Maximum Edge vs. Pro Skate-Balance

[bones71 1]

I am looking at profiling/contouring programs for my store and I'm interested in hearing from the MSH experts and patrons about their thoughts on the systems we are considering - Maximum Edge and Pro Skate-Balance by Wally Tatomir. I am familiar with ME but with extremely high volumes - sometimes 1000+ pairs per week - and a very competitive market I want to get some real world feedback to be sure whether a system like PSB may be a better fit. Creators of both systems make substantial "claims" but I am more interested in providing the best system for a very loyal customer base. Info about any other worthwhile systems would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

I guess it depends on how much time you want to put into selling either method?

[bones71 1]

@oldtrainerguy - we will put every resource we can towards our best option. I guess I am asking whether there is a fundamental difference or advantage inherent to either. We are simply looking for a formal, recognizable "brand" to some degree. ME has had a hit and miss reputation in my area - likely due to the fact that any system or program is only as good as the guy/girl behind the wheel, and I have heard mixed opinions of Wally T. although the system he promotes seems fine. Detailed responses are welcome...

[Chadd 916]

Institute your own process and make sure it is followed every time by every sharpener. Neither of those will do any good if you aren't putting out good finished product. You've already said the ME brand is hit or miss in your area, and the price is pretty high for a spotty rep that may hurt as much as it helps.

[GiancarloSFL 15]

Jimmy here has a wealth of knowledge on sharpening. Like Chadd said your own "system" iv'e used jimmy in the past and he has never let me down.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

I say neither. It's a waste of money and bad sharpenings will ruin your rep; the difference is you would've paid thousands for a bad rep.

[All Flash 49]

I know what contouring and profiling is I think.... but what is ME & PSB compared to doing it on regular contouring bars?

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

PSB is a CAG. Methodology makes sense but then again, you can still do that by a standard contour and then measure the ends and do it freehand. The only difference is you don't get to press a button and have the machine do it.

M-E is a sharpening method as well as a profiling method.

The truth is, you can run a successful business without either of those. You answered your question in your first reply.

[Chadd 916]

If all else fails, we can charge you a few thousand dollars and certify you in our method.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

The only issue by doing your own method is you need to purchase a profiling system. Now you can do as JR suggested and measure the boot as stated on Wally's page and do your own settings although he already tells you what works best right on the page for the NHL guys. That being said you have to buy a CAG profilier. Now if you cost that out over a few years it may be just fine. With the ME method you pay on a yearly basis for the amount of players in your area. I can not do ME because Just Hockey is to close and it would be silly for me as I am in the heart of hockey in Toronto and my fee would be through the roof as a start up business. I have to rely on what I know from both systems use what I can legally and do the best possible job on every pair. In the short time I have been open on my own I am already having new clients that won't now go anywhere else which is kinda cool. And of course I have some of my regular older clients.

It will take a while for me I am sure but if you already have cliental as your doing the volume your doing to improve your actual sharpening and profiling using either method you will need to hire more people as either method will slow you down so to speak. It will benefit your customers and they will notice a difference on your high end clients but they will have to be able to understand your going to improve your service and an improved service may take a slight bit longer.

Feel free to PM after running 18 stores for 8 years I totally get your dilema!

[bones71 1]

Thanks OTG28. I have been open for almost 9 years and for a shop that does the volumes we do we couldn't maintain those numbers if we weren't doing a good job the vast majority of the time. The idea of having the CAG is simply to free up a set of hands to either sharpen or serve floor customers. I do all of the profiling now and my thoughts are that if we take the best from a "Marketable Brand" we can use that brand as a broader marketing/advertising push, raising the profile of my store as opposed to constantly having people wait/ask for my service. My staff are excellent and more than capable of handling either system but we are planning to be a bigger operation and a formalized system may be a good fit with that growth. I will PM you and share some thoughts/ideas. Thanks for the feedback boys.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

I don't think that's a good idea. If you're been doing a good job and your reputation is good, there's no reason to change. Your reputation for quality work is your best marketing strategy.

Like you said with M-E, it was hit or miss in that area. Some of the customers in your area already have a stigma in regards to it.

In short, I don't think you'd benefit from either of them if customers are satisfied with what you're currently doing. It's a negligible difference - if at all, and not worth the money, in my opinion.

[EvilPepe 24]

To expand on what JR is saying, you'll probably have less control over your image and the perception of your work by pushing these other systems. At first thought it might make sense as a marketing tool, but you are tying yourself to that tool, and the reputation of everyone else that uses it. It also clouds the subject of what constitutes a "good skate sharpening" (or profiling) in the minds of your customers as they become aware of these different "methods" and start to think that there is a real fundamental difference. If you are already doing good work and have a solid reputation, you should be pumping your own tires and not someone else's.

I think where the ME name really takes a hit is with the garage sharpeners who paid the money, charge an outrageous amount of money for the work, and spin some real voodoo tales about the "secret process"....

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

Well said.

[thawu 5]

My local shop that I just started going to just opened up a couple months ago and is pushing M-E. I think he heard of it from Just Hockey and decided to buy the rights to my area. But I've never heard of it until now and he was basically pushing the idea that 29 out of 30 NHL teams use it (is this true?) and showed me some sample "thank you" letters that the NHL equipment managers sent to the M-E founder.

He does all of the sharpenings and profiles and normally asks us to drop off skates overnight because it seems to take a while (sounded like 45min. to an hour). But seems like everyone in our area who has tried the M-E sharpen only go to his shop now. Although, it could also be because he's at least very consistent and provides great service. I guess it beats the sharpenings from high school kids working part-time at the local big box store.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

But I've never heard of it until now and he was basically pushing the idea that 29 out of 30 NHL teams use it (is this true?) and showed me some sample "thank you" letters that the NHL equipment managers sent to the M-E founder.

No.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

No.

I disagree JR.

To expand on what JR is saying, you'll probably have less control over your image and the perception of your work by pushing these other systems. At first thought it might make sense as a marketing tool, but you are tying yourself to that tool, and the reputation of everyone else that uses it. It also clouds the subject of what constitutes a "good skate sharpening" (or profiling) in the minds of your customers as they become aware of these different "methods" and start to think that there is a real fundamental difference. If you are already doing good work and have a solid reputation, you should be pumping your own tires and not someone else's.

I think where the ME name really takes a hit is with the garage sharpeners who paid the money, charge an outrageous amount of money for the work, and spin some real voodoo tales about the "secret process"....

I disagree, Your image is what you make of it. Your either good or your bad. Taking the course at the least will only make you more knowledgeable if not a better sharpener. If after the course you decide not to be a member then your out very little in comparison and then you can fully decide on what way to go. Used CAG machine Wally or Bob.

Thats my suggestion.

However to add to this what system for profiling are you using at the moment? I guess that will maybe help me give a better suggestion.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

I disagree JR.

I disagree, Your image is what you make of it. Your either good or your bad. Taking the course at the least will only make you more knowledgeable if not a better sharpener.

Bad/mediocre sharpeners buying a program to tell people that they are good because some NHL EQMs (sorry, it isn't 29/30 EQMs, disagree all you want) use the same method. The high majority of people I've seen use the method fall in that category.

That's like a bad player wearing pro stock equipment trying to make the same argument.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

But the person asking is not a bad sharpener I do not disagree that a "Bad/mediocre sharpeners buying a program to tell people that they are good because some NHL EQMs". But the person asking would like to know if either will enhance their business. I say yes.

I do not see how gaining more experience will hurt in the least. You dont have to buy the system to take the course.

Its kinda like myself. you guys mostly have gone to school for business or taken it at some point I have not. So I am going to take courses and go to seminars to get better. I will also if time and money permits go back and see Bob for an update on his course to learn what ever new things are out there.

I think I am a pretty good sharpener...........but I would like to make my shop the best in Toronto. Can I for sharpening??? Maybe.........if I update myself on an ongoing basis I am willing to bet I can.

[EvilPepe 24]

As far as I can tell from Bones' concern ("We are simply looking for a formal, recognizable "brand" to some degree.") What I use isn't relevant (but I have Blademaster bars if that is what you mean).

Truth be told, I don't know what you are disagreeing with. When you brand yourself, you have to take on the positive and the negative aspects of that brand. Like you said - your image is what you make of it. So if he is primarily concerned about his image and a way to better market his place, he doesn't have to go this route (especially if he is already doing it right, and has his people trained likewise). Be your own brand.

Just incase there is confusion on this - I'm not against training like that for people who will benefit in terms of becoming better sharpeners. But just as anything else, equal training does not result in equal ability. If it did, I'd have someone sharpening my skates for ME.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

And just a question for all those saying the systems aren't worth it.

Have any taken either course?

And I mean gone to Windsor or gone to wherever Wally has his course? Not just talked to the guys at a trade show.

As far as I can tell from Bones' concern ("We are simply looking for a formal, recognizable "brand" to some degree.") What I use isn't relevant (but I have Blademaster bars if that is what you mean).

Truth be told, I don't know what you are disagreeing with. When you brand yourself, you have to take on the positive and the negative aspects of that brand. Like you said - your image is what you make of it. So if he is primarily concerned about his image and a way to better market his place, he doesn't have to go this route (especially if he is already doing it right, and has his people trained likewise). Be your own brand.

Just incase there is confusion on this - I'm not against training like that for people who will benefit in terms of becoming better sharpeners. But just as anything else, equal training does not result in equal ability. If it did, I'd have someone sharpening my skates for ME.

Ok using Just Hockey as an example. Are they branded as a Maximum Edge Pro Shop?? No they are Just Hockey that uses the process. Maybe There was some confusion.

As for the new Blademaster CRM6 system.......LOVE IT. If I had not do ME and had the CRM6 available I would use that over anything else.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

Course was only available to equipment managers. Any retailers or shop owners have to pay for the course.

Did I take the course? No.

Do I know the method? Yes.

To your JH example (which isn't a good example because they have been using ME for quite a long time)

http://justhockeytoronto.com/services.php

They are using M-E on that page to market their sharpening business. It is used to validate their reputation.

[EvilPepe 24]

And just a question for all those saying the systems aren't worth it.

Have any taken either course?

And I mean gone to Windsor or gone to wherever Wally has his course? Not just talked to the guys at a trade show.

For awhile Wally and I were getting our paychecks from the same company. He was one of the two people who I had my initial training with. The other was someone who had been in the business for over 20 years, and had recently done the ME class. He had mixed things to say about it. I also more less apprenticed under a current NHL equipment manager.

Bottom line - I didn't become a good skate sharpener until I stopped worrying about each of the little "tricks" that they all used and thought for myself. Now I make sure I do right by everyone who I deal with, and take the time to explain what I do, and the reason I do it. This has done more for my reputation as a sharpener (and fitter and fixer in general) than anything else could possibly do.

Also, I give away candy at the counter. It helps.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

I guess I need to buy some candy then.......

[raganblink 82]

I'm agreeing with JR on this one - Take the course and try to find ways to improve yourself as a sharpener - but I would not market myself with them.

Be yourself and show your area that YOU are the best, not YOU using M-E. Because all it will take is another LHS to do the same thing, say they are LHS using M-E, and you'll lose people because they think it'll be the same thing. And if they suck at it, then they are hurting the M-E name, which then hurts you b/c you associate with it as well, so you'll lose customers who never even gave you a chance because someone else messed it up.