More CCM Eyelet woe

[Vet88 674]

11 hours ago, JGraz15 said:

Piggybacking here: I’ve always used Bauer skates but have been very interested in the RibCor line...how prevalent is this problem? I have heard of this before and is definitely concerning as I’ve never had this issue with any of my Bauer’s. 

It's not that it doesn't happen, it's how fast. My Bauer eyelets on my one100's are slowly giving up, I've had 8 replaced so far. However on Reeboks and CCM's I have replaced eyelets within a year and had to do the whole boot. Like for the player above, I sweat a lot and this destroys shitty eyelets really fast and normal eyelets over time. If you have had your Bauers for years and had no issues you will most likely be ok with CCM or Reeboks for many years. There are eyelets out there that don't react to sweat, Alkali used them in their top of the line inline boots (CA9's) and these eyelets were bulletproof.

[colins 246]

On 12/27/2018 at 9:29 PM, Vet88 said:

It's not that it doesn't happen, it's how fast. My Bauer eyelets on my one100's are slowly giving up, I've had 8 replaced so far. However on Reeboks and CCM's I have replaced eyelets within a year and had to do the whole boot. Like for the player above, I sweat a lot and this destroys shitty eyelets really fast and normal eyelets over time. If you have had your Bauers for years and had no issues you will most likely be ok with CCM or Reeboks for many years. There are eyelets out there that don't react to sweat, Alkali used them in their top of the line inline boots (CA9's) and these eyelets were bulletproof.

 

Vet88, CCM has some real smart guys working on their skate lines. I can't imagine it's a cost or a weight issue using these thin weak eyelets that react to sweat and break down so quickly. To me - the only logical explanation is planned obsolescence. If the eyelets fail after a couple of years (normal user) - great, you need to go out and buy a new pair of the current line of skates. Seems those that sweat more than average get caught in the crossfire - having to replace the eyelets or skates before a single season's use.

What's your take on why CCM sticks with these inferior eyelets on their otherwise great top of the line skates?

colins

[stick9 890]

Maybe they view eyelets like laces, replaceable. It doesn't sound like they save a lot per skate. If you factory in all skates across all lines. Its probably a decent chunk of change for them. 

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

32 minutes ago, colins said:

 

Vet88, CCM has some real smart guys working on their skate lines. I can't imagine it's a cost or a weight issue using these thin weak eyelets that react to sweat and break down so quickly. To me - the only logical explanation is planned obsolescence. If the eyelets fail after a couple of years (normal user) - great, you need to go out and buy a new pair of the current line of skates. Seems those that sweat more than average get caught in the crossfire - having to replace the eyelets or skates before a single season's use.

What's your take on why CCM sticks with these inferior eyelets on their otherwise great top of the line skates?

colins

I'm pretty sure I addressed this.

Notice that the ones that break are the ones that are stamped CCM on them.  Gotta be a pretty soft and/or thin material to be able to stamp them - I used to see them crumble along the sides of the skate over time.  Compare those eyelets to other ones and you'll see the difference.  That's why they fail easier.

They're putting stronger eyelets for the first two holes on top-end skates.  I remember lacing up a pair of RBZs right out of the box and stripping it; looked like a curly fry.

 

 

[Vet88 674]

21 minutes ago, colins said:

 

Vet88, CCM has some real smart guys working on their skate lines. I can't imagine it's a cost or a weight issue using these thin weak eyelets that react to sweat and break down so quickly. To me - the only logical explanation is planned obsolescence. If the eyelets fail after a couple of years (normal user) - great, you need to go out and buy a new pair of the current line of skates. Seems those that sweat more than average get caught in the crossfire - having to replace the eyelets or skates before a single season's use.

What's your take on why CCM sticks with these inferior eyelets on their otherwise great top of the line skates?

colins

JR said it but I also think it is a mix of economics and reality. Those of us that sweat enough to destroy the eyelets are in the minority, goodness knows what the figure is but I'd have a guess that of their overall sales we are in the sub 1% range. So from their point of view, why change when it works for 99%+ of their player base? They take a bit of stick in forums and warranties from those of us that do have issues but they will just ride it out and pocket the difference in cost. If anyone here from a LHS wants to offer some percentage figures of sales to eyelet warranties I'd be very interested to know. Personally I don't mind it, I know what will happen if I ever lace a pair of CCM's or Rbk's up again and I know how to deal with it (skate lace free!). What I do wish is that they would offer something to fix it. they know it happens and they know why and I wish there was a customisation option where I could choose T316 stainless steel eyelets or similar, I would very happily pay a premium for this (and it would give me another reason to go custom CCM).

and whilst they may have some smart people working on their skates they still make really really dumb decisions, screwing up the sizing and releasing a skate that turns the laces pink (you would not believe how much this drives people nuts...)

[colins 246]

31 minutes ago, stick9 said:

Maybe they view eyelets like laces, replaceable. It doesn't sound like they save a lot per skate. If you factory in all skates across all lines. Its probably a decent chunk of change for them. 

 

Despite being what I would consider an above-average consumer in terms of experience with hockey equipment, I've personally spent $1500+ in CCM skates which have had failed eyelets that resulted in the boot being torn because an eyelet failed and the lace pulled through the facing.

So I don't think they consider them replaceable - in one case I took the skate to a reputable shoe/leather repair shop that has been in business for close to a century, and the repair failed after a couple of weeks. In another instance, I took the skate to a reputable hockey shop in Saint John, NB, they installed a new eyelet that repair also failed within two weeks. The two times the repair didn't fail was when I found a small appointment-only boutique repair shop, and the other time when I did the repair myself by replacing all the eyelets with Blademaster brass ones.

Eyelets failing to me is not like breaking a lace - severe structural damage occurs that makes the skate unusable if not addressed quickly and properly (a very small percentage of consumers will be in a position to do so).

In the first instance, CCM replaced the Jetspeed skates even though they were 13 months old. Credit to them. In the second instance, which were for a newer generation skate and not the same Jetspeed replacement pair, CCM refused warranty even though the skates were just 4 months old and had only been used 3 months since purchase (90 day warranty was the reason for the denial of warranty claim and my receipt showed they were ~110 days old).

 

colins 

[peller80 0]

On 12/26/2018 at 6:22 PM, stick9 said:

I saw some 70k's on sideline done up the same exact way. You may want to hit him up for royalties. 

I have new (older, were never used til now) RBK 20K's that have failed after just 10 hours. Can you explain more about your comment? What is sideline? 

[peller80 0]

On 10/20/2018 at 11:53 AM, colins said:

 

Update - a.k.a Necessity is the Mother of Invention.

I bought a cheap $70 grommet press off amazon and ordered some brass eyelets and washers from Blademaster. The only videos I could find on Youtube showed placing a washer on the bottom die in the press, and inserting the eyelet from the top of the eyelet hole. This would result in a poor quality roll of the eyelet barrel, with sharp edges on the inside of the skate. I watched some other videos of this particular machine in use for setting grommets, and it was done in reverse order - barrel and washer inserted from the bottom, and just the washer then placed on the top. The top die of this press is able to roll the small end of the barrel smoothly. Once I figured that out I was really pleased with the results.

I'll have to see how they hold up now to real world abuse. Can't be worse than the CCM stamped aluminum eyelets - and now I can monitor and replace these as needed before any major damage is incurred.

Pic of the machine which I mounted on some 4x4 posts to give me the clearance I needed to place the boot on it:

 

The eyelets and washers from blademaster. Size 265 which are quite long:

Eyelet and washer inserted in the eyelet holes. Another washer goes on top before pressing:

 

Finished eyelets after pressing:

 

And the inside:

 

 

colins

Can you indicate if you chose the 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, or 66 eyelet size?  Do you feel the 265 were TOO long? - Phil 

[colins 246]

13 hours ago, peller80 said:

Can you indicate if you chose the 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, or 66 eyelet size?  Do you feel the 265 were TOO long? - Phil 

 

I purchased the 264 and 265 eyelets, and used mostly 265. I didn't find them too long - in fact, on the 1 eyelet that was torn out that I had re-enforced internally with some plastic and epoxy I would have preferred to have the 266 eyelets for some additional length.

I would say for these CCM skates at least, the 265 is the best choice for straight replacement. For repairs/re-enforcements I'd want some 266 as well. If you have the luxury, order yourself a set of all 3 sizes to have on hand. I saw a note in the Blademaster catalog (or maybe it was online?) that said the 265 was their most popular seller.

colins

[gosinger 122]

Anyone spotted those eyelets (TSE2EW washers, TSE2* eylets) in Europe?

I've only been able to find the 711* type washers and eyelets over here 😕

[strosedefence34 175]

15 hours ago, peller80 said:

I have new (older, were never used til now) RBK 20K's that have failed after just 10 hours. Can you explain more about your comment? What is sideline? 

sideline is referring to the website www.sidelineswap.com it's similar to eBay but its mostly for sports equipment. 

[Vet88 674]

On 1/8/2019 at 11:11 AM, peller80 said:

I have new (older, were never used til now) RBK 20K's that have failed after just 10 hours. Can you explain more about your comment? What is sideline? 

sidelineswap, web site for selling things. I sympathise, I reckon I just looked at my 9ks and then 20ks and the eyelets started to fall out....

[colins 246]

On 12/25/2018 at 3:40 PM, colins said:

 

Followup - only about 10 hours use so far, but the new eyelets are looking good. Real test will come in January when my son resumes his season after a broken ankle suffered in October.

Here's what the eyelets look like after about 10 hours use in the past couple weeks:

 

colins

 

My son got home from the end of his Jr. A season tonight. Unpacked all the gear and had a look at the skates. For some more context, he played 24 games during Jan/Feb/Mar, plus practicing nearly every day. So spitballing, I'd estimate 80+ hours of use in the 3 months since my last update.

The eyelets are holding up great - here's the pics:

 

Overall, I'm extremely pleased with how this has worked out. While there's a bit of structural damage from pucks and bangs, none of the eyelets have moved or appear to be at any risk of pulling out. And now that I've replaced them once, I can easily drill a damaged one out to replace it with a new one.

It seems the material in the Blademaster eyelets are much more immune to his sweat, but there is still an element of corrosion at play as you can see in this closeup:

 

 

But... it's more just on the surface and not affecting the strength of the material yet. I was able to scrape the salty like corrosion/tarnish off with a screwdriver.

I bought him a new pair of FT385's as backup - they haven't been used yet, but before they are, I'm going to drill out all the stamped CCM black eyelets and put in the brass Blademaster ones.

I've seen pictures of custom FT1's with all brass eyelets (same as they use on the retail skates in the top 2 eyelets and the bottom most eyelet). If we ever spring for a full custom pair, I'd definitely go with that option from the factory.

Overall these skates (Jetspeed Control - a SMU based on the FT380 with FT390 and FT1 upgrades) are still in excellent shape. Boot, tendon guards and holders are holding up very well. The rivets are starting to rust a bit , but that's expected with near daily use.

colins

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by colins

[VegasHockey 1280]

May want to look into ProtectaClear. I use this on customers who are rough on steel.

https://www.everbritecoatings.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7

[Vet88 674]

Interesting as I'm one of these customers. Durability? I gather you would liberally paint it on so you get full penetration into the eyelet?

[Sniper9 529]

I don't know why CCM just doesn't use their brass eyelets on all the holes. The edge of one eyelet has a small piece that crumbled off. And I'm pretty sure it came from factory that way since it had no other damage or dents.

Even after a heat mold the stamped eyelets by the forefoot have some space between it and the facing bc of how the facing curved down and wrapped my foot from the bake. I don't think it'll cause me issues bc I don't tie my skates very tight due to the wrap and stiffness of the as1. But just kind of silly that they wouldn't include top end materials for a top end skate. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Sniper9

[colins 246]

7 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

I don't know why CCM just doesn't use their brass eyelets on all the holes. The edge of one eyelet has a small piece that crumbled off. And I'm pretty sure it came from factory that way since it had no other damage or dents.

Even after a heat mold the stamped eyelets by the forefoot have some space between it and the facing bc of how the facing curved down and wrapped my foot from the bake. I don't think it'll cause me issues bc I don't tie my skates very tight due to the wrap and stiffness of the as1. But just kind of silly that they wouldn't include top end materials for a top end skate. 

 

I've thought about this a bit. We know CCM has some excellent resources in their skate department, so it's not a case of them not recognizing the issue. They could correct it easily if they wanted to and avoid the warranty and customer complaints that come from customers like me. But we must be low percentage enough that it's not a business decision they've cared to make.

The reason for them continuing to use the stamped, less durable eyelets must be one or a combination of:

1. Marketing guys wanting the CCM logo on the eyelet. Sounds lame, but branding is obviously a big deal in this industry.

2. Cost (both material cost of the eyelets and the tooling to install them?) & weight savings. Probably a few pennies and a couple grams per boot, but it's a factor in a profit driven business. 

3. Planned obsolescence. The days of a pair of skates lasting a player (who plays frequently) 5+ years are behind us. They make new models every year, and they'd like for players to have a reason to buy the new models every year. Pay the premium for a custom build and you can spend your way around this and request all brass eyelets from the factory. But not for the retail price point.

 

colins

Edited March 28, 2019 by colins

[VegasHockey 1280]

13 hours ago, colins said:

 

I've thought about this a bit. We know CCM has some excellent resources in their skate department, so it's not a case of them not recognizing the issue. They could correct it easily if they wanted to and avoid the warranty and customer complaints that come from customers like me. But we must be low percentage enough that it's not a business decision they've cared to make.

The reason for them continuing to use the stamped, less durable eyelets must be one or a combination of:

1. Marketing guys wanting the CCM logo on the eyelet. Sounds lame, but branding is obviously a big deal in this industry.

2. Cost (both material cost of the eyelets and the tooling to install them?) & weight savings. Probably a few pennies and a couple grams per boot, but it's a factor in a profit driven business. 

3. Planned obsolescence. The days of a pair of skates lasting a player (who plays frequently) 5+ years are behind us. They make new models every year, and they'd like for players to have a reason to buy the new models every year. Pay the premium for a custom build and you can spend your way around this and request all brass eyelets from the factory. But not for the retail price point.

 

colins

Correction, new models every other year for each of the product lines. 

[colins 246]

 

Update - July offseason and my son just participated in an intense 5 day camp that had multiple on ice sessions per day. One of the replacement Blademaster eyelets failed - but luckily, the front washer broke loose, but the barrel and inside washer held up. So it did not pull through the facing to cause a rip.

I inspected the eyelets - corrosion of the brass Blademaster eyelets has set in pretty good and I'm going to do a complete replacement. So from a timeline POV - the replacements lasted from January 3rd 2019 until July 10th. 7 months vs. the 3 months that the stock CCM eyelets lasted. And in those 7 months he was on the ice about twice the frequency of the original 3 months when the CCM eyelets failed. Based on my experience then, I would say that the Blademaster brass eyelets hold up about 3X longer under the same use conditions compared to the stamped CCM eyelets.

I think he's a good candidate for injected eyelets! But he fits in CCM better than Bauer, so that's a problem until CCM releases a skate that uses injected eyelets like Bauer's.

 

colins

Edited July 17, 2019 by colins

[Sniper9 529]

Question regarding the facing where the eyelet tore through. How much composite is actually there holding the eyelet? I'd assume if the facing was made out of the same thermoplastic material as the boot, it would take a lot of effort to deform that material. Id imagine even if you drilled a hole in the material and laced through it with no eyelet it'll be able to hold up? Or is the facing a different/more flexible type of material?

[flip12 714]

13 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

Question regarding the facing where the eyelet tore through. How much composite is actually there holding the eyelet? I'd assume if the facing was made out of the same thermoplastic material as the boot, it would take a lot of effort to deform that material. Id imagine even if you drilled a hole in the material and laced through it with no eyelet it'll be able to hold up? Or is the facing a different/more flexible type of material?

From what I’ve seen, most boots run the quarter material all the way to the end of the facing. It makes sense because that area experiences a lot of force, so it’s usually reinforced with some pleather and the grommets to ensure some longevity. How thick the shell materials are through the facing, I’m not sure. If they stopped the quarter material and stiched pleather to that borderline all along the edge to make a kind of facing extension it would probably be a weak connection and prone to failure.

Edited January 26 by flip12