Bauer LS3 or LS4 Runners

[incubus4fun 0]

Hey all, I have Bauer Vapor APX2 skates and I hate the fusion runners. Trying to get new runners I want to decide between LS3 and LS4. Any advice? Or should I stick to LS3 and save money?

[ChitownPuck91 0]

For about the same price as new Bauer steel you could get STEP steel. Its just a better quality steel that holds an edge longer

Hey all, I have Bauer Vapor APX2 skates and I hate the fusion runners. Trying to get new runners I want to decide between LS3 and LS4. Any advice? Or should I stick to LS3 and save money?

For about the same price as new Bauer steel you could get STEP steel. Its just a better quality steel that holds an edge longer. Also, I believe the ls4 steel is only made for the EDGE holder (correct me if i'm wrong), and the APX2 has the regular lightspeed.

[incubus4fun 0]

Apx2 has edge holder. I don't know if step fits.

[psulion22 402]

LS4 has had problems with breakage in the early going. If you need te steel right now, I would stay away from LS4 and go LS3. If you can wait a little while, then go LS4 when they get the issue sorted out. If you're willing to spend the money on the LS4, which runs around $100, BlackEdge coated LS3 is also an option. You can find new sets on eBay for around the same price, and the coating will give you a harder edge like LS4 is meant to do.

[ChitownPuck91 0]

Apx2 has edge holder. I don't know if step fits.

you're right. step won't fit.

[Baz1985 5]

Why not go with what steel has the closest profile to what you normally use? That way you won't use much steel when getting them profiled.

[incubus4fun 0]

Mostly because I tried fusion and didn't like it. Just trying to find a better blade.

[Baz1985 5]

Mostly because I tried fusion and didn't like it. Just trying to find a better blade.

What profile do you like to use? Do you have plenty steel on the fusions? If you have plenty life on them get them profiled to suit you.

[60PlusWinger 82]

STEP is not available for edge holders and once you switch holders to LS2 and get STEP youre looking at a lot of money. I used to have Fusion steel and now I have LS4. Get LS4 instead.

[psulion22 402]

Mostly because I tried fusion and didn't like it. Just trying to find a better blade.

What about the Fusion don't you like?

[incubus4fun 0]

I feel like I got half the sharpening out of them. Got a small chip in the first game and I am down to almost no blade after 6 months.

[psulion22 402]

The steel portion of the Fusion is the same as the LS3. So if durability and ability to hold an edge is your issue, then LS3 will be no different. The advantage of LS3 over Fusion is the increased height and better integrity because it doesn't have the fused aluminum portion. So if you need better edge retention, then you'll have to go to LS4 or coated LS3.

[flyers10 57]

I thought the steel portion of fusion was same as LS2 and LS3 and LS4 had bit more usable steel.

[psulion22 402]

We're not talking about the usable portion when I say "they're the same". We're talking about how the OP is concerned his steel is too soft and wants something that will hold the edge better and need less sharpenings. I don't know what he had before the Fusion, but there shouldn't be a difference between Fusion and LS2. So if that's what it was, he must have had them sharpened more often, meaning he needs a harder steel. Personally, I have had either Step or Blackedge steel forever before getting MX3's and being forced to use the Fusion. The stock Bauer steel doesn't hold an edge, and I'm finding myself having to sharpen more often and I'm burning through steel as a result. When i need new steel, i will be getting either LS4 (if they've fixed it) or coated LS3.

The composition of the steel, ie its hardness and ability to hold the edge, is the same in LS2, LS3, and Fusion. LS2 is all steel. Fusion is the same height as LS2, but has an aluminum section fused to the steel section at the top to cut weight. LS3 is all steel, but roughly 3 mm taller than LS2/Fusion. LS4 is the same thicker height of LS3, but made of a different, harder steel. The harder steel is meant to hold an edge better and longer. However, there are reports of breakage because the hardness has made the steel brittle. LS3/LS4 would have about 3mm more usable steel, but that isn't the only difference. He got half the sharpenings as whatever he had before, but moving to LS3 will only give him an extra 3mm of steel. Switching to LS4 or coated LS3 will give him the extra 3mm, but also harder steel that will need less sharpenings. The steel should theoretically last longer.

The point is that if the OP is not happy with how soft his Fusion steel is, changing to LS3 will not make a difference. He will have to go to LS4 or a coated LS3 blade to get a stronger, longer lasting edge.

[MThockeydad 469]

LS4 is the same thicker height of LS3, but made of a different, harder steel. The harder steel is meant to hold an edge better and longer. However, there are reports of breakage because the hardness has made the steel brittle. LS3/LS4 would have about 3mm more usable steel, but that isn't the only difference. He got half the sharpenings as whatever he had before, but moving to LS3 will only give him an extra 3mm of steel. Switching to LS4 or coated LS3 will give him the extra 3mm, but also harder steel that will need less sharpenings. The steel should theoretically last longer.

Didn't Bauer refuse to license the Edge blade profile to Step? (Possibly in anticipation of offering the LS4?)

[psulion22 402]

Didn't Bauer refuse to license the Edge blade profile to Step? (Possibly in anticipation of offering the LS4?)

Yep. Bauer has a patent on the design, and they are the only ones that make steel that will fit. And I would say that LS4 was designed to be harder, like Step, because that's what people wanted.

[kovalchuk71 212]

I would wait on the LS4 steel until Bauer confirms that the kinks have been worked out of it. It's currently on recall.

[mickz 107]

Still weary of Bauer's change from 1 year to just 90 days for their steel warranty.

[60PlusWinger 82]

Fusion steel is used by NO one in the NHL. Due to the hybrid materials it's lighter but pretty weak and wears down fast. I went through 3/4ths of my steel in 6 months where my LS4 now is like new after 3

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Fusion steel is used by NO one in the NHL. Due to the hybrid materials it's lighter but pretty weak and wears down fast. I went through 3/4ths of my steel in 6 months where my LS4 now is like new after 3

Yah I would disagree its the exact same quality of LS3 it sure does not sharpen the same. Chips easier and doesn't hold in the holder the same if you do not clamp the steel only. If you clamp the aluminum to hard it flex's and throws the level off.

If going edge I would go LS3. Wait as mentioned on confirmation of LS 4 fixing there hardness issue. ( was coming in at 61 to 64 Rockwell ..should be between 56 and 59 to match Step)

[60PlusWinger 82]

Yah I would disagree its the exact same quality of LS3 it sure does not sharpen the same. Chips easier and doesn't hold in the holder the same if you do not clamp the steel only. If you clamp the aluminum to hard it flex's and throws the level off.

If going edge I would go LS3. Wait as mentioned on confirmation of LS 4 fixing there hardness issue. ( was coming in at 61 to 64 Rockwell ..should be between 56 and 59 to match Step)

What is this Rockwell you speak of sir? Hardness measurement? What have you heard about ls4?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

What is this Rockwell you speak of sir? Hardness measurement? What have you heard about ls4?

Yes Rockwell Hardness is the test measurement used for all steel but in the case a setting to which the companies try and get into a range that holds an edge well and lasts longer. 56 to 58 is the best range (Step BlackEdge) Others are all over the map. Meaning a 100 skate may come in at 38 or 50 and is very soft and doesn't hold an edge well. Maximum Edge Bob Allen has records from years and years of studying blades. His own LS2 style steel was in this range. I am not sure if he still has it available.

[Pappa 11]

Interesting discussion. Especially about LS4 steel for EDGE holders. This may help you decide. Today, I am working on Aaron Ekblad's Bauer Vapor 1X skates. Replacing his LS3 steels for LS4 steels. He has been using LS3 steels. Both LS3 and LS4 EDGE steel comes from Bauer, laser cut at a 10 foot profile and with a neutral pitch. The LS4 steel is harder (as a poster indicated) than the LS3 steel. It is also 3mm. taller. It is very 'similar' in both hardness and 'blade height' as Step Steel. As mentioned in previous posts, Bauer is not releasing the patent rights of EDGE steel, so Step Steel is not available for EDGE holders. The 'Fusion Steel' is not used at the NHL level because the aluminum component allows the sreel to bends so easily. Equiptment managers would spend WAY too much time trying to straighten those steels. I would not suggest Fusion Steel for anyone playing competitive hockey, especially anyone playing defense. Yes, light in weight, huge in bent blade problems. Not worth the bending problems versus minimal weight gain.

Aaron's steel on both the LS3 and LS4 steels is profiled at an 11 foot RADIUS. The APEX of the profile is 'set-back' slightly. The PITCH of the profile is FORWARD (very slightly). This slight forward PITCH actually 'translates' into an F-2 forward pitch on HIS skates. This is because he uses a 'lift plate' of 1/8th. of an inch between the rear tower of the EDGE holder and the sole of the skate.

The reason for the 'lift plate' is so that VERY LITTLE blade height is lost during profiling his blades for FORWARD PITCH. ie. don't have to loose ANY blade height to get the 'forward lean'. The lift plate takes care of that. Much less work for the skate tech. too !!!

I am a HUGE fan of Step Steel. Anxious to see how this steel holds up to 'Step', as far as holding an edge. Is this steel too brittle? I don't pretent to know. But, it sure 'reacts' to my profiling and sharpening wheels very similar as 'Step' steel.

I would 'suggest' that players out there that like a 'forward lean' on their skates might like to try a 'heel lift' of about 1/4 inch. This might just save you the expense of unnecessary profiling. Also, will save LOTS of blade height for savings in money, time and INCREASED on ice performnce.....a significantlylower turning angle, before skate boot contacts ice.

I outfit some of my customers with a 'test wedge' is taped to the bottom (heel portion) of their insole. This allows them to try a wedge or two of various thicknesses while practicing on the ice, before installing a permanent, plastic wedge and re-riveting the rear tower of the holder to the skate's boot. MUCH better than 'grinding' material off of a new or used blade. Blade height makes a huge difference in the tight, LOW turn angles of a player.

Sometimes (many times) a profile is not necessary for the vast majority of players. It sure is a moneymaker for skate shops for the profile work. The steel removed can be equal to a year of sharpening, by even a Master Skate Tech. Again costing money (quicker blade replacement) and performance with decreased blade height.

[OrrSmith 4]

Interesting discussion. Especially about LS4 steel for EDGE holders. This may help you decide. Today, I am working on Aaron Ekblad's Bauer Vapor 1X skates. Replacing his LS3 steels for LS4 steels. He has been using LS3 steels. Both LS3 and LS4 EDGE steel comes from Bauer, laser cut at a 10 foot profile and with a neutral pitch. The LS4 steel is harder (as a poster indicated) than the LS3 steel. It is also 3mm. taller. It is very 'similar' in both hardness and 'blade height' as Step Steel. As mentioned in previous posts, Bauer is not releasing the patent rights of EDGE steel, so Step Steel is not available for EDGE holders. The 'Fusion Steel' is not used at the NHL level because the aluminum component allows the sreel to bends so easily. Equiptment managers would spend WAY too much time trying to straighten those steels. I would not suggest Fusion Steel for anyone playing competitive hockey, especially anyone playing defense. Yes, light in weight, huge in bent blade problems. Not worth the bending problems versus minimal weight gain.

Aaron's steel on both the LS3 and LS4 steels is profiled at an 11 foot RADIUS. The APEX of the profile is 'set-back' slightly. The PITCH of the profile is FORWARD (very slightly). This slight forward PITCH actually 'translates' into an F-2 forward pitch on HIS skates. This is because he uses a 'lift plate' of 1/8th. of an inch between the rear tower of the EDGE holder and the sole of the skate.

The reason for the 'lift plate' is so that VERY LITTLE blade height is lost during profiling his blades for FORWARD PITCH. ie. don't have to loose ANY blade height to get the 'forward lean'. The lift plate takes care of that. Much less work for the skate tech. too !!!

I am a HUGE fan of Step Steel. Anxious to see how this steel holds up to 'Step', as far as holding an edge. Is this steel too brittle? I don't pretent to know. But, it sure 'reacts' to my profiling and sharpening wheels very similar as 'Step' steel.

I would 'suggest' that players out there that like a 'forward lean' on their skates might like to try a 'heel lift' of about 1/4 inch. This might just save you the expense of unnecessary profiling. Also, will save LOTS of blade height for savings in money, time and INCREASED on ice performnce.....a significantlylower turning angle, before skate boot contacts ice.

I outfit some of my customers with a 'test wedge' is taped to the bottom (heel portion) of their insole. This allows them to try a wedge or two of various thicknesses while practicing on the ice, before installing a permanent, plastic wedge and re-riveting the rear tower of the holder to the skate's boot. MUCH better than 'grinding' material off of a new or used blade. Blade height makes a huge difference in the tight, LOW turn angles of a player.

Sometimes (many times) a profile is not necessary for the vast majority of players. It sure is a moneymaker for skate shops for the profile work. The steel removed can be equal to a year of sharpening, by even a Master Skate Tech. Again costing money (quicker blade replacement) and performance with decreased blade height.

Interesting discussion. Especially about LS4 steel for EDGE holders. This may help you decide. Today, I am working on Aaron Ekblad's Bauer Vapor 1X skates. Replacing his LS3 steels for LS4 steels. He has been using LS3 steels. Both LS3 and LS4 EDGE steel comes from Bauer, laser cut at a 10 foot profile and with a neutral pitch. The LS4 steel is harder (as a poster indicated) than the LS3 steel. It is also 3mm. taller. It is very 'similar' in both hardness and 'blade height' as Step Steel. As mentioned in previous posts, Bauer is not releasing the patent rights of EDGE steel, so Step Steel is not available for EDGE holders. The 'Fusion Steel' is not used at the NHL level because the aluminum component allows the sreel to bends so easily. Equiptment managers would spend WAY too much time trying to straighten those steels. I would not suggest Fusion Steel for anyone playing competitive hockey, especially anyone playing defense. Yes, light in weight, huge in bent blade problems. Not worth the bending problems versus minimal weight gain.

Aaron's steel on both the LS3 and LS4 steels is profiled at an 11 foot RADIUS. The APEX of the profile is 'set-back' slightly. The PITCH of the profile is FORWARD (very slightly). This slight forward PITCH actually 'translates' into an F-2 forward pitch on HIS skates. This is because he uses a 'lift plate' of 1/8th. of an inch between the rear tower of the EDGE holder and the sole of the skate.

The reason for the 'lift plate' is so that VERY LITTLE blade height is lost during profiling his blades for FORWARD PITCH. ie. don't have to loose ANY blade height to get the 'forward lean'. The lift plate takes care of that. Much less work for the skate tech. too !!!

I am a HUGE fan of Step Steel. Anxious to see how this steel holds up to 'Step', as far as holding an edge. Is this steel too brittle? I don't pretent to know. But, it sure 'reacts' to my profiling and sharpening wheels very similar as 'Step' steel.

I would 'suggest' that players out there that like a 'forward lean' on their skates might like to try a 'heel lift' of about 1/4 inch. This might just save you the expense of unnecessary profiling. Also, will save LOTS of blade height for savings in money, time and INCREASED on ice performnce.....a significantlylower turning angle, before skate boot contacts ice.

I outfit some of my customers with a 'test wedge' is taped to the bottom (heel portion) of their insole. This allows them to try a wedge or two of various thicknesses while practicing on the ice, before installing a permanent, plastic wedge and re-riveting the rear tower of the holder to the skate's boot. MUCH better than 'grinding' material off of a new or used blade. Blade height makes a huge difference in the tight, LOW turn angles of a player.

Sometimes (many times) a profile is not necessary for the vast majority of players. It sure is a moneymaker for skate shops for the profile work. The steel removed can be equal to a year of sharpening, by even a Master Skate Tech. Again costing money (quicker blade replacement) and performance with decreased blade height.

When my son was last in Supreme skates 3 years ago, we used to get a 1/8" heel lift under his holder to pitch him similar to the Graf skates he used to wear before that. The past two years he had been wearing Makos that already have that extra 1/8" pitch in the heel of the CXN holder. He just tried on skates the past week for the upcoming season and doesn't fit the Mako skate anymore(his foot is now too deep) so we are looking at going back into the Supreme skate for him. I believe that the edge holder is different then the previous Bauer holder and the boot pitch might be different than the Supreme boot of 4 years ago but we are still anticipating some pitch work needed for this year considering he just came from the Mako with a 9/10 profile as well.

The only problem I had with the heel lift under the Supreme boot was that the rivets needed tightened now and then as there was movement created from the heel lift as it loosened with the holder after some wear and tear. I believe that the CXN holder on the Bauer boot probably isn't compatible but could be an option if it would work. It would be nice if Bauer had a second holder option with the 1/8" more heel pitch like the CXN holder. I am looking for some expert advice on this please.

[Asian Tomatoe 30]

The cxn had the same rivet pattern as the ls2 and the ls edge holder so you could swap the holders out for the cxn without re-drilling.