Starting in Goal as an Adult

[psulion22 402]

Lookin good, OR. Your stance is much, much better. I'm sure you feel more mobile and agile as a result. I'd maybe bring your glove hand a little down and a little more in front of you. It's hard to tell from the behind angle for sure, but I think you're covering too high based on the aerial angle of the puck. If you bring the hand down a little, and more in front, you cover the aerial angle while at the same time shortening your required range of motion to increase speed and reducing fatigue. The other thing to consider is the newer idea that a goalie should be trying to get their head behind the puck as much as possible (termed Head trajectory). So on a shot, you should be dropping by bringing your entire body behind the puck instead of reaching with hands or legs. There are several perceived benefits of this. According to InGoalMag, the change to this technique is what was responsible for Devan Dubnyk's improvement this season. You can read the article, which has a good explanation of what it means, and decide if you want to try it. I've been adding it, and think my rebound control is better because I'm trapping a lot more pucks in my chest. http://ingoalmag.com/technique/dubnyk-bounces-back-head-trajectory-and-more/

You definitely have to work on those feet clicking backwards behind you. It's making you immobile. And it's actually more dangerous because if you get hit with your feet that far behind you, you won't be able to roll out of it and risk a knee injury.

I know you say it's a flexibility issue. But you aren't doing it on every save. It's mostly on low shots towards your 5 hole. You're not confident in your ability, so you're pulling your feet back to try to keep the puck from sliding through. On higher shots, you use a wider flare.

Check out Maria Mountain's Butterfly challenge to work on your flexibility. It's free http://hockeygoalietraining.com/wordpress/butterfly-intro/

Edited July 1, 2015 by psulion22

[Law Goalie 147]

Excellent analysis, PSU, particularly with respect to the heel-clicking attempts to stop five-hole shots.

I'm actually working on a lengthy 'basic butterfly' post right now (thanks to Canada Day), which I hope will be both relevant and helpful, but there's one other thing I'll throw in right now.

Having glanced at a few of Optimus' clips, I get the impression that when he anticipates a five-hole shot, he narrows his stance; this leaves him trying to knee-drop on top of the shot, rather than butterflying in front of it, and then (as you note) trying to trap the puck with his heels rather than stopping it with the front of his pads. I've often noticed this narrowing of the stance, and these related problems, with older goalies who grew up watching and emulating stand-up goalies.

What I'd suggest for the moment, OR, is to try to focus on what your body does when you anticipate a shot. Starting in the warm-up, focus on widening your feet (even slightly), bending your knees (again, even slightly) and squeezing your knees together as you anticipate the shot; when you see the release and know it's going five-hole, push your knees down and together and forget about your feet: your knees will make the save, not your heels.

Again, much more to follow, but I thought this might be a good way to introduce it.

[IPv6Freely 2092]

I think the problem here is that I know I can't get the 5-hole closed no matter how hard I try so it's almost like I'm compensating by making sure my legs are closed behind me.

I mean, even if I put on my skates and pads at home, drop into a butterfly on the carpet and actually take the time to physically move my legs, knees, etc all into the right place theres STILL a pretty huge gap. I think its a combination of a couple things:

- Obviously flexibility, specifically in the hips. A wider flare is going to allow me to get the 5-hole tighter. At this point because of how bad my flexibility is, my thighs are fully closed, my knee stacks are butted up tightly against each other, and STILL there's a huge gap. Widening that flare is going to allow my thigh rises to get closer together before the knee stacks touch.

- I think my pads are too small. I'm in 33+1 Brians, and my knee pads are right at the tip edge of my knee stacks when I'm in the butterfly. I tried on some 34+1 Brians the other day and theres about a 1" space between the top of the knee stack and my knee pads. I also had no issue getting the 5-hole closed when trying those on the goaliemonkey synthetic ice.

See here (NOTE this is just me looking at the fit, I'm not trying to close the 5-hole here... I was able to close it fully in these pads):

(I was shocked by how good the attached Brians knee pads were. Not thigh boards but actual knee pads on this model. Very comfortable! But would definitely be keeping my Passaus!)

I also noticed one interesting thing the other day. When I sit (anywhere... couch, computer chair, even in the car when im not the one driving) I sit with my knees apart and my feet together. Like the bottom right image here:

I find when I consciously try to sit with my feet on the same line with my knees and thighs (top left image), the front of my hips actually hurts a bit. This is obviously an issue here. It's something I guess I've just done all my life and never really noticed until now. Again, Maria Mountain to the rescue!

I will say though, it's a whole hell of a lot better than when I first started. This photo is from page 3 of this thread, when I first got my gear and had never yet been on the ice. Wow.

Edited July 1, 2015 by OptimusReim

[Law Goalie 147]

Yeah, I'd say based on that first picture, you could stand to go up an inch in Brian's, and maybe move to a +2 on the same standard. Overlap at the thigh is rarely a problem, and it's easy to adjust.

The other thing you can do is to try to pull your pads a little higher on your skates by getting a little extra leverage through the boot-strap: putting it through the heel or around the back of the ankle (Lundqvist-style -- I remember you mentioning you were looking at the new Reactor skates), and tightening a notch or so.

Based on your reference images and what you describe (caveat: not an MD, B.Sc., etc.) I'd say you've got the diagnosis down. Your relaxed seated posture is almost certainly an indication of the degree of hip rotator weakness and inflexibility that's hindering your butterfly, and it's probably pretty severe.

The good news, there, is that flexibility really is trainable at any age and almost any fitness level, and you'll notice huge gains pretty quickly. I highly recommend (on the advice of Maria Mountain, Mike Boyle, and others) getting a foam roller to help loosen things up. They're cheap and ludicrously effective. Combined with exercise, you will make great strides faster than you'd think.

That said, I think if you focus on changing your pre-shot behaviours -- widening and deepening your stance just a little, squeezing your knees together (via mild internal hip rotation), as you see the shooter loading up -- you'll be able to both use your current level of flexibility more effectively and lay the groundwork for your off-ice training to translate into your game.

Bravo, sir, and godspeed. If all beer-league goalies were blessed with your sportsmanship -- not as fair-play, but as a comportment to sport -- the world would be a better place.

By the way, sorry to talk about you in the third person when you're clearly present in the thread; just a habit.

[bunnyman666 445]

Well done, Opti! You look good in goal. Your hard work is paying off.

Seeing how you "click" your heels, I probably do the same thing. I have tried to drive my knees, but this set of pads I have aren't rotating worth a toss. I see that we do the same thing for low shots through the five hole. The front of my pads end up flat on the ice half of the time. But they feel better, feel more durable and safer than what I started with. I am saving for a set of Factory Mad pads.

When I did find myself immoble, probably my feet were too close together. As soon as I am cleared for regular exercise and skating, I'm joining you on the Mountain Butterfly programme.

I saw the hint of a Hasek roll in this video. Again- you are progressing well. I have seen Crawford and Bishop let in the same types of shots that you had let in. Hand position is something all of us newbies need to work on.

Your D was definitely better this time. Don't be afraid to give a gentle nudge if a winger gets in your grille. Not a whack, not even a shove, but a gentle nudge with your trap. After all, he's trying to make certain that you don't see the puck and to tie you up for the empty net. This was something I was infamous as a winger for doing when I was playing competitive hockey 10,000 years ago.

Edited July 1, 2015 by bunnyman666

[beedee 227]

Law Goalie, if one was to go from using the middle slot in the cowling for the boot strap (very loosely) to the rear slot in the cowling, would it be wise to adjust (loosen) the toe ties to accommodate the new positioning?

[Law Goalie 147]

Absolutely.

Excerpt:

Keeping your ties/straps undone as above, lower yourself into a deep, shot-ready stance, and then butterfly, and hold that position as comfortably as you can. Note the position of your skate-toes relative to the toe of your pads. While holding this position, have your friend (or you yourself) take your tie-ties and stretch them out to reach the toe of the skate, then mark this place on the ties with the marker; do the same for the other pad. Now have your friend take the boot-strap(s), pass them through your skate, and tighten them until they *just* snugly support the skate in its current position, without pushing, pulling, twisting, or otherwise displacing the skate, then mark.

The next part is a little convoluted, and some goalies get confused. The standard advice, at this point, is to tie knots in the toe-ties (or otherwise create permanent 'slack' or elastic 'play' in the toe-attachment) until you reach those marks on the toe-ties. However, if you do this as described, you will end up with toe-ties that are much shorter than you need. What you need to do, instead, is measure the length from the toe of the pads to the marks you made on the toe-ties, then tie knots collectively equal to the length of that measurement, which will likely leave the original marks somewhere win the middle of your chain of knots. This will give you the correct amount of slack. Naturally, those with sliding toe-bridges or elastic attachments will have less actual slack, since the medial/lateral movement of the sliding toe-bridge and the elasticity are factors as well.

Or you could just remove your toe-ties altogether. I haven't used them in years. I originally took them off for coaching (so I could pop my pads on and off as quickly as possible), but then started using that pair sans toe-ties in a few skates and games, and gradually realised I didn't miss the toe connection at all.

[badger_14 601]

After reading the post on pad-rotation, I decided to take some of the advice into account, and played with the boot strap a few holes looser than usual, along with the two calf straps. Felt a bit weird at first- floppy, like I might actually have more trouble with having to knock them back into place, but as I got into the game I actually felt more mobile. No trouble with the twisting. There's still some of what the thread called forward tilt, and I think part of this is my technique, and some of it might be the thigh boards getting crumpled along the hem of my pants. Overall, felt good, equipment-wise. Game-wise... I felt like I was doing pretty terribly but I think the guy at the other end was actually doing about the same. For whatever reason I was catching a lot of pucks on the top of my pads, like between my elbow and pads. I missed a couple by simply not being fast enough. A couple more because I couldn't see or that ricocheted off someone's stick. (yes, this is a very high-scoring skate - it's allegedly a "low intermediate league", but it only has two teams and they're inconsistent enough that it's functionally a C-level pickup skate, as the score is not kept.) Better defence than I usually see in pickup, but I miss skating with the Saturday group. That rink is closed til August, sadly.

[Law Goalie 147]

badger, I can almost guarantee the tilt is being caused by the interaction of your pants and thigh-boards with your pads. Seriously, get rid of the thigh-boards and find yourself some knee-pads. Whatever annoyances the knee-pads may present, they are nothing on the problems that thigh protection attached to the back of the pads can cause. If you can find a pair of John Brown's, they are worth their weight in gold; failing that, the new CCM KPPRO ones look promising. I talked about them a fair bit in the 2015 CCM catalogue review, but I haven't had a chance to get my hands on them yet.

It's also possible that your pants themselves are jamming on the backs of the pads. Remind me: what pants/pads are you using? If they have flat thighs, large ridges on the outside or inside of the thigh, or thick padding on the inside of the thigh (around the leg) the pants may also be among the culprits.

That said, there are some technical improvements that can make modern pads behave a little better. The main thing is to try to be as 'snappy' or 'crisp' with your knees as possible. When you're driving your knees down, really drive that movement with internal hip rotation; conversely, when you're recovering, snap the knee(s) back up through external rotation. As long as your pads are strapped properly -- loose enough to allow your knee to rotate behind the pad, but not so loose that you're falling out of them -- your pads will stay facing forward (ie. square to the plane of your body) consistently. Snapping your knees down will ensure that they don't get 'jammed' at the corner of the back of the pad and the knee-block, and snapping them up will ensure that the pad stays square as your knee returns to a standing position.

You can practise this without full recoveries. Butterfly, then snap one knee up (until your skate-blade is on the ice) then slam it down again, and alternate; when you feel like you're getting really good coordination, you can start lifting the alternate leg while the other is still going down. From there, it's just a short move to the 'impressive' (but only minimally useful) double-leg or 'pop-up' recovery, which doesn't require anything like the core strength or balance that many people think it does.

If you find yourself trapping or squeezing a lot of pucks on top of your pads, that's usually a sign that a goalie is holding his (or her) hands a little far back. Try holding them well out in front of you, so that they're in your foveal (forward) visual field, rather than in the peripheral field. This may feel utterly bizarre at first -- you may feel like a Romero zombie, reaching out in search of brains -- but your hand/eye will improve dramatically, and, in addition, holding your gloves further forward makes them 'bigger' to the puck's perspective, 'cutting down' the shooting angle even further. (It's like having bigger gloves for free.)

[badger_14 601]

The only annoyance knee-pads present right now is that they cost money.

Currently I'm using Bauer Reactor 5K pads and Bauer Classic pants. The pads are a few weeks into use and fit much better than my old pads overall. The pants are fairly minimal in size and padding, not overly bulky by my estimation.

I suspect that you're right - I think I do tend to kind of squash my arms to my sides instead of holding my arms out front.

Next time I play I'll try and wrangle someone into taking video/photo of me in goal.

[beedee 227]

n/a

Edited August 28, 2015 by beedee

[beedee 227]

n/a

Edited August 28, 2015 by beedee

[IPv6Freely 2092]

Beauty. I envy the ice time you're able to get.

[beedee 227]

.......

Edited July 14, 2015 by beedee

[magnets 98]

Just read this thread from start to finish, and it's like going back 2 years to when I started.

Learned to skate at 35 (Australia doesn't give you much ice to work with), first competitive game at 36. I'm two seasons down. First ended with a 0.770SV% 4.31GAA, finished the second season with a championship, a 0.928SV% 1.07GAA. I went through all the same issues you guys have talked about, going into my first year with no experience, and no goal coaching other than players shooting as hard as they could on me. During the off season joined a group that were significantly better than me for 3 on 3 sessions on a small sheet of ice, and did some coaching clinics with the local national league goalie (Australian Ice Hockey League - had an import goalie from the UK). The combination of somebody finally telling me "this is what went wrong, and here's what you need to change to fix it", as well as playing guys above my level made the world of difference.

Watch as much video as you can of not only the best in the world, but any footage you can see of yourself. The GoPro footage posted earlier is awesome, and if I had more of me early, it would've made the world of difference. Work on the flexibility (I love Maria Mountain's program!), and watch your game improve. Only dwell on the goals against long enough to remember how it beat you, and how to possibly get it next time, then move on. Keeping it in mind the rest of the session won't get the goal out of the net, but it might distract you long enough for the next shot on goal to be the next one in the net.

[badger_14 601]

I've had two rather awful (or at least mediocre) games in a row and feeling down on myself for it. Last night - defence was perfectly fine, no major breakaways or anything, I was just off-kilter and felt out of position constantly. Going down too soon, not soon enough. Out of 'zen' with the posts and crease and where I am in the net. I actually tipped two into my own goal - one off the blocker and one off the glove, and I know I was too far back in the crease most of the time. It took me to about 45 minutes in to feel like I was hitting a stride. I could blame it on driving out to an unfamiliar place at night, getting slightly lost, and having to get dressed in 15 minutes and having no warm-up whatsoever, but that seems like a cop-out. Oof. I wish I could find some practice time - the local clinics don't start up again til the fall, although if I wanted to I could drop $65 on a lesson at the rink down the street.

Starting with an AM pickup group next week. Looking forward to that if I can put a little confidence back into my skate.

[magnets 98]

Chin up Badger. I know the games I don't feel mentally prepared for are the ones I struggle with too. The other guys on my team always laugh when they think they're early and I'm already half dressed in the room, but if I don't have time before a game to shut the distractions out, I just struggle to get into the moment.

A comment a coach gave me after a particularly bad game early in my career. "Don't sweat the score-line. For you to even have a chance to get beaten, five other guys on your team had to get beaten first."

[badger_14 601]

That's good advice, I'll try to remember it.

Even as a player I always tried to get to the rink early (and perils of public transit, I am often forced to arrive at least an hour beforehand). Less hectic that way. Unfortunately it's not always feasible to rent a zipcar (a short term car-rental service in the US) for that long. Funny thing, I had a terrible game last time I drove myself, too... I need more practice at driving and goaltending, obviously.

[IPv6Freely 2092]

Had a good game tonight. Won 5-1. Great D in front of me.

The one goal scored was a fantastic tip that went top corner on the blocker side. No chance at stopping it, though I was deeper in the net than I should have been and if I had been out more it may have cut off the angle on the tip right into me instead of up and over me.

Surprised I played so well considering I drove straight from the airport to the rink and was dead tired from a day of flying.

With that game my season save % is now .904. I'm pretty pumped about that!

Still haven't had a chance to skate in my VH yet :(

[beedee 227]

cool shot of me from last nights game, check out the puck in the air!

[IPv6Freely 2092]

You need a green stripe on your pads as well :)

[IPv6Freely 2092]

About bloody time I got a chance to try these.

[beedee 227]

nice! looking forward to the review man.

regarding the green stripe, i have green tape and thought about adding it but am leaning towards the subtlty of just the blue one.

[badger_14 601]

I decided since I've been working hard as an EMT, I should reward myself with a goalie lesson. Because the appropriate reward for difficult, physically demanding, sweaty work is of course difficult, physically demanding, sweaty sport. As I'd been despairing over my play and feeling off-kilter it seemed like a good choice.

I didn't get a great deal of feedback, per se, but it was a great opportunity for some controlled practice and movement work, which makes me feel overall a lot better. Lessons at my local rink are done on synthetic ice, which was a new experience. Increased friction, tricky to get the hang of at first - I felt like I couldn't move at all for the first five minutes. We did some lunges to warm up, then stretched out, and did body position and shuffling, and body position in the crease - first in the butterfly, then going from butterfly and driving to the post. Quite a workout. A lot of fun - basic stuff but it gave me a re-set button of sorts. I start a new pick-up session tomorrow and hopefully will not be a mess of knots in the morning.

Slightly irksome: my gear is now covered in tiny plastic shavings from the synthetic ice.

[magnets 98]

Had my first on ice session for three weeks last night.

Wow, was I rusty! Amazing how quick you seem to lose all ability you had!