Supplemental Discpline 2013-14

[Chadd 916]

If you're on Twitter, check out #AskNeal. It's hilarious, unless you're a Pens fan.

There's a nice summary here:

http://www.crossingbroad.com/2014/03/the-penguins-askneal-twitter-hashtag-went-horribly-wrong.html

[215BroadStBullies610 435]

And that's why being famous and having a twitter account can be bad news bears ha. As Mrs. Reimer.

[Chadd 916]

25 years ago the NHL had a tougher standard on cheap shots than they do now.

''Although Sandstrom had done nothing apparent to provoke Brown, the Flyers' player came from behind and moved several feet to reach Sandstrom before delivering the blow,'' O'Neill said. ''He had time to consider his actions.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/03/sports/flyers-brown-suspended-for-15-games.html

[Trooper 8]

If you're on Twitter, check out #AskNeal. It's hilarious, unless you're a Pens fan.

Not really, the Mt. Rushmore tweet had me laughing out loud. I have yet to hear much pro Neal sentiment as far as his behavior, if any, here in Pittsburgh.

[Chadd 916]

Gotta love Orpik launching himself into Toews, trying to take his head off. No penalty, probably not even a review from the league. The dirtiest team in the league strikes again.

[IPv6Freely 2094]

I'm actually okay with that hit.

[Trooper 8]

Clean hit, not sure how even the Penguins haters can make much of a case otherwise.

[psh 25]

I saw that hit a few times last night and thought it was clean, too. Milbury was sure up in arms about it, though.

It's probably fair to call me a Hawks and Toews fan, so I hope he's good to go soon. If it's a separated shoulder, which is what it looked like initially, it's hard to know how long he'll be out. It will be interesting to see how the Hawks play without Toews and Kane.

[Trooper 8]

I saw that hit a few times last night and thought it was clean, too. Milbury was sure up in arms about it, though.

It's probably fair to call me a Hawks and Toews fan, so I hope he's good to go soon. If it's a separated shoulder, which is what it looked like initially, it's hard to know how long he'll be out. It will be interesting to see how the Hawks play without Toews and Kane.

Well, if Mike Milbury was upset about it, I'll have to reconsider! ;) But that mouthbreather is worthy of his own thread, unless we could include supplemental discipline for lack of critical thinking skills in bounds for this one :D

[Chadd 916]

Hard to call Milbury a mouthbreather on this issue, he's actually talking about player safety. Yes, the initial point of contact makes the contact itself legal, the issue is with the mentality that you have to destroy guys. NHL rule 21 states:

A match penalty shall be imposed on any player who deliberately attempts to injure or who deliberately injures an opponent in any manner.

Explain to me how that hit is anything other than an attempt to injure. Orpik did everything he could to deliver a hit that would do as much damage as possible and succeeded in injuring Toews. If Orpik skates through Toews, he delivers a hard hit and everyone goes on with the game. Instead, Orpik lowers his body and explodes up into Toews in an attempt to do as much damage as possible. The extra effort to deliver that kind of hit is absolutely proof of his intent as there is no other reason for that kind of action.

I'm not saying that Orpik is the only one or the Pens are the only team that does things like that. In fact, I have been against those hits for a long time. By definition, it's charging.

A minor or major penalty shall be imposed on a player who skates or jumps into, or charges an opponent in any manner.

If you watch the replays, it is not the impact that takes Orpik off his feet. He lowers his body and then explodes up into Toews. That meets the textbook definition of "jumps into". That is not the way it is called anymore, unfortunately, but that is not always how people have delivered body checks in the NHL. Hits like that were routinely called for charging not all that long ago.

[Trooper 8]

Milbury is a mouthbreather based upon a long history of being a jackass, not on this issue alone.

The bar is now very low apparently on what arbitrary line constitutes intent to injure. The intent to injure and the intent to dissuade the opposing team from going to certain areas of the ice or engage for pucks are two different things. There is no "absolute proof" of anything.

He doesn't leave his feet prior to the hit, he glides from the dot or farther, he does lower his body and extend into him just like a million others. I disagree that it constitues a textbook definition of "jumps into". That phrase to me mean you leave your feet before making contact. There is no jump without leaving your feet, and feet coming off the ground as a result of the contact does not by any definition constitute a jump.

[chippa13 1844]

Quick, find the Pens fan in this thread.

All I know is Orpik's name has been coming up a lot in these discussions about questionable hits. Having just seen the replay, there is no doubt in my mind that Orpik is jumping into the hit. His feet were off the ice as he was making impact and not as a result of the impact.

[Trooper 8]

Quick, find the Pens fan in this thread.

All I know is Orpik's name has been coming up a lot in these discussions about questionable hits. Having just seen the replay, there is no doubt in my mind that Orpik is jumping into the hit. His feet were off the ice as he was making impact and not as a result of the impact.

Yawn, because I am a Pens fan I cannot have an objective analysis of this hit? Try harder. Show me where in the hit he is off his feet before contact instead of throwing childish barbs.

[chippa13 1844]

First, learn how to take a joke. However, there is truth that our interpretations of events are often colored by our allegiances. Second, I already explained that his feet did not leave the ice as a result of contact but that they were off the ice at the moment of contact. That, as Chadd explained, is textbook jumping into the hit.

[Trooper 8]

First, learn how to take a joke. However, there is truth that our interpretations of events are often colored by our allegiances. Second, I already explained that his feet did not leave the ice as a result of contact but that they were off the ice at the moment of contact. That, as Chadd explained, is textbook jumping into the hit.

I know what you explained, but I just watched it a few times and his feet are on the ice when he makes contact. Interpretations are oftentimes colored by allegiances, as are interpretations influenced by already adopted worldviews such as the Pens are dirty, etc. Then everything is viewed through those glasses.

This is what I see, at the moment of contact his skates appear to be on the ice:

[Chadd 916]

I know what you explained, but I just watched it a few times and his feet are on the ice when he makes contact. Interpretations are oftentimes colored by allegiances, as are interpretations influenced by already adopted worldviews such as the Pens are dirty, etc. Then everything is viewed through those glasses.

This is what I see, at the moment of contact his skates appear to be on the ice:

As you can see his knees are bent and body is low, I agree that is feet are on the ice at impact and I have never said otherwise. The previous few frames of video, along with the next few frames would show that he lowered his center of gravity then launched up and into Toews at the time of contact. There is no reason to do that in this (or just about any other) situation, unless you are trying to injure the other guy.The image also shows that the play happened in an extremely dangerous place, only a few feet out from the boards. Trying (and succeeding in this case) to blow someone up in that position is incredibly dangerous and often results in the player being thrown dangerously/violently into the boards. On top of that, it was a bad defensive play (tactically speaking) as the puck was long gone by the time Orpik got there.

[chk hrd 164]

One of things that happens if if the player receiving the check is already low then the player delivering the check has to get low to do it. The problem is it's almost impossible to not straighten your legs from that position to maintain balance. The players always "explode" up when finishing the check, some to the point where they leave the ice. The other thing is it causes head shots. You don't have to hurt someone to seperate them from the puck. Orpik could have went in slower and had the same results. The issue I had was where Toews is in relation to the boards. Regardless if your facing them or have your back to them he was in that danger zone of 2 1/2-4 feet that nothing ever good happens in when your hit.

[Chadd 916]

One of things that happens if if the player receiving the check is already low then the player delivering the check has to get low to do it. The problem is it's almost impossible to not straighten your legs from that position to maintain balance. The players always "explode" up when finishing the check, some to the point where they leave the ice. The other thing is it causes head shots. You don't have to hurt someone to seperate them from the puck. Orpik could have went in slower and had the same results. The issue I had was where Toews is in relation to the boards. Regardless if your facing them or have your back to them he was in that danger zone of 2 1/2-4 feet that nothing ever good happens in when your hit.

This was not a case of a player coming off the ice because of the impact. I agree that what you describe can happen but in many more cases, players explode up and through the other guy when delivering a hit in order to inflict great pain/injury.

[chk hrd 164]

I agree, I also think that if Toews was not as far from the boards as he was he would have been able to take the hit better. I think the bottom line is that it was an injury that didn't have to happen if Orpik would have used better judgement.(for lack of a better word). It was a predatory hit that doesn't belong in the game. The lack of respect by players is the reason I think enforcers are needed. If someone has to answer to someone seriously later and not just in a little scrum afterwards it gives them some second thought. Now you can hit with intent and get away with it, maybe suffer a few game suspension but that doesn't seem to stop guys. I am not saying bring back the old days of the Probert and Twist but they didn't seem to have this bad of a problem back then.

While I'm going on...I hate when guys get jumped for making a clean hit...bugs the crap out of me.

[chippa13 1844]

The enforcer argument is a thing for dinosaurs. Long gone are the days when a player would feel obligated to answer the bell. Believe me, today's NHL players don't give enforcers a second thought before throwing a predatory/questionable hit. They know that they can just skate away from a challenge.

Matt Cooke didn't get a good portion of stupid out of his game because he feared enforcers. He did it because his coach and GM let him know that he wouldn't have a job if he kept it up.

[Chadd 916]

I agree, I also think that if Toews was not as far from the boards as he was he would have been able to take the hit better. I think the bottom line is that it was an injury that didn't have to happen if Orpik would have used better judgement.(for lack of a better word). It was a predatory hit that doesn't belong in the game. The lack of respect by players is the reason I think enforcers are needed. If someone has to answer to someone seriously later and not just in a little scrum afterwards it gives them some second thought. Now you can hit with intent and get away with it, maybe suffer a few game suspension but that doesn't seem to stop guys. I am not saying bring back the old days of the Probert and Twist but they didn't seem to have this bad of a problem back then.

While I'm going on...I hate when guys get jumped for making a clean hit...bugs the crap out of me.

What would an enforcer do to a guy like Orpik that never fights after his hits? The Pens would get a 5 minute powerplay when he got jumped and that wouldn't discourage him in any way. It has to be addressed by officials and the league administration, it's the only way to get these plays out of the game. At some point they will figure out that it's better to have the stars on the ice and not in the press box.

[chippa13 1844]

Unfortunately, we saw earlier this season what one enforcer did to Orpik when he wouldn't fight. It wasn't good for anyone involved or the game. If leaving on a stretcher didn't change Orpik's ways then nothing will.

[Trooper 8]

I've always thought of the idea of "unwritten rules" and "the code" in sports to be a bit ridiculous. You have articulated rules for a reason, if players play within the letter of the rules, that should be the end of it.

[wrangler 157]

It might be, if the rules were always observed and enforced. I, for one, would prefer it that way.

[RadioGaGa 162]

Round up your friends and start another debate. I say 2, 3 games max for Douglas Murray

[EDIT]: Phone hearing...so less than 5 games. ---> http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=448058