rant: What happened to good old fashioned lie numbers on sticks?

[bunnyman666 445]

Back in my day, we would go to the sports store and go pick up either a Titan, Northland, CCM or other throwback brand of stick in a 4,5,or 6 lie, curved left or right. I did play aluminium sticks when they were first made legal for everyone. Every once in awhile, there would be something emulating a pro stick, but you would see what lie and what hand it was. Now I can't just easily pick out a stick. We would tweak our blades, heating them up, rounding toes, whatever, rewrap with some fibreglass and have our own customised stick. I realise that with carbon fibre (I used to fabricate things with that stuff), it is impossible to heat and reform curves.

It's cool that there are so many different stick configurations, but for a relative babe in the woods, it's confusing!!! Yes, you can go on the internet and look up what a "Zetterberg" blade is supposed to be like, but it still is a shot in the dark. And unless you carry a smartphone or iPad, you can't see what a Zetterberg lie is. And even then, it could start as a 6 but if you trim the heel a bit it change significantly.

On a stick, you can just pull it off of the rack and see if you like it, but it is different on a replacement blade.

I have a CCM Thornton blade with the Texalium wrap that I can take a pass well and roof the puck when needed. A carbon fibre CCM Lacavlier is okay, but I am not all that hip on how carbon blades feel. This one definitely doesn't take a pass like wood, in my observation. The blade on my Ballistik is really squirelly. I will try and find a Thornton in a tapered hosel, or have Boa make one for me.

But my question is this: what if your chosen player retires and you can't find his blade pattern and lie? Why can't they go back to lie numbers and say toe curve, heel curve, round toe, square toe, etc. etc.?

Rant over.

[chippa13 1844]

The method for lie measurements differ by company which leads to confusion when it comes to the lie of blades from company to company. That said, the Pattern DB on this very website is a good tool.

[innotastic 12]

i guess the simple explanation would be that most modern curves are kind of difficult to classify. i mean, if you look at the big toe curve thread, there are literally an infinite variety of toe curves that can play differently.

and there is no universal method for measuring lie.

most companies do label each curve with a pattern number and a player name. pattern number never changes but player name might. Easton has ditched player names all together.

[Chadd 916]

Several reasons, most of them involve economics.

Molds are expensive for composite sticks and each different lie is a different mold. Composite sticks are expensive and having multiple lies for each blade makes it very difficult for a shop to stock them all in various curves and flexes. Each curve comes in RH, LH and at least two or three senior flexes. For just one curve in three lies, that would be 6 molds and a dealer would be looking at as many as 36 sticks in three flexes if there is also a grip/no grip option. And that's just to have one of each. Assuming it's a stick that sells for $150 or so, that is over $3500 in inventory. There is just no reasonable way to offer as many options in composite sticks as they could with wood blades.

As far as putting numbers on them, there are at least three different measuring systems used by manufacturers. The numbers are already skewed pretty widely and not consistent. the best way is to buy from your local shop and compare the blade to what you already use.

The method for lie measurements differ by company which leads to confusion when it comes to the lie of blades from company to company. That said, the Pattern DB on this very website is a good tool.

I have been tied up with other issues and will hopefully have that back up soon

[bunnyman666 445]

The method for lie measurements differ by company which leads to confusion when it comes to the lie of blades from company to company. That said, the Pattern DB on this very website is a good tool.

I will check that out. I supposed it's like vanity sizing on clothes (i.e. a chick saying "there's no way I am a size 14!!!", so now she's a size 8 in the new line) and variable sizes on shoes (I am anywhere from a 9.5-11 depending on the brand), no two companies measure lie the same. Argh!!!!!

i guess the simple explanation would be that most modern curves are kind of difficult to classify. i mean, if you look at the big toe curve thread, there are literally an infinite variety of toe curves that can play differently.

and there is no universal method for measuring lie.

most companies do label each curve with a pattern number and a player name. pattern number never changes but player name might. Easton has ditched player names all together.

Kind of irritating, innit?!?? But at least Easton has ditched the names. If I seriously like this Thornton, my rink has a few more. Then boa will make me a few more. I always liked Christian sticks, and these blokes are supposedly continuing that tradition. Dave was a nice cat. Met him whilst playing in St. Louis.

Several reasons, most of them involve economics.

Molds are expensive for composite sticks and each different lie is a different mold. Composite sticks are expensive and having multiple lies for each blade makes it very difficult for a shop to stock them all in various curves and flexes. Each curve comes in RH, LH and at least two or three senior flexes. For just one curve in three lies, that would be 6 molds and a dealer would be looking at as many as 36 sticks in three flexes if there is also a grip/no grip option. And that's just to have one of each. Assuming it's a stick that sells for $150 or so, that is over $3500 in inventory. There is just no reasonable way to offer as many options in composite sticks as they could with wood blades.

As far as putting numbers on them, there are at least three different measuring systems used by manufacturers. The numbers are already skewed pretty widely and not consistent. the best way is to buy from your local shop and compare the blade to what you already use.

I have been tied up with other issues and will hopefully have that back up soon

That is the way I do is by being in the shoppe. But of course it seems that stuff is already so specialised that a babe in the woods can't get just something plain jane until s/he gets their game better!? *sub rant over*

I totally understand with moulds on composites!!!! I would make a mould from Bondo, then if I liked that and if everything was straight and passed the alignment tests and the failure tests, then mould from the positive "splash" in carbon fibre. I know many like to use stainless steel, but that becomes a $75k proposition in many cases!!! I built bicycles and components ten years ago, so I have a rough clue...

[bunnyman666 445]

I imagine that one day, you can 3D print in composites. Just print the core, then print the pre-preg, bake and compress and you have instant stick!!! This could make custom orders infinitely cheaper!!! 3D printing of aluminium is already happening...

[start_today 773]

I guess I haven't looked specifically in a while, because I only use one curve that is standardized across most brands, but do they not put the lie info on blades anymore? Is that a recent change?

[Chadd 916]

I guess I haven't looked specifically in a while, because I only use one curve that is standardized across most brands, but do they not put the lie info on blades anymore? Is that a recent change?

Warrior has stopped putting their lie on blades moving forward. Not really much of a loss as their numbers were significantly different from other manufacturers, despite many of the blades being exactly the same.

That is the way I do is by being in the shoppe. But of course it seems that stuff is already so specialised that a babe in the woods can't get just something plain jane until s/he gets their game better!? *sub rant over*

The P88/W88 and PM9 style curves are what I would suggest until you decide what will better suit your game and most manufacturers offer something very similar.

[bunnyman666 445]

I guess I haven't looked specifically in a while, because I only use one curve that is standardized across most brands, but do they not put the lie info on blades anymore? Is that a recent change?

I only see names or abbreviations. Maybe I am looking in the wrong places...

[joshy207 15]

Stick lies had pretty much gone by the wayside in the early 90's. Manufacturers started rockering the bottom of the blades. Lies were useful when blades had flat bottoms and you could accurately measure the shaft-to-ice angle. Black Beauty tried to bring that back in the mid-2000's, but it didn't catch on.

[bunnyman666 445]

Stick lies had pretty much gone by the wayside in the early 90's. Manufacturers started rockering the bottom of the blades. Lies were useful when blades had flat bottoms and you could accurately measure the shaft-to-ice angle. Black Beauty tried to bring that back in the mid-2000's, but it didn't catch on.

That freakin' blows!!!! Back in the old days, you knew what you got. Unless you study every other brand out there, it is a No Man's land these days. Again- I understand how blades get skewifferr'ed, but bloody fuggin' hell: it sucks trying to manoeuver through all of the blade patterns.

[SCOMPL 14]

Warrior has stopped putting their lie on blades moving forward. Not really much of a loss as their numbers were significantly different from other manufacturers, despite many of the blades being exactly the same.

The P88/W88 and PM9 style curves are what I would suggest until you decide what will better suit your game and most manufacturers offer something very similar.

I really don't like that Warrior isn't labeling the lie of their sticks anymore. Before, I understood that a Warrior 5 equaled a Bauer 6. Now, I have no idea what lie I'm getting when ordering online unless I stick with the same curve that I previously used.

I wish all brands would either standardize, or put the numerical angle of lie on their stick such as "135 degrees".

[Chadd 916]

I really don't like that Warrior isn't labeling the lie of their sticks anymore. Before, I understood that a Warrior 5 equaled a Bauer 6.

Your understanding was incorrect, that was not the case.

I wish all brands would either standardize, or put the numerical angle of lie on their stick such as "135 degrees".

With the radius on the bottom, there is no true lie on most blades anymore.

[flip12 717]

Is there a good system for measuring the newer rockered lies?

[romdj 26]

Your understanding was incorrect, that was not the case.

With the radius on the bottom, there is no true lie on most blades anymore.

sure you can:

measure the original angle at the heel and specify the rocker. Either straight vs aggressive form or a range of lies e.g lie 5::7.5 could be a p08

[PMurphy17 25]

Stick lies had pretty much gone by the wayside in the early 90's. Manufacturers started rockering the bottom of the blades. Lies were useful when blades had flat bottoms and you could accurately measure the shaft-to-ice angle. Black Beauty tried to bring that back in the mid-2000's, but it didn't catch on.

Had one of the worst meetings ever with Black Beauty. They couldn't understand why we wren't interested in licensing their idea for blades. Apparently they felt I was too caught up in my thinking that no retailer wanted to buy 48 different blade types to fit a single customer.

[Chadd 916]

sure you can:

measure the original angle at the heel and specify the rocker. Either straight vs aggressive form or a range of lies e.g lie 5::7.5 could be a p08

That's what warrior did and I think that is the worst possible way to do it. If you were going to measure a blade with a big rocker, measure it with the middle of the blade flat on the ice and the heel and toe in the air. That way gives you the best idea of the "effective lie".

Had one of the worst meetings ever with Black Beauty. They couldn't understand why we wren't interested in licensing their idea for blades. Apparently they felt I was too caught up in my thinking that no retailer wanted to buy 48 different blade types to fit a single customer.

I really liked the fact that you could get blades from them in so many different lies. Unfortunately, that was the only thing I liked about their product.

[masshky 1]

Slight hijack, sorry, but would most agree that the Bauer P92 / Easton P3 [Hall/Sakic] is the highest-lie pattern commonly sold at retail? I just bought a RBK P87A/Crosby with the impression that it was a clone, but the lie is definitely lower than my previous P92. Any feedback would be appreciated, thank you in advance.

[Amiroo39 121]

Slight hijack, sorry, but would most agree that the Bauer P92 / Easton P3 [Hall/Sakic] is the highest-lie pattern commonly sold at retail? I just bought a RBK P87A/Crosby with the impression that it was a clone, but the lie is definitely lower than my previous P92. Any feedback would be appreciated, thank you in advance.

Bauer has a p92 in lie 5 and 6 and Easton will soon be offering a lie 5 Sakic.