Disagreement With League Director Regarding Forfeit

[seaner7633 2]

Below is a thread of emails between the director of our league and myself. I absolutely do not deny that it quickly turns into a p:ssing contest, and that I probably should have just let it go.

Anyways, my teammates have enjoyed reading this, as have other friends, so I thought I’d share. I’ve removed the names from the emails as well as greetings and salutations, but other than that they are unedited.

Here is the context required to understand the emails.

• I am a captain of a team in our league
  
• We had a game scheduled this past Monday for 10:30PM against TEAM A.
  
• Around 3:30PM on Monday afternoon, League Director calls me and says that TEAM A contacted him, and said they were not going to make it to their game. League Director said it was a forfeit, and that we already had the 2 points. He said he was trying to get TEAM B to come out, so we could at least play a fun practice game, if we wanted. I told him I’d talk to my players and let him know what we wanted to do.
  
• I emailed and txt’d my players, and within 45 minutes, had heard back from 11 of them. Only 2 of them wanted to bother skating, everyone else said no.
  
• At 4:19PM, I emailed League Director to let him know there was not any interest in the practice game.
  
• At 6:28PM, he emailed me asking, “So, your team doesn’t plan on showing up either?” to which I replied moments later, “only two guys showed interest”.
  
• That was the last I heard on the matter from League Director. He emailed the captains the next day (Tuesday), confirming a captain’s meeting scheduled for the following week.
  

Then on Wednesday, the emails started. Here they are, in order and color coded:

On 4/11/12 3:29 PM, League Director wrote:

SO you had no one show up? You realize, TEAM A had one person show up who didnt know about the team calling the game. In essence, you guys got the loss. Yes, I did tell you that TEAM A was not going to show up, but i never told you to tell your team not to. I know it sounds pointless to drive out here for nothing, but its part of the game. I even tried to get a fill in team for you guys to play.

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 3:41 PM, SEANER7633 wrote:

I hope you’re joking.

On 4/11/12 3:41 PM, League Director wrote:

i dont see the funny part

On Apr 11, 2012 4:12 PM, SEANER7633 wrote:

In that case,

You called me and told me that TEAM A told you they couldn’t play. You said the game was a forfeit and that we got the 2 points for the win. Then you told me you talked to TEAM B about playing as a scrimmage.

I relayed this information to my team, and nobody wanted to play. Based on your statement that the game was already a forfeit, I saw no need to force the issue.

I emailed you at 4:19pm on Monday, stating, “There’s not a lot of interest to scrimmage TEAM B. Is it safe to assume that those that do want to play can still come out, and whoever is there will just do pickup kind of game?”

You wrote back at 6:28pm, saying, “So your team doesn't plan on showing up either?”

To which I replied, “Only 2 guys showed interest.”

I don’t see how there was any confusion about whether or not we were showing up for the scrimmage. I even fielded a call from [TEAM B player] around 5:30-6, explaining to him what was going on and that we had nobody interested in coming out at 10:30 for a scrimmage.

I also don’t see how you can award TEAM A the win, after you told me they forfeited the game. True, you didn’t tell us not to come out, but you DID tell me that TEAM A forfeited, and that we had the 2 points. There is no basis for penalizing our team for not showing up. Playing a meaningless scrimmage game is NOT “part of the game”.

Please let me know when you’ve corrected the standings on Pointstreak.

On 4/11/12 4:46 PM, League Director wrote:

When I spoke to you on the phone, I told you that the captain of TEAM A call me and told me that weren't going to have enough players to play a game. Long story short, they would have to forfeit. I called you and relayed that message. Even though they (TEAM A) said they weren't showing up, it didn't mean you guys had the same option. I told you guys that I was going to get another team for you guys to play so you don't lose your ice time. You already complained about the possibility of going two weeks with a game. I was doing my best to make sure you guys didn't go three weeks withour playing. I was under no obligation to do so. I did it as a gesture of good faith to you and your team. But as both you and I both stated, I NEVER told you guys not to show up. As a captain, you should know your team has to be there in order for it to be counted. You mentioned you spoke to [TEAM B player]. Last i check, [TEAM B player] isn't the director. You made no effort to call me. Yes, we exchanged emails. As fate had it, Monday is my day off. I am not readily available to answer all emails. I got back with you as soon as possible.

I have been getting complaints from members from most all the other B league teams who aren't happy that you guys blew off the game and still got credit for the win. TO be honest, I am kind of inclined to agree with them. You and TEAM A did the same thing. I think if anything, you guys should split them. TEAM A had people show up. You guys, not so much. And it wasn't a meaningless scrimmage, it was a scheduled game. I was very careful when I spoke to you on the phone to point out the fact that you guys had to be there. I tired to throw you a bone by getting another team there for you guys to play, that was it.

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 5:09 PM, SEANER7633 wrote:

One simple question: If the game wasn’t a forfeit, why did you tell me it was a forfeit?

When you called me, you said TEAM A called you and “they can’t make the game”. You said nothing about their amount of players. You said the game “was” a forfeit, not “it will be” a forfeit, indicating the game was already ruled a forfeit. Further enforced by you stating that we got the two points.

You never said we had to show up. All you said was that you were trying to get TEAM B to come out and skate, if we wanted to. I told you I’d let me guys know, and let you know, which I did. While I appreciate you trying to find us a team to play, that in no way constitutes a scheduled game.

Our scheduled game was forfeited by the other team. Once a game is ruled a forfeit, it is essentially over. I don’t see how the other teams could be mad at us for not showing up to play a game that was already over. The other teams are complaining because we didn’t show up for a free skate?

It doesn’t matter if TEAM A had people show up, because you had already ruled the game a forfeit.

As a team captain, it is my duty to keep my team informed of our game statuses and league information. In this case, the league director called me and told me our opposing team forfeited the game, and that he was trying to get a team for us to scrimmage if we wanted. That is what I was told (by you), and that is what I communicated to my team.

Your presumption that I should know that we needed to have players show up is incorrect. Had you said TEAM A might not have enough players, and the game might be a forfeit, then yes, my team would have been there in full. However, you told me the game was forfeited. Why would we be obligated to show up?

You fault me for not calling you, however, I ask what the difference is between calling and emailing? I emailed you, and you received my emails, even responding to one around 6:30 that night. It was communicated clearly that we would not be there.

I am really trying to see your side on this, but from every angle it comes down to this simple fact: you told me the game was a forfeit and we had the two points. You simply cannot come back two days later saying we needed to have representation there, and that I should have known that. That is simply not correct.

Again, please let me know when you’ve corrected Pointstreak.

Thanks.

On 4/11/12 5:35 PM, League Director wrote:

A forfeit is determined at the time of the game, not prior. And I shouldnt have to tell you guys you have to show up. How many games have you guys won that you didn't show up to? I told you what TEAM A’s intentions were, and tried to supply a remedy to the empty slot, but I never told you to tell your players NOT to show up. Your team is obligated to show up to games they are scheduled for. IF you guys knew you didnt have to worry about playing, you could have showed up, signed off on your roster sheet, and leave with your two points in hand. You opted to just now show up. Think of it like college. You show up to class and the teacher isn't there, they are out sick. You sign the roll sheet, and kill time till your next class. If you friend calls you and says the teacher is out, that doesn't afford you the chance to skip out all together. You show up, sign off, and leave. If not, you are considered absent, right? This is the point that everyone has brought up. Like i said, i am inclined to agree with them. Also, the difference between email and a phone call is pretty cut and dry. Phone calls go to my cell phone. It gives me the chance to talk to the person right then and there. And email doesent get immediate attention if i am in the middle of doing something. I was in the middle of a family obligation when this all went down, so dropping everything to type out an email response was not in the cards. You are right, i did tell you that TEAM A wasnt going to show up. I told you that if they didnt show (which is what they planned) then you guys got the auto two point. But like i have stated countless times, and both you and i agree on this one, i NEVER told you guys NOT to show up....

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 6:12 PM, SEANER7633 wrote:

You are incorrect. You say, “ I told you that if they didnt show (which is what they planned) then you guys got the auto two point”, but that is NOT what you told me. You told me that TEAM A told you they could not make the game, that they forfeited the game, and that we had the two points. You never said “if”, or “then”. You communicated that the game was definitely a forfeit, not that it might be a forfeit.

If there was a chance TEAM A would show up, then why did you rally TEAM B to come out to play? Getting team B to take team A’s place is a pretty crystal clear indication that team A is not showing up, right?

Is this statement true: [My team is] being given a loss, because they didn’t show up to play a team that said they were not making the game.

Lastly, I just received a screenshot of your txt conversation with one of my players. I’ve attached the image, but will transcribe it below:

(Starts at 5:58PM)

League Director: TEAM A just forfeited their game tonight. Auto 2 points for you guys.

Player: So no game? I just hit the road to come up

Player: Turn around?

League Director: I set up TEAM B to come play and fill the spot. Look at it as a fun practice game....you already got the win.

League Director: Not if you stilm want to play

After seeing this txt conversation, there’s really nothing more to say, other than please let me know once you’ve corrected the standings on Pointstreak.

Thanks.

ON Wed, April 11, 2012 6:19 PM, League Director wrote:

And you notice that i DIDN'T tell [your player] to NOT show up, right? My indication to [player] was that a hockey game was still going to take place, right? I think that proves my point right there. You get the two points if you show up. That is the way it has been, that is the way it will always be.

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 8:39 PM, SEANER7633 wrote:

The words you used in your message to [player] were "fun practice game". Other words used include: "Auto 2 points for you guys" and "you already got the win".

If we already had the win, how could we lose it?

If we were supposed to show up, why did you txt [player] in the first place?

I understand that your point is that you did not tell us not to show up. That is correct. You did not tell us to not show up. You also did not tell us that we had to show up. You said we could play TEAM B if we want. Well, we didn't want to, so we didn't. And somehow that means TEAM A’s forfeiture of their game becomes null, and instead we're charged with a forfeit.

Please explain that without deferring to things you didn't say.

Please let me know which rule states that in the event of a team forfeiting their game, that the opposing team must still show up. I've looked at the [league] rules, the USA Hockey rule book, and the USA Hockey Rules case book, and there is no such mention of any rule. The closest I saw was that a team needs a minimum of 5 skaters otherwise it's a forfeit. Did TEAM A have 5 or more skaters show up?

In this case, TEAM A forfeited their 10:30 game sometime in the afternoon. You called me around 3:30PM, to tell me TEAM A forfeited their game. It wasn’t a last second thing. It wasn't a case where no one knew their were forfeiting. In a situation like that, players would need to be present. But what happened Monday was far from that. We knew 7 hours in advance that TEAM A was not going to be playing their game, that they forfeited, and that we had an automatic 2 points. Why would we need to still show up? For a ceremonial drop of the puck? Would you really have had us put on all our gear, go on the ice, do the faceoff and then leave? That is absurd.

Please let me know when you've corrected the standings on Pointstreak.

Thanks.

On 4/12/12 11:37 AM, League Director wrote:

I feel like we are going in circles. We have answered the same questions for a full day now. If you still have questions, please thumb through the emails prior to this one. I have answered all of these questions more then once. And to address the point you made about a minimum of 5 players needing to be there in order to constitute a viable team to compete.....how many did you have show up? Five? None? Because TEAM A had one. And I texted [player] as a friend, not as a director. I know [player] drives more then an hour to make the games. He contacted me earlier in the week about the game. He was inquiring why you guys had to play TEAM A again. I told him it worked out perfectly since you and TEAM B both had to play them for the last game of your regular season. Especially since you guys were dueling for 1st place. I sent him a text the day of the game to give him a heads up about the two points. I figured it would make his drive easier, but I never told him to turn around. Matter of fact, like i stated before, i told him hockey was still going to take place. Like I said before, a forfeit can not be awarded until the time of the game, not before it.

I need more time to think about this. I will adjust Pointstreak when I am ready to do so.

On Wed, Apr 12, 2012 at 12:57 PM, SEANER7633 wrote:

We are going in circles, because you are refusing to admit you are wrong, and are failing to provide acceptable logic for your decision. I do not accept the fact that you “did not tell us to not show up” as a proper justification for your decision. I asked you to show me the rule stating in the case of a forfeit, the team not forfeiting is required to show up, but you have yet to do so. I looked, and found no such rule. You have not answered many of my questions (see list below).

The fact of the matter is that you told me that TEAM forfeited the game, NOT that they will be forfeiting the game. You told me we had the two points, NOT that we will have the two points. You communicated in the past tense, which implies that the decision is made. If that wasn’t what you meant, then that is YOUR fault for not communicating the situation accurately. You are trying to justify this by stating that you never told us not to show up, when that really has nothing to do with what you actually did tell us.

Also, the “fun practice game” against TEAM B has absolutely no bearing on TEAM A’s forfeiture of the game. What if TEAM B weren’t able to play? Would you still have required us to show up?

I have thumbed through the emails, and here are some questions I asked that you have not answered (context added in brackets). Please answer all these questions:

1. “If the game wasn’t a forfeit, why did you tell me it was a forfeit?”
   
2. “[if the game was forfeited as of 3:30pm] Why would we be obligated to show up?”
   
3. “[if the game wasn’t yet a forfeit,] why did you rally TEAM B to come out to play?”
   
4. “Is this statement true: [My team is] being given a loss, because they didn’t show up to play a team that said they were not making the game.”
   
5. “[in your txt to [player], you stated ‘you already got the win’] If we already had the win, how could we lose it?”
   
6. “Please let me know which rule states that in the event of a team forfeiting their game, that the opposing team must still show up.”
   

I’m sorry, but you simply cannot make a case for giving us a loss. As far as I can see, there is no rule in the [league] or USA Hockey that says we were required to show up for game that was forfeited. There is absolutely no basis whatsoever for penalizing our team.

Please let me know when you’ve corrected the standings on Pointstreak.

Thanks.

END OF EMAILS---

And that’s where we currently stand. While waiting to hear back, I’ve sent the email thread to some people trying to see the league director’s side of the argument. If he’s this adamant about it, then there must be something to it. I sent the thread to the former director, a fellow captain in a different league, and a couple refs. I even sent it to another ref, who basically hates our team, figuring if anyone would find a way to prove me wrong, it’d be him. All of them have agreed with my position on the matter. Although the ref that hates us added that the game could be ruled No Contest.

I really hate that I allowed myself to get sucked in. It’s not the loss of points that bothered me (we’re a 7-team league and everyone makes the playoffs). It was the lack of logic and reasoning, and the accusation that we blew off the game. Even still I probably should have just saved my (digital) breath.

[chk hrd 164]

The director is just being a wanker. How can he say that since team A had one player showed up they got the win. So by that logic if you had 2 show up it would have been your win.....BS! He is in the wrong but guys like that won't admit it. Short of getting him removed you wont be able to win this one. Tell him you checked with your players and 3 showed up and were in the parking lot but didn't dress because there was no team to play.

[Les213 1]

Great read. Your convener is being a total moron. He also makes some very basic logical reasoning errors. He wouldn't do very well on the LSAT.

[IPv6Freely 2092]

Sounds like a real douchenozzle. I couldn't even make it through the whole thing.

I actually had a similar experience with the dean in my college... long story short, he told me I wasnt graduating. 3+ years of emails, including one back and forth to the college president, and I eventually got my worthless piece of paper.

[Captain Sane 2]

Seems like the director was in the wrong, I was thinking maybe you misunderstood him on the phone initially, but the text he sent indicates he definitely called it a forfeit then. If I were you I would see if the game could maybe be made-up, and maybe consider the game a wash if he's really unwilling to compromise, but take whatever solace you can in the fact that you are in the right here

[Stewie 721]

seems like to me that he already conceded you guys the win, and since he scheduled another team why did it even matter how many people from team A showed up? either way, not sure why you guys didnt just show up to play some hockey wether it counted or not, but maybe thats just me =)

[wrangler 157]

I'm wondering if he had the authority to declare a forfeit under the league rules, rather than waiting to see who showed up, and making the call at game time. I wouldn't be surprised if Team A could still show up with enough guys to play, and not forfeit, no matter what he said.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if Team A could forfeit in advance by calling and stating "we forfeit". If they did that, I'd say that's dispositive.

Your points make sense. I'd say that Team A forfeited, or that you still have to play them because the league director screwed up the process.

[Harv 86]

I'm siding with you.

He's clearly in the wrong here.

[Lee-Bro 1]

Are you friendly with Team A's captain? Can you call him and find out what he specifically told the Director and what he was told in return?

[tareatingrat 4]

I'm amazed you were that composed for that long.

I wouldn't be talking to him anymore. I'd be talking to his boss. There's always somebody higher up.

If, somehow, he's at the top of the food chain, I'd tell him he's wrong, finish my season, and never go back there again.

[Chadd 916]

You never win fights with people in positions of authority. Even if you're right and are eventually proven to be so, you will lose in the end. I'm not saying that you shouldn't fight him, just that any victory will be pyrrhic.

That said, I would agree with your position. Your only real shot is to get all of the other captains to agree with you and perhaps he will give in at that point.

[Stoop 1]

You have to read these disagreement stories with a grain of salt, but in this case, that text and his description of it are completely illogical and supports your whole story. He isn't make sense at all. His class analogy is nonsense.

I can see how you'd be pretty mad about it, I would be. But as long as you don't lose ice time - no tangible loss.

[ktang 34]

Neither team had enough players present for the game (7 players minimum?), so if anything both teams should have forfeit. 0 points for both teams. Perhaps this could be a compromise for the league director.

[hunt3rsean 44]

According to the emails you've posted....the director is in the wrong. He made a promise of a win by forfeit and awarded your team 2 pts. Now, depending on how your league rules are he may or may not have been actually able to provide that promise until actual gametime. He may also be upset that he went out of his way to try and find your team another team to play/scrimmage against since the ice time was technically yours already. On the other hand....the ice time was already paid for (by you and Team A) and both of you chose not to use the ice team. So....in the end does it matter? Probably not. Now it's turned into a pissing contest because you're in the right and he's the director (higher authority over you).

My $.02 is to find compromise if you like the league and facility. Yes, you may lose 1 or 2 points, but everyone makes playoffs anyways (my league is the same). I agree with you that it's a matter of principle at this point and yes...deep down...standings matter to us all. Perhaps he'd even be willing to reschedule your game due to miscommunication? Sometimes that can work as many leagues end up having late night ice times anyways.

[tareatingrat 4]

I would never assume that the director is in a position of authority.

If anything, as you're paying his salary, I'd say he should stop whining about something that absolutely doesn't matter. You get the two points, done. Who cares if the ice sits empty? It's paid for. Less maintenance on the Zamboni.

I'm tired of having to stroke someone's ego even when they're clearly wrong.

[splitbtw 2]

Isn't the ice time payed for regardless by league fees? If so, it should just be a pickup game no matter who shows up at that point. His texts don't help his case at all.

[Apes44 7]

Reading this I thought you must play in our league! the people down at our rink are jsut like that! Even though we probably all agree director is in the wrong, sadly its a battle you cant win due to him being the ultimate authority of the league.

Really cheese him off and tell him your team wont make it, then all show up and be like we get the 2 points now!

[phomp 0]

Wait, did they give the 2 points to the team that started this whole mess in the first place? If so, the logic of that alone boggles my mind.

I do not know the rules of your league but based on what I am reading I have to side with you here.

If, and a big if, it is in the rules that a forefit has to be deemed at the start time of a game then I could see the arguement for the game to be deemed a No Contest. That being said, it would be the league directors job to notify you that you must show up to collect the 2 points per league rules. Arranging a fun practice game with another team is a generous gesture but does not certainly outline that you have to show (given the fact it is no longer a official game).

You told him you and your team would not make it because they did not feel like playing a scrimiage. To be frank, your team did not pay the league to play scrimmages and you are under no obiligation to do so. You let him know that your team was able to field a team for a league game, the other team forefitted. End of story.

By his rules, you could forefit a game early in the day and then when most of the other team does not show up - you show up with most of your team and now what? Game on? Hardly fair...

To be honest, it sounds like he got that other team to come play you guys without confirming you would have players there (after the original team forefitted) and that team was pissed because you guys didnt show up and now the league director has to cover his own ass by putting the blame on you. It is a nice thought and gesture to try to arrange a game for you guys but it should be offered and confirmed first. It sounds like he was to quick to jump the gun, made a mistake and does not want to take fault for having that other team show up for no reason.

Where I play, if a team forefits earlier in the day they tell us we get the 2 points. We do not have to send anyone and the game is cancelled. The ice time is open for both teams if they can send any players. No matter who comes out the result is the same. This is how it should be..

If it happens at game time, one team must field a team or show they have enough players to get the points by the start of the game. If both teams do not have enough then both get a loss.

One time about 10 mins before the game the other team forefitted to the league before start time which meant we got the 2 points. If they waited to the start of the game, they would have given us a loss to because we ended up being short. But since they conceeded without checking the result was done!

If finishing first does not matter then it is not a big deal but in our league all the first place teams get a tournament, to lose it to something like that would be crazy.

I can not reasonably put an arguement together that you should not get the points and have not seen one here... (unless there is same crazy rule in your rules, but your league director would have responded with that instantly because it would win him the arguement right away - so I can only assume said crazy rule does not exist).

[jdksaves 56]

It seems like he was trying to be curtious to you and your team and let you know that the other team wasn't going to be able to field a team for a late game. As soon as he corresponded with you is when he gave you the option to not show up and still get the points. If it was me and I was told the other team forfeits and it was a 10:30 game I wouldn't have went. I would have been pissed if I would have showed up to a 10:30 game and the other team wasn't there and this D-bag knew they weren't coming and didn't give the option to not show up. No one in their right mind would drive to the rink to show up get the 2 points and screw around at 10:30. To conclude, siding with you

[goblue9280 33]

The director is obviously in the wrong, and seems to be pissed off at you and your team for some reason. Only thing I can think is that the director (and maybe some of the other teams), were pissed that you guys weren't willing to come play an exhibition when he was able to line up a team.

[Doctor Hook 0]

Awright, dying to know where this league is, so I know to never play in it.

[seaner7633 2]

Hey everyone. Thanks for the replies and suggestions. Following the last email I sent, I just sat tight, giving the director some space to think it over. He responded today, and I wanted to share the results:

League Director writes:

I have reached my decision. I am going to take sharp end of the stick here on this one. I am willing to take the blame because when I spoke to you on the phone, it sounded like I already gave you guys the victory. That was a miss communication on my end. In the future, it will be handled differently.

I also want to point out that I was not trying to stiff you out of your points. Matter of fact, if you had looked at Pointstreak, you guys had the two points for the win the entire time. I was just looking into it on behalf of the other captains in the league. Same thing i would have done if you would have asked me. I value the input of all my captains. It helps keep the league fair. I always looked to you as one of the better established captains who ran a tight ship. I do have to admit, i was kind of surprised at the tone of some of those emails. I was not looking for a fight, just some answers. Sean, this is my second season doing this. It is my goal to have a great relationship with ALL my captains. If you have an issue with something i am doing, or a lingering issues from before my time, then i would love to speak with you about it. My phone is always on, and i DO my best to get back to everyone when i am not around. Please dont be afraid to call me.

If you have any issues or comments, please let me know.

[wrangler 157]

Gotta respect the tone of that, and it sounds like he's trying to do the right thing. If I didn't know this came from the same guy as the other stuff, I would not have guessed it.

[Grinder 2]

Hats off to any guy with the stones to step up when he's made a mistake. Second year in the position, you're still learning a lot about the job.

[bar down 1]

id send an email thanking the guy thats top class right there