Old School to New School

[BeerLeague1962 8]

Hi Guys,

I've just moved up from my dear old leather CCM supertacks ( bless 💜 !  ) to new CCM Jetspeed 300 following a pro fitting session including foot scan in store. To be fair, the skates fit like a glove but I've lost my forward flex ! ! !  Feels like I'm skating in ski boots ! !  

I've tried missing out the top eyelet but this created wobble and compromised my lateral support. After years of skating in leather and taping up I hoped the new products would give me evening I wanted  😞

Any ideas ? 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

They need time to break in.  Keep working it and bend your knees!!

 

[Monty22 833]

Try skipping the second eyelet from the top and lacing the top one as you normally would.  It will allow forward flex but still provide ankle support. 

[puckpilot 312]

Take a look at the thread in the link above where I have pics on how I tie my skates. I find it gives me plenty of forward flex while still giving me lateral support. 

[g3k 29]

Tying them like this can give you a lot of forward flex while retaining some ankle support.

 

[215BroadStBullies610 435]

Skates have changed so much that they will never feel like what you wore prior. You'll know that your new skates have broken in when you don't think about them while skating. As long as the fit is good, you should be fine.

[BeerLeague1962 8]

Thanks for the tips guys, I'll give them a try. I guess the beauty about our game is that there's always something new to learn . . . . . .   After 30 years in the sport I'd have never thought I'd be beaten by a new pair of skates !  Looks like I need to get some more ice hours under my belt  👍

 

[Davideo 99]

8 hours ago, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

Skates have changed so much that they will never feel like what you wore prior. You'll know that your new skates have broken in when you don't think about them while skating. As long as the fit is good, you should be fine.

Agreed, so much has changed that the feel won't be same. However, my first pair of non-"old school" skates did not fit well, which shouldn't be confused with stiff and unforgiving. I switched for a pair that now fit pretty well, but still have little forward flex. Lace locks, slightly looser up top, and not doing the last lace is what I use now.

[YesLanges 127]

This is the exact reason that I went back to my Langes after trying NXGs and Graf 5035s. I was very pleasantly surprised by the lateral support they provided without any tape; but there was just no working compromise between tying them tight enough for the lateral support I need and leaving them loose enough to be able to bend my knees enough for a full stride or for backward skating. If they were loose enough for me to bend my knees, they didn't provide enough lateral support and vice-versa. I also tried looser lacing with tape, but nothing worked. I was really hoping to benefit from the lightness of new skates but it would probably have taken me most of however many playing years I have left just to skate as well as I do in my old Langes and it made me appreciate their 1970s-era hinge technology even more. (I never tried the box lacing pattern because I didn't know about it, but I doubt it would have helped me because anything that reduced lateral support would probably have hurt my skating too much and I don't have the patience to skate worse for, at the very least, the better part of a year to retrain my muscles to skate with less lateral support.

[Jgscenter 16]

I had the same problem, just don’t lace the top up so tight. 

[BeerLeague1962 8]

7 hours ago, YesLanges said:

This is the exact reason that I went back to my Langes after trying NXGs and Graf 5035s. I was very pleasantly surprised by the lateral support they provided without any tape; but there was just no working compromise between tying them tight enough for the lateral support I need and leaving them loose enough to be able to bend my knees enough for a full stride or for backward skating. If they were loose enough for me to bend my knees, they didn't provide enough lateral support and vice-versa. I also tried looser lacing with tape, but nothing worked. I was really hoping to benefit from the lightness of new skates but it would probably have taken me most of however many playing years I have left just to skate as well as I do in my old Langes and it made me appreciate their 1970s-era hinge technology even more. (I never tried the box lacing pattern because I didn't know about it, but I doubt it would have helped me because anything that reduced lateral support would probably have hurt my skating too much and I don't have the patience to skate worse for, at the very least, the better part of a year to retrain my muscles to skate with less lateral support.

This is exactly my position - I feel it most on backwards crossovers and particularly when I'm executing a forward toe drag and I need to crunch that first crossover to get around the opp player. 

The only reason I upgraded was for skate lightness and stiffness. There's absolutely nothing wrong with my leather supertacks. . . . . . . .and they're not quite on eBay just yet ! !  

I'll try with different lace patterns and give it time. 

[hockeydad3 51]

On 13.1.2018 at 2:33 AM, YesLanges said:

This is the exact reason that I went back to my Langes after trying NXGs and Graf 5035s. I was very pleasantly surprised by the lateral support they provided without any tape; but there was just no working compromise between tying them tight enough for the lateral support I need and leaving them loose enough to be able to bend my knees enough for a full stride or for backward skating. If they were loose enough for me to bend my knees, they didn't provide enough lateral support and vice-versa. I also tried looser lacing with tape, but nothing worked. I was really hoping to benefit from the lightness of new skates but it would probably have taken me most of however many playing years I have left just to skate as well as I do in my old Langes and it made me appreciate their 1970s-era hinge technology even more. (I never tried the box lacing pattern because I didn't know about it, but I doubt it would have helped me because anything that reduced lateral support would probably have hurt my skating too much and I don't have the patience to skate worse for, at the very least, the better part of a year to retrain my muscles to skate with less lateral support.

Well I´mjust a skating-beginner but I´ve made a similar experience with the Graf 5035s as you can see there:

My solution was tying them loose around the ankle and train my ankles, muscles and tendonds to give me lateral support. After about 6 weeks of training (4-5 times a week until i get aching muscles/tendons/feet) i didn´t notice my blades getting dull due to soft ice-konditions. Yesterday i was skating on hard ice. Didn´t have enough support through my dull edges, which made skating quite exhausting and needed exact concentration. Thought i could fix it by tying my skates tight. After 10 meters i had to leave the ice. Couldn´t skate anymore and i was absolutely missing the freedom of movement by my ankles, which is needed for the exact positioning of the edges towards the ice. And of course i couldn´t flex enough for getting a good balance point in my skates. Maybe this type of skates is optimized for a special skating style and is not the optimal skate for a beginner or for other skating styles.

 

[puckpilot 312]

14 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:

Well I´mjust a skating-beginner but I´ve made a similar experiance with the Graf 5035s as you can see there:

 Maybe this type of skates is optimised for a special skating style and is not the optimal skate for a beginner or for other skating styles.

 

Did you try any of the alternative lacing styles like the ones mentioned above? It does help. As a beginner sometimes it's better to walk before you run. 

[chippa13 1844]

A properly fitted skate will provide plenty of support without wrenching on the laces which will also allow forward flex.

[hockeydad3 51]

1 hour ago, puckpilot said:

Did you try any of the alternative lacing styles like the ones mentioned above? It does help. As a beginner sometimes it's better to walk before you run. 

Well, i think that i passed the point of no return. I wouldn´t go back to locked ankles because i start to feel and use my edges. I know more than a little about theory because i have three boys playing Hockey for about 6 Jears.

And beeing a 50 jears old beginner, i have to get confidence, coordination, balance, fitness, and strengh of muscles, tendons and joints before i can learn crossovers, backwardskating, transitions and hard stopps and turns.

[puckpilot 312]

3 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

Well, i think that i passed the point of no return. I wouldn´t go back to locked ankles because i start to feel and use my edges.

I can tell you that the way I tie my skates gives me plenty of freedom with my ankles, but at the same time brings in the sides of the skate for lateral support. Any way, I don't mean to be pushy, Its up to you how you want to proceed with your learning.

[YesLanges 127]

12 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

Well I´mjust a skating-beginner but I´ve made a similar experiance with the Graf 5035s as you can see there:

That's a very rigid boot. In my opinion, it would be very hard to apply Vet88's suggestions to that skate because you pretty much have to leave them pretty loose to start with just to be able to bend your knees. It seems like a boot designed for someone who already has the ability to skate well without much lateral support from the skate, not someone learning to skate or trying to gradually train or retrain muscles to rely less on the support provided by the skate. Put a different way, the tightest that you can tie those skates without limiting your knee bend is probably already too loose for anybody who isn't already a good skater, at least without starting from zero and just sticking it out as long as it takes you to improve very gradually. But I doubt you'll be able to do what Vet88 suggested in that particular boot; you'd need a boot that you can tie tightly for lateral support without limiting your knee bend so you could gradually try going looser and looser. Regardless of what skates you're in, make sure that your knees are bent and your ankle flexed when you tie them and don't inadvertently point your toes in the process of pulling the laces.

I'm a decent, if lazy, skater, but I wouldn't be able to do anything in those boots or if I didn't tape mine the way I do. Not sure if this link will work, but I'm 7 in Gray and it's not slow motion; it's a 50+ division:

https://livebarn.com/en/videoshare?vid=Hm4iB3BoN2YhdWZGO_2FGdAQpQpEIJ7WMDZMueXB_2BjupTqEkfAmMR9RNqzkGnjXWub5F4yuME9AWemcHLWzNpjXFpfBk8ZdTCCvoToQL_2FTOM8jki5ZDZriyApoAmJpk3N2SACflcASf_2FQ0wE9iUDTOtUNnJd_2FNzAqt&dt=2018-01-03T22:29&t=72037&d=30000

I'm really not sure that the dullness of your blades has anything to do with bending your knees. Yes, you need good edges to feel them and rely on them and transition back and forth; but, if anything, dull edges would only make it easier for you to stop on all 4 edges with less lateral ankle support.

 

[hockeydad3 51]

1 hour ago, YesLanges said:

I'm really not sure that the dullness of your blades has anything to do with bending your knees. Yes, you need good edges to feel them and rely on them and transition back and forth; but, if anything, dull edges would only make it easier for you to stop on all 4 edges with less lateral ankle support.

 

I wanted to compensate the dullness and the shaky feeling of my blades by tying tight. Didn´t work because i´m already used to the freedom of movement of tying not tight. Tying loose means that i`m tying the last  three eylets as tight as i could because my forefoot seems to be small, in the midfoot area i´m just pulling my laces until i feel some slight resistance, the third eylet which is in the angle is tied very tight because this one gives me the heel-lock and the upper two are just pulled until i feel some resistance again. Im using Bauer waxed laces. As described above, there is almost no way to tie the ankles in a reproducible medium way.

 

[BeerLeague1962 8]

Another concern about a loose laced top, which admittedly permits forward flex, means that there's a real possibility of a serious ankle injury or even fracture as the wobble / play between the skate and the body allows for you technically to "go over" on your ankle.  This is most at risk when carrying out fast stops, fast transitions and and fast crossovers.

I'm a very experienced and highly competent hockey skater - but an ankle fracture at my age would put me out of the game. 

[hockeydad3 51]

6 minutes ago, BeerLeague1962 said:

Another concern about a loose laced top, which admittedly permits forward flex, means that there's a real possibility of a serious ankle injury or even fracture as the wobble / play between the skate and the body allows for you technically to "go over" on your ankle.  This is most at risk when carrying out fast stops, fast transitions and and fast crossovers.

I'm a very experienced and highly competent hockey skater - but an ankle fracture at my age would put me out of the game. 

I think i have some protection against fracture. Because there is only a little space on the sides of my ankles maybe about 5 mm and my boots are very stiff. And what about speed skating, short track or long distance inliner? They dont have boots, just small shoes. And on tight boots, the fracture can be just on top of the boot.

[YesLanges 127]

32 minutes ago, BeerLeague1962 said:

Another concern about a loose laced top, which admittedly permits forward flex, means that there's a real possibility of a serious ankle injury or even fracture as the wobble / play between the skate and the body allows for you technically to "go over" on your ankle.  This is most at risk when carrying out fast stops, fast transitions and and fast crossovers.

True; but it's something of a trade-off, because there are probably just as many situations where a tight ankle lock exposes your knee to much more serious injuries that might have been no more than a badly-sprained ankle without the tight ankle lock. It's something I'm fully aware of but try not to think about on the ice, having already had a total ACL reconstruction when I was 21.. 

[BeerLeague1962 8]

Research statistics show that over 10% of speed skating injuries are ankle fractures, which is not insignificant in my view. Clearly this is down to the issues we have discussed.. . . . .. . . .  

As an "older" hockey player I don't want to become an injury stat myself ! 

 

 

[BeerLeague1962 8]

5 minutes ago, YesLanges said:

True; but it's something of a trade-off, because there are probably just as many situations where a tight ankle lock exposes your knee to much more serious injuries that might have been no more than a badly-sprained ankle without the tight ankle lock. It's something I'm fully aware of but try not to think about on the ice, having already had a total ACL reconstruction when I was 21.. 

Touch wood, my knees are holding up just fine.  I can't imagine what it would be like to get back on the ice after a full ACL rebuild ?  That must have taken ages to get your confidence back in terms of executing hockey moves etc ?  Great recovery ! 

[BeerLeague1962 8]

The hard shell, hinged Lange skates of the seventies and early eighties properly addressed the issues of forward flex for skaters seeking a non-leather robust skate. 

I wonder why CCM or Bauer haven't explored the concept of hinged construction using modern materials? 

[hockeydad3 51]

Last spring i was millimeters away from an "unhappy triad injury" of my knee while inlinskating with a stiff boot. Skate was "glued" on a rough surface, while my body rotated. Had to stop any sports for about 6 month. I think my inside meniscus has a leason. Now its OK again.