my skates are size 9.75)

[Hockeydog 8]

Bringing this thread back to life rather than starting a new one

I have been looking for new skates, and in some models have the same issue with the right foor pronating. In a Supreme which is frankly a liitle big on me it is much less noticable, but in a RBK that fits much better my righ foot pronates much more. Now my right foot is about a pencil width shorter, and lately the skates I have been trying on are fit to my longer foot. My question here is what aspect of boot fit amplifies this issue? Is it purely the arch support of the skate? I used to skate in 5K's with superfeet, Sole footbeds, you name it. Nothing really helped. Is it having a narrower heel in the boot, or a narrower mid- foot? Another question is if a shop shims one side of a skate as in the video above, how does that effect the durability of the holder.

[Hockeydog 8]

Below link to discussion from Genreal Hockey forum:

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php?/topic/59207-blade-alignment-to-help-pronation-when-skating/

I was searching on this subject and found this thread in the General forum. It is an issue that affects me, so I thought it might play well in the Equipment thread.

My questions after reading the above thread were :

What part of skate fit affects or prevents pronation, heel size, arch support, mid-foot width of boot, boot length, or other?

Watching the video of the LHS skate tech shim only one side of the holder, does that have any long term affects on the holders durability?

[Davetronz 109]

It's a combination of factors, but could be based on each person individually. I've had moderate pronation for a while now, but only recently have I actually started to struggle a bit with it in regards to skates, shoes, and foot pain.

For me:

- I have a narrow ankle with not a ton of volume, so I need a skate that has a lot of support and a narrower ankle pocket. I've tried interior and exterior wedges/shims in the heel area, but nothing addressed in the heel area has really helped MY pronation in any way.

- Arch support is the big one for me. I need a fairly significant arch support in any skate I wear. I'm currently obtaining this through Graf SIDAS custom insoles. I used Sole brand insoles in the past and obtained similar results, but the Graf SIDAS is a step above. This has made one of the biggest differences for me.

- Mid-foot width is part of the equation too. If you have extra space it is easier for your foot to roll/pronate if you're already prone to do so. I usually require a boot with narrower mid-foot width too, but still wide enough to fit custom insoles and wider forefoot.

- Boot length for me also comes into play. I pronate more when wearing a half size larger.

- In all of my skates I have to put a wedge/shim between the blade holder and the outsole on the outside side of my foot at the front of each skate. If done properly this doesn't seem to have any effects on the durability of the holder long-term. Depending on the skate I'll also need to put a lift under both sides of the front portion of the holder to reduce the pitch, or change the pitch of the runner.

- Other: Yeah, a few other factors come into play, for me:

I have a lot more problems when I'm wearing a longer shin pad (16"). If I drop down to (15") it seems that everything stays in line better.

Also, boot pitch and cut are a big factor. I found out the hard way that I can't wear Graf skates because the aggressive pitch puts even more pressure on my pronating toes. My best combination for pitch seems to be in the Bauer Supreme line with Tuuk LS2, but I'm also OK in Easton RBII with some blade work.

I need to wear a boot that is a bit higher cut and with a lot of support. Graf G75 didn't do it for me, way too much range of motion at the ankle (designed for more power, better stride).

This also means that I need to be in a boot that is quite stiff, so no bargain basement skates for me. Anything lower models that tend to break down easily don't provide enough support.

When I'm actively running a few times a week (2k-5k) I seem to have less pronation issues. When I go to the chiropractor regularly for adjustments I have less issues too.

Lastly, I've noticed that posture and skating stance makes a huge difference. If I'm not skating properly, meaning proper skating stance, goofing around on the ice, playing a low division where I'm not really caring too much, I pronate more and my feet and ankles start killing me. When I'm keeping all the things I learned in power skating classes as a kid in mind the problem is noticeably better.

These are the things that I've noticed based on a ton of expensive, frustrating, and lengthy trial and error over a period of approximately 1.5 years. Will they work for everyone, well, maybe not. Do they make sense scientifically/medically, I don't know, I'm not a doctor/scientist. I've literally kept a log book of my trial and error and experiences over time. What I tried, what worked, what didn't, and the above are simply my conclusions. Call me nuts, but these skate problems have nearly driven me to hang up the skates over the last little while, so I can definitely appreciate anyone's struggle with pronation or skate fit.