Skate Runners: How much steel should be on the ice?

[Cosmic 178]

The first time I wore the Easton Makos (borrowed from a friend, who had recently had his skates sharpened overseas), it felt like my turning was profoundly improved. I felt like I could put my weight onto my heel, and make quick, sharp turns, without losing speed. However, ever since I bought my own Makos, my turning has gone back to hell in a handbasket. It could be technique, I know. However, I think it may be the skate sharpening out here, as the skate sharpeners are notoriously clueless about skate sharpening here at the rink, and it does not help that very few of us know anything about skate sharpening either. So, this is messed up, yea? How is it supposed to look?

[chippa13 1844]

The amount of blade contact with the ice at any moment is rather small and depends on the size of the radius that you go with. The larger number on the radius, the more blade contact. Your problem could be the wrong size radius for you, an incorrect balance point for you, or some combination of the two.

[Cosmic 178]

In the US, I think my ROH would be about 10/16. We have soft ice here, and I am 215 lbs. So, I sink into the ice when I use the ROH that others use out here.

They measure the ROH differently. So, a really light guy I know uses an "8." I use a "6." So, I am pretty "dull" compared to most others. I know that ROH is not about shapr or dull, but when I tried using sharper sharpenings (like 7 and 7.5), it just felt horrible, like my edges were sticking/sinking into the ice.

No one knows what these numbers correspond with.

So, you are saying that I should have more blade contact then? I suspect I need more as well, as it just feels wrong when I try to sit on my heels for turns. (and balance point too I suspect is wrong, and needs to be moved forward)

[jimmy 194]

Is that light I see thru the middle of the runner? If so, those runners have two contact points (reverse radius) which is a very bad thing.

[jonesy9020 77]

I don't think there are necessarily two contact points, I think that light is coming through because the picture is taken with the heel of the runner on the table and the toe floating. Hard to tell what's wrong with that angle. It does look like you have a pretty aggressive forward pitched profile on those blades, which might feel really strange, especially in the Makos because the holder has a +3 or +4 forward pitch built into the CXN holder to begin with. Did you have these profiled like you've had runners on more traditional skates profiled?

[kr580 2]

It looks to me that there's a forward pitch on the sharpening. Look how thick the steel is at the heel and then look at the toe. The heel looks almost brand new but the toe is almost completely gone. Could be a weird angle but it looks like the steel narrows the full length of the blade. I'd say get those suckers profiled to something that would fit you (I'm of no help there) and see how it goes.

[JSK81 400]

ES4 runners are factory pitched. And yes, both the holder and the steel have forward lean.

It looks to me that there's a forward pitch on the sharpening. Look how thick the steel is at the heel and then look at the toe. The heel looks almost brand new but the toe is almost completely gone. Could be a weird angle but it looks like the steel narrows the full length of the blade. I'd say get those suckers profiled to something that would fit you (I'm of no help there) and see how it goes.

[Cosmic 178]

Is that light I see thru the middle of the runner? If so, those runners have two contact points (reverse radius) which is a very bad thing.

No, just one contact point. I took a bunch of pictures all over my apartment and could not get anything to show, except from this perspective. So, this was the best I could capture.

I don't think there are necessarily two contact points, I think that light is coming through because the picture is taken with the heel of the runner on the table and the toe floating. Hard to tell what's wrong with that angle. It does look like you have a pretty aggressive forward pitched profile on those blades, which might feel really strange, especially in the Makos because the holder has a +3 or +4 forward pitch built into the CXN holder to begin with. Did you have these profiled like you've had runners on more traditional skates profiled?

I do not even know what "profiling" is well enough to specifically request such a thing. I am guessing that if I understood it better, then I could explain it to the people at the rink as to how I want it. So, I think I am stating to get it. Basically, I want more blade on the ice along the back of the runner. As far as the balance point, or where the contact point is, when the runner is flat on its back, where out this be? Can someone please post a pic of how the skates are supposed to look, so I can show it to the guys at the rink? I know it is personal preference, but where should that first point of contact typically be? Right in the middle, if the skate is sitting on the back of the runner flat on the table? Or, forward a bit, or back a bit?

I do not really care for this super aggressive forward pitch. It feels a bit much to me. It has me leaning so far forward that I feel goofy, and like I said, I cannot get back on my heels in my turns (even though I had been able to in my friend's Makos of the same size).. I actually think that somewhere along the line, the skate sharpeners increased the forward pitch on me (because they are just kind of clueless, as am I on these matters). But, I do not know for sure, because I do not have a factory pitch to compare these to.

[smcgreg 81]

It looks to me that there's a forward pitch on the sharpening. Look how thick the steel is at the heel and then look at the toe. The heel looks almost brand new but the toe is almost completely gone. Could be a weird angle but it looks like the steel narrows the full length of the blade. I'd say get those suckers profiled to something that would fit you (I'm of no help there) and see how it goes.

That's what I was going to say as well. Makos with the toe shaved is going to be a very difficult balance point to skate. Ironically, my old skate sharpener did essentially the same thing to mine, but he shaved both the toe and the heel. The toe moved the balance point forward quite a bit so that I was always falling on my face. It happened over the course of a couple months though, so, I didn't realize it until I went to JR and got new steel. Fixed my problem without having to change the profile on the stock new Easton steel. As a result, "my old skate sharpener" no longer sharpens my skates.

So, your sharpener may be taking too much off the toe every time he makes a pass and it pitches you farther forward than even the aggressive standard Mako pitch. In order to compensate, you lean back more sometimes and end up catching the heel. If you don't have anybody local that is a decent sharpener, you may want to do mail order. I ended up getting two sets of steel because I needed to drive an hour each way to have JR do mine. Luckily there's a new TH in town :)

[jonesy9020 77]

I do not even know what "profiling" is well enough to specifically request such a thing. I am guessing that if I understood it better, then I could explain it to the people at the rink as to how I want it. So, I think I am stating to get it. Basically, I want more blade on the ice along the back of the runner. As far as the balance point, or where the contact point is, when the runner is flat on its back, where out this be? Can someone please post a pic of how the skates are supposed to look, so I can show it to the guys at the rink? I know it is personal preference, but where should that first point of contact typically be? Right in the middle, if the skate is sitting on the back of the runner flat on the table? Or, forward a bit, or back a bit?

I do not really care for this super aggressive forward pitch. It feels a bit much to me. It has me leaning so far forward that I feel goofy, and like I said, I cannot get back on my heels in my turns (even though I had been able to in my friend's Makos of the same size).. I actually think that somewhere along the line, the skate sharpeners increased the forward pitch on me (because they are just kind of clueless, as am I on these matters). But, I do not know for sure, because I do not have a factory pitch to compare these to.

Your problem at this point might be that if you try to go with a profile that puts you more back on your heel, you won't have enough blade height left to lean and make tight turns because the front is so shaved down and the holder will hit the ice when turning. Translation, you might need to go out and buy new runners, which is a PITA, especially with new skates that you just spent a ton of money on. I'd talk to your LHS or whoever sharpened these about a deal or store credit because their sharpening job might have put you out of about 50 bucks.

Stock picture of runner and holder: http://www.hockeymonkey.com/easton-hockey-runner-cxn.html

As you can see, the toe is narrower than the heel on the CXN blades, even when stock. However, yours seem even more pitched forward.

[start_today 773]

I don't know where in The Cosmos that you live, but if you can spare some extra money on a sharpening, consider mailing your steel to No Icing Sports, or just ordering new steel from them. http://www.noicingsports.com

They have you fill out a form online, and they do a great job diagnosing what type of radius and sharpening would be best for you. Maybe it's worth it for the piece of mind.

[Cosmic 178]

I don't know where in The Cosmos that you live, but if you can spare some extra money on a sharpening, consider mailing your steel to No Icing Sports, or just ordering new steel from them. http://www.noicingsports.com

They have you fill out a form online, and they do a great job diagnosing what type of radius and sharpening would be best for you. Maybe it's worth it for the piece of mind.

Indonesia; mail is rather expensive coming and going from here, unless it is domestic (in which case it is practically free).

[DigiV 6]

This is exactly what happened to me a week after i got my Makos. The sharpener here screwed my toe royally (i guess the already aggressive pitch threw him off?) i was falling all over the front of my skates. Since there weren't replacement runners at the time i had to switch to a completely new holder/runner.

[jonesy9020 77]

This is exactly what happened to me a week after i got my Makos. The sharpener here screwed my toe royally (i guess the already aggressive pitch threw him off?) i was falling all over the front of my skates. Since there weren't replacement runners at the time i had to switch to a completely new holder/runner.

Just curious, what holder did you switch too and how's it been working out? The holder on the mako is pitched to fit the really "downsloped" boot, and as far as I know there aren't any other holders out there with enough height difference between the front and back rivet points to accomodate that boot.

[jimmy 194]

Just curious, what holder did you switch too and how's it been working out? The holder on the mako is pitched to fit the really "downsloped" boot, and as far as I know there aren't any other holders out there with enough height difference between the front and back rivet points to accomodate that boot.

LS2's fit on the Mako perfect.

[DigiV 6]

Just curious, what holder did you switch too and how's it been working out? The holder on the mako is pitched to fit the really "downsloped" boot, and as far as I know there aren't any other holders out there with enough height difference between the front and back rivet points to accomodate that boot.

If the steel was available when mine got screwed I wouldn't of switched holders. I went with LS edge holder and ls3 runners. It works fine but I think I would've kept the cxn.

I believe the problem is the es4 runners. It's so aggressively pitched forward that these local hockey stores with crappy skate sharpeners end up passing over the toe, royally throwing the entire skate balance off by making it even more aggressively pitched. In that regard switching to ls2s was a smart decision.

[gosinger 122]

Could someone explain in basic terms how the steel on the CXN is supposed to be sharpened in contrast to say an LS2?

From my limited understanding, applying constant pressure over the entire area should not alter the pitch, and as the skate is secured within a holder which "glides" on top of an even surface this should not be too hard to manage?

Disclaimer: While I've read some things about grinding from a customer level (FBV, ROH, Cross-grinding, etc) I know nothing about the finess in the actual process.

[moreoutdoor 6]

Indonesia; mail is rather expensive coming and going from here, unless it is domestic (in which case it is practically free).

This is exactly what happened to me a week after i got my Makos. The sharpener here screwed my toe royally (i guess the already aggressive pitch threw him off?) i was falling all over the front of my skates. Since there weren't replacement runners at the time i had to switch to a completely new holder/runner.

I had a similar development a few weeks back when I got a nice (but lightly used) pair of vapors (coming from Grafs... I had them sharpened and they ended being pitched a bit too much forward. It felt very odd compared to my Grafs, which already have a very forward pitch.

There is a way to determine if pitch is the problem. What I did was get a set of those foam foot beds you can buy in any Drug Store - the 'double cushion' ones - $3/pr. I cut off the rear half of the footbed, from 1 inch behind the ball of foot. I double stick taped the forward halves (after cutting to the skate footbed shape...) underneath the skate footbeds. That raises your forefoot about 1.5 mm (when compressed by weight) and effectively reduces the forward pitch. I could have used thin plastic sheeting - but the cushions were easier to work with, and when compressed by weight they still gave a really measureable change in pitch.

This works fine if you have enough roof in the forefoot and toebox.

You'll notice the difference right away when you hit the ice, and it'll at least tell you if pitch is a major issue.

One could experiment with varying layers of 'shim' using a thin plastic sheeting, and get pretty close to what works well for you, without experimenting on an actual runner 'profile'.

Ideally, you'd like to have the runner pitch just perfect, but often you can't get quite there, and mulitple attempts can be costly and lose too much steel. Adding a thin shim (in the case of being just a bit too forward, under the heel to get more forward) may fine tune just enough to get the real sweetspot.

Once you've discovered how varying pitch feels you can have a better conversation when you do decide to 'profile' the blade - at least for pitch.

BTW: The footbed cushion shims made a big difference on my vapors, and I'll prolly keep them in until I can get some additional new runners and send these to noicing and have them re-profiled...

Don't throw the cutoff heel cushions away - putting them under the heels (as opposed to cushions under the forefoot) will do the opposite and create more forward pitch. It's some fun experimenting that can be done by anyone, a few minutes right at the rink, Skate without for a few minutes. Take skates off and add the shims, go skate again.

[Chadd 916]

Could someone explain in basic terms how the steel on the CXN is supposed to be sharpened in contrast to say an LS2?

From my limited understanding, applying constant pressure over the entire area should not alter the pitch, and as the skate is secured within a holder which "glides" on top of an even surface this should not be too hard to manage?

Disclaimer: While I've read some things about grinding from a customer level (FBV, ROH, Cross-grinding, etc) I know nothing about the finess in the actual process.

Your understanding is correct. The most common issues I see are sharpeners that go from the edge of the plastic at the toe to the edge of the plastic at the heel and using too much pressure at the start of the pass and too little at the end.