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brokensword

speed loss

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I did a quick search but didn't really find anything. What I'm wondering is if anyone has any empirical data concerning speed loss due to the size of the wheels. That is, I know there will be a loss, but how much? Can it be quantified? In another thread of mine, I found out a certain chassis made a difference in overall speed, and I'm wondering if anyone has actually tested out different sized wheels and reported back on the relative speed loss/gain. I'm trying to decide if I want to sacrifice speed for agility in that I have a choice of a smaller footprint (using 72mm) and losing speed (but how much?) and a larger footprint (76mm) and gaining speed while probably losing some agility. If anyone can weigh in, I'd appreciate it.

Michael

Edited by brokensword

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Right now imho the best option is an all 80mm chassis with a recessed front so you can really get good turns out of it. I went from all 80s to a hi-lo 80/76 and I feel like I lost a little speed and quickness but I can't really say exactly how much. I feel like I'm about a half step behind where I used to be if that makes sense.

Also all hi-lo setups have changed from a 72/80 setup to a 76/80 so maybe that will help you decide. If you play on a surface that also wears down wheels go bigger as they will always wear down to a smaller wheel.

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Not sure if this helps but it could possibly relate, bit of food for thought.

I found an unused kitchen scale the other day and decided to keep it on the work bench & long story short decided to weigh some of my wheels/bearings...etc for the hell of it(boredom).

Interestingly enough there was quite a lot of difference in weight.
Weighing 80mm wheels the Rink Rats were the heaviest at 106/107grams each soft or hard, Labeda Addictions with a standard core are 90grams, Addictions with a mini core are 100grams(which negates the marketed "lightness"of mini bearings), and then I also threw in a mini core Hyper dubb which weighed 77grams.

It seems like that sort of weighed probably wouldnt matter to much but on the other hand the difference between the AC1 & AC3's for example is 45grams(3 bearings) per boot between the liner and mag chassis.

I'm planning to buy a set of 8 Hyper Dubbs eventually to see if I notice much of a difference compared to my World Cups.
That's 30grams per wheel(assuming standard core Dubbs weigh similar).

I feel so incredibly nerdy lol but again food for thought.

Edited by Wicked3Aussie

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Thanks for your input, souldriver. I started with the 80-76 hilo, then went to a rockered 68-72-72-68 and back to a rockered 72-76-76-72. I'm currently testing out my new Sprungs which according to all advice, is to be used with the same size wheel. Hence, my question. (btw, the Sprungs are as advertised; used twice and noticed the difference right away; much better agility and much more ice-like to be sure). I'm using all 72s as of now but just wondered if all 76s would still give me the agility as well as measurable speed gain. I was hoping someone had done some actual tests using different wheels. althoma1 noted a speed increase between Sprung frames and another chassis, I was hoping for something similar re experience with wheels. Might not be much gain at all (which is what I'm thinking) and I might have to test myself, but I have a full set of 72s already, just not a full set of 76s, that's why I thought I'd ask.

Wicked: that's interesting too. I wouldn't think there'd be such a difference and also wonder though if the 'heavier' wheels might not last longer, adding another variable to the mix. Though, I'm more interested right now in some actual experience with different sized wheels; is the speed gain measurable/worth losing some agility? And not nerdy, just trying to learn, ya know?

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do they support all 80s? bc i would do that if you could. the sprung chassis moves and thats where the agility comes from less so than wheel size.

to me all 80s can be just as agile as smaller wheels and it gives the benefit of a slightly larger footprint on turns

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In regards to different sized wheels/chassis setups i've gone from Original 80/80/72/72 Hilos to Hilo Vanguards and now the Alkali straight 80s.

For myself the only noticable advantage the smaller wheel set ups have is take off and initial acceleration.

Although it's much more noticable in stand still acceleration training than say in a game.
I also prefer to V start and side start in these setups.

With the straight 80s it's opposite the only slight disadvantage is the launch and initial acceleration in a training environment.
Compared to Vanguard you need to get 8mm extra wheel moving per boot as well as having a longer chassis so more energy is required.
In an acceleration training setting it's noticable but in game it's never an issue because im always rolling & once rolling you've got extra pace everywhere with a lot less effort.
In game i'd never go back to Hilo.
I also find in training it's much easier to T start with the straight 80s, probably because of the longer chassis.

Agility has never been a factor either, if anything i'm much more agile on the straight 80s.

Hope this is a better help. :)


Edited by Wicked3Aussie

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Soul: I purchased the smaller wheelbase, the A6, which can take up to 76s, so that's the limit. I wanted to keep the footprint as close as possible to my ice boot. And even saying that, the inlines I mounted the Sprungs to were barely long enough for the A6, so I probably couldn't have used the larger A7 or A8 (which allow for the 80mm wheels) anyway.

Wicked: that does help and with althoma1's advice re using all 76s with no perceptual agility loss, I should gain some speed nonetheless. Thanks!

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Old topic but I've recently made a bit of a discovery in regards to speed/acceleration.

For fun I recently threw some 76mm 84a rinkrats on the front of my Alkalis to see what would happen.

Thinking Id be unbalanced, wheel gaps and slightly rockered front wheels...etc

In prac it was opposite, I could angle much sharper, balance felt amazing and my acceleration was noticably faster with no overt decrease in top end speed.

If anything I believe I've just simulated a movement chassis, having used friends ac1s multiple times and not seeing a performance increase over my alkalis worth noting.

This increase was fairly dramatic and non incremental.

I'll be trying a friends shift + this weekend as standard and with 76mm on the front to test it out but i'm assuming I'll come to the same conclusion.

The increase is in the Alkali boot pitch/chassis design.

Just thought I'd share that with everyone incase someone else wanted to give it a go.

Edited by Wicked3Aussie
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What do you mean by agility? Because to me, agility means things like changing direction to go left or right and stopping and starting. My logic may be flawed but bigger wheels leave a bigger footprint which equates to more grip. Well more grip goes hand and hand with stopping and pushing off. So as long as you have the proper wheel base for your size skate(I had to go down to 76s with my smaller alkalis) then wouldn't you ultimately want a bigger wheel?

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See that just it, for the most part I would've agreed with you in theory but in prac I've found what I would consider a substantial gain.

In regards to stopping more wheel means more grip/greater force.

But by agility I mean cutting in, instant direction changes and sharper turns and then having noticably increased acceleration to power out.

instead of low speed clunkyness and having to bend my knees further to compensate.

They feel so balanced and so much more controlable.

For your skates it would be the equivalent of trying 72mm on the front.

I don't think this is a product of hilo it's self having used ac1s multiple times and finding them meh.

I believe I've simulated a movement chassis with less rolling resistance due to 8mm less on the floor.

Either way Idefinitely think its the pitch of the alkali boot and or chassis. :D

I'm going to be having another go on a friends shift + this weekend with all 80s and then with my 76mm on the front to see if I can repeat and enhance the feeling.

Then I'm going to try 72mm on mine.

Followed with a test on another friends ac1s for a direct comparison.

Edited by Wicked3Aussie

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IMHO it's nothing but a placebo effect. The fastest guy in the game (Nielson Archibald) skates on a hi-lo Vanguard frame. In the end, it's nothing more than a matter of preference.

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See that just it, for the most part I would've agreed with you in theory but in prac I've found what I would consider a substantial gain.

In regards to stopping more wheel means more grip/greater force.

But by agility I mean cutting in, instant direction changes and sharper turns and then having noticably increased acceleration to power out.

instead of low speed clunkyness and having to bend my knees further to compensate.

They feel so balanced and so much more controlable.

For your skates it would be the equivalent of trying 72mm on the front.

I don't think this is a product of hilo it's self having used ac1s multiple times and finding them meh.

I believe I've simulated a movement chassis with less rolling resistance due to 8mm less on the floor.

Either way Idefinitely think its the pitch of the alkali boot and or chassis. :D

I'm going to be having another go on a friends shift + this weekend with all 80s and then with my 76mm on the front to see if I can repeat and enhance the feeling.

Then I'm going to try 72mm on mine.

Followed with a test on another friends ac1s for a direct comparison.

how did this go? I'm about to switch from Mission t7 to Alkali RPD Max. I've read that the new movement chassis is supposed to put you in a more aggressive stance. Seems like it would be somewhere between the Hi-Lo chassis and the Labeda Hummer chassis.

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I still use that same set up with 76mm wheels on the front.

I've tried going back to all 80mm a few times but it's redundant on the CA boot.

On 76mm I can launch & accelerate harder with less energy loss with greater control for agility & minimal clunkyness with no noticeable decrease in top speed.

I did try it on the shift+ boots and it felt a lot more nimble again being slightly lower with the movement chassis.

I have no numbers or raw data to back this up other than to say if you can, definitely give it a go and you'll see what I mean.

I've also since switched to bones Swiss ceramics and dropped a further 10g per boot over previous Labeda Swiss OEM bearings with much, much greater roll(very pricey though).

Edited by Wicked3Aussie

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was the difference less noticeable on the movement chassis?

I had a pair of Tour Code1's but they were clumsy and fell apart in less than a year so I went back to Mission and the Hi-Lo. I was going to stick with Mission and get a pair of Inhaler 2/3s, but HockeyMonkey had the RPD Max for $200 and I just couldn't pass that up.

Edited by FLHockey

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Yeah it was definitely noticeable.

I forgot to mention I went to try 72mm as well but as soon as I fit them I noticed the second wheel didn't touch the ground at all so I didn't proceed with it.

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I am going to agree with kovalchuck on this. I have two pair of ccms tacks converted to inline. One has a 72-80 chasis and the other a sure grip. I also have a alkali teams. I recently got back in to playing. I start with the hi lo (I am not a fan, never was). ordered the alkalis skated on them for a couple months daily. They are now retired as I was not a fan of the pitch or the 80 set up. I am back to my convert pro tacks. I personally don't like the 80 set up even changing it to 76 still leaves me sitting higher and the wheels stick out to far in the front and back for my liking. I may not be the fastest but I am sure not the slowest. I also Imagine in comes down to what you learned on. I am a dinosaur and learned in the 90s I skated the first mission proto vsi till they feel off my feet. The ccm pro tack with sure grip is as close is I can get to that set up.

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Are you talking about switching to all 76mm or just the front 2 wheels?

I only switched the front 2 wheels and left the rears as 80mm in I guess a bespoke Hilo set up.

It's all physics, lowering the chassis/COG with the smaller wheels, reducing the weight of the skates & reducing the rolling diameter and surface contact of the wheels.

less surface contact & rolling diameter makes launches/acceleration easier and wastes less energy(especially an issue in CA series) as well as the reduced weight and the lower centre of gravity which also for me provides sharper turning/agility.

On the CA series it more or less mimicks a movement chassis and there's a reason Alkali went with that chassis redesign(I'm also guessing that's why Justin liked my previous post).

The thing I don't like about the teams which can throw you off is the weight, they are quite heavy.

Even the RPD Max/ max + are something like 200g heavier per boot than an apxr2 or ds1.

Weight is one of my pet hates with Alkali.

Feel/comfort/preference though is obviously going to be different for everyone so this sort of set up wont be as comfy for you as your older chassis.

I chase performance ahead of comfort(I have permanent ankle scars from my Mission Wicked lights) but I find the 80807676 setup much more comfortable/controllable.

I'll have to do a back to back time comparison and video it.

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the teams aren't as have as the pro tack boot and sure grip frame. I choose it over the others because of the boot isn't as high, its not as pitched forward, being a frame set up for all 76s means the length is shorter, and the boot sits lower to the ground. Like I said different strokes for different folks.

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Bumping thread as this is related.

I'm looking to purchase the CCM Tacks inline skates which have an all 80MM setup. I have skated on Hi-Lo for the last 15 years and am just a little concerned all 80mm will be strange.

I was going to just grab some 76mm and chuck them on the front to increase the pitch even more. Anyone got any opinions on these skates?

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Bumping thread as this is related.

I'm looking to purchase the CCM Tacks inline skates which have an all 80MM setup. I have skated on Hi-Lo for the last 15 years and am just a little concerned all 80mm will be strange.

I was going to just grab some 76mm and chuck them on the front to increase the pitch even more. Anyone got any opinions on these skates?

Unless it is designed for it, you can't put 76mm on the front of an all 80mm setup. I've skated in Hi-lo (Bauer) and flat (Alkali), there is a period of adjustment but generally the 80mm setups are pitched forward.

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i was a long time hilo user as well and it didn't take me long to adjust (about the same adjustment period as going from the old 80-72 config to the 80-76). I definitely feel more agile and quicker on hi-los; I feel like I have more grip and top speed on straight 80. ymmv

all 80 mm setups feel flat footed to me, despite the marketing terms like "aggressively pitched". alkali have an aggressive boot angle but not actual skate pitch if that makes sense. helps a little with proper knee bend but different that actually pitching the skate forward more.

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Recent convert to Alkali Teams after years on standard Hi-Los, most recently mounted on a beat up CCM U+12 ice boot.

I've found the Alkali skates very comfortable, and I do feel that I can coast much longer with less rolling resistance, but feel I have lost the ability to accelerate quickly, and I feel much more back on my heels. I've mitigated this a little by skipping the top eyelet, but I still feel slower. To add to this, I am a longtime relatively unmodified Supreme user on ice, so I don't need an overly pitched-forward boot setup. I have never felt the need to skip an eyelet prior to the Alkalis, as I prefered the lateral stability from a full lace up over the slight increase in forward flex. In the Alkali, I feel like I'm in ski boots when laced up all the way, and like I have gobs of forward flex when one eyelet down.  I found this particularly odd as the Alkali Teams are softer than my typical boot. 

Looking for suggestions on how to get some quickness back.  Was thinking of mounting a hi-lo chassis on the alkali boot. Open to suggestions. 

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On 11/08/2017 at 0:49 AM, jonesy9020 said:

Recent convert to Alkali Teams after years on standard Hi-Los, most recently mounted on a beat up CCM U+12 ice boot.

I've found the Alkali skates very comfortable, and I do feel that I can coast much longer with less rolling resistance, but feel I have lost the ability to accelerate quickly, and I feel much more back on my heels. I've mitigated this a little by skipping the top eyelet, but I still feel slower. To add to this, I am a longtime relatively unmodified Supreme user on ice, so I don't need an overly pitched-forward boot setup. I have never felt the need to skip an eyelet prior to the Alkalis, as I prefered the lateral stability from a full lace up over the slight increase in forward flex. In the Alkali, I feel like I'm in ski boots when laced up all the way, and like I have gobs of forward flex when one eyelet down.  I found this particularly odd as the Alkali Teams are softer than my typical boot. 

Looking for suggestions on how to get some quickness back.  Was thinking of mounting a hi-lo chassis on the alkali boot. Open to suggestions. 

I went through the same thing.

Best thing you can do is what I did and chuck 76mm wheels on the front(it does fit) and if you're really keen look for ways to reduce weight.

Revisions are the lightest wheels, then Labeda and then rink rat, bones bearings weigh less than Hilo....etc

In the end though I retired my Alkalis and replaced them with a set of Bauer 1XR's and haven't looked back.

Even after a year of my abuse they're still out of the box stiff.

Give the 76mm front wheels a go first and see how that goes, that's where you'll notice the biggest difference.

Hope this helps!

 

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