Holding edge in turns - deeper ROH or longer profile?

[smcgreg 81]

My son is a pretty strong technical skater and has just hit puberty.  He's playing at a high/fast level and has started having problems holding his edge in turns at speed.  He's washing out pretty frequently, certainly more frequently as of late.  As a result, he's started backing off speed in turns, which takes away from his strength.  He's a good skater and needs to be able to exploit that, especially at the level he's at now.  

He asked me about getting a deeper ROH (currently skates on 1/2") and trying a 7/16.  I've been trying to convince him for over a year to go to 5/8 for improved glide, but he really wants good edges.  I've told him most high level skaters typically go shallower hollow and it's probably something other than his ROH.  I argued maybe it might be better to go to a longer profile.  He's currently on a 10 ft profile and I suggested maybe an 11 ft might be better, giving him more steel on the ice in his turns. 

At practice tonight, he washed out 3 times again and he's getting pretty frustrated.  So we need to try something.

SO...... my question to the skate technical gurus, would it make more sense to go to a longer profile rather than a deeper ROH? 

Thanks in advance.

 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

What is worse turning left or right? What kind of akates and steel? 

[smcgreg 81]

2 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

What is worse turning left or right? What kind of akates and steel? 

He says he notices it more turnlng left on outside edge.   That's what I've witnessed a couple times, so, not sure if it actually is worse or not. 

Skates - Makos

Steel - Step V Steel

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Just now, smcgreg said:

He says he notices it more turnlng left on outside edge.   That's what I've witnessed a couple times, so, not sure if it actually is worse or not. 

Skates - Makos

Steel - Step V Steel

Check blade alignment first. Makos probably older boot so could have taken a shot and the blade/holder has a slight bend. If it is an older boot it could be some breakdown.  

If it's more one way that's where to start before changing other things. 

[smcgreg 81]

6 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Check blade alignment first. Makos probably older boot so could have taken a shot and the blade/holder has a slight bend. If it is an older boot it could be some breakdown.  

If it's more one way that's where to start before changing other things. 

That's actually a good thought.  they're actually brand new.  They were old stock I was holding for myself, but he grew to the point they were his size.  The thing is, this problem started after moving to them about 6 weeks ago  That stinks though, no way to warranty them now.  Still, that makes good sense....

Thanks. 

The question is, what to do if that's it?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Take all but the  back 2 rivets out and start over. And I meant warranty on the steel. 

[chippa13 1844]

The Makos have a pretty aggressive forward lean. He could be a little too far over his toes and not getting enough mid blade pressure to get the bite needed to hold the turn. 

[caveman27 208]

14 hours ago, smcgreg said:

My son is a pretty strong technical skater and has just hit puberty.  He's playing at a high/fast level and has started having problems holding his edge in turns at speed.  He's washing out pretty frequently, certainly more frequently as of late.  As a result, he's started backing off speed in turns, which takes away from his strength.  He's a good skater and needs to be able to exploit that, especially at the level he's at now.  

He asked me about getting a deeper ROH (currently skates on 1/2") and trying a 7/16.  I've been trying to convince him for over a year to go to 5/8 for improved glide, but he really wants good edges.  I've told him most high level skaters typically go shallower hollow and it's probably something other than his ROH.  I argued maybe it might be better to go to a longer profile.  He's currently on a 10 ft profile and I suggested maybe an 11 ft might be better, giving him more steel on the ice in his turns. 

At practice tonight, he washed out 3 times again and he's getting pretty frustrated.  So we need to try something.

SO...... my question to the skate technical gurus, would it make more sense to go to a longer profile rather than a deeper ROH? 

Thanks in advance.

Changing ROH is easy. You can always ask the sharpener for a deeper ROH. You could ask for 7/16 or 3/8" and see how that works for a week. 

Changing profile is a big alteration, more time to do it and costs more money. Changing profile may or may not be good as it pertains to his skating style. If he's going deep into turns, and making hard stops and doing aggressive direction changes, going with a longer profile may not be beneficial as it pertains to agility.

Other questions which may help others provide you better suggestions, how tall is he and what is his weight, what's his skate size?  

[kesamj 6]

What boot was he in before the makos??

[smcgreg 81]

5 hours ago, chippa13 said:

The Makos have a pretty aggressive forward lean. He could be a little too far over his toes and not getting enough mid blade pressure to get the bite needed to hold the turn. 

Nope.  I have them profiled -2.  So, a bit more than neutral, but not much. 

Again, he's 14.  Been skating on Makos for 4 years, maybe longer.  This is a recent development.  I thought he was just getting too fast, but the misaligned steel makes some sense.  A tougher problem to fix though... 😞

[smcgreg 81]

29 minutes ago, kesamj said:

What boot was he in before the makos??

4 plus years ago.  I should have mentioned that in my reply to OTG.  Went from 5.5 makos to 6.5 Makos.

But thank you  for the thought.

 

[clarkiestooth 235]

On 10/10/2019 at 10:29 PM, smcgreg said:

My son is a pretty strong technical skater and has just hit puberty.  He's playing at a high/fast level and has started having problems holding his edge in turns at speed.  He's washing out pretty frequently...……..

 

I'm looking at this from a different perspective. I'm an instructor with guys from the Swedish national program. When players "wash out", it comes down to 2 things: core strength and technique. Sharpness/hollow have nothing to do with it. When a kid goes into puberty, core strength/weight ratio goes down, as does flexibility. 

[smcgreg 81]

3 hours ago, clarkiestooth said:

I'm looking at this from a different perspective. I'm an instructor with guys from the Swedish national program. When players "wash out", it comes down to 2 things: core strength and technique. Sharpness/hollow have nothing to do with it. When a kid goes into puberty, core strength/weight ratio goes down, as does flexibility. 

I appreciate that.  We did consider that he needed to go "back to basics".  That being said, I know plenty of very good skaters who have terrible core strength, so, that's not it.  Fliexibility?.... possibly.  He has good flexibility, especially at the ankles where most of this would be relevant.  Still, it's possible he lost some flexibility with rapid growth in the last month or two.  Looking at all options now.  I am thinking 1) OTG suggestion that it is a blade alignment issue.  It started shortly after he went to a new pair of makos.  Everything else was the same except the length of the steel.  It makes logical sense that misalignment could be the culprit.  But... 2) Since he has more speed now due to the length of steel.  He may simply need to work on the basics of his turns at speed.  He has VERY GOOD basics though, so, that's a hard one to swallow. 

Since many elite skaters are on shallower hollows (I'm not elite, but on 3/4 myself), I didn't think that was the explanation, but that's what he has in his head.  Oh well....

Anyway, no clear consensus on this, so, we'll just need to try some things in a systematic way.  No easy fix, I don't think.  Heck, he may simply "grow out of it" as he gets used to his new found speed. 

Thanks for the suggestions.

[GoalForFun 176]

Have a video of him wiping out?

[Vet88 674]

+1 for this, as high speed as possible then slowmo it, this will tell you if it's hardware related or technique. Ideally try to catch him head on or from behind as he wipes out, you are wanting to look at the angles of the feet / knee / hips / core / shoulders / head.

[smcgreg 81]

3 hours ago, Vet88 said:

+1 for this, as high speed as possible then slowmo it, this will tell you if it's hardware related or technique. Ideally try to catch him head on or from behind as he wipes out, you are wanting to look at the angles of the feet / knee / hips / core / shoulders / head.

OK, I'll work on this, BUT.... it's very hard for me to think it's technique.  1) he's a very good technical skater 2) over the summer he does a skills camp every year where he skates 8 hr/week, primarily drills, much of it turning tight turns in the same way he's been washing out recently.  In addition, he was playing games 2-4 times per week.  Never an issue as recently as Aug.  The obvious change that corresponded to the problem is going to the new pair of Makos with longer steel.  Given that he's a good skater who's been skating for 10 yr and quite a lot of technical drill skating over the summer without this issue, it tells me it's not technique, it's the new equipment.  Don't get me wrong, I don't want to diminish the honest attempts to help, but to me the equipment issue is almost too obvious to ignore considering the timing.  The problem is, having dealt with misaligned steel myself in the past, it's a difficult thing to diagnose and a more difficult issue to fix.

Anyway.... in the interim, I'll try and get some video at his next practice.  I hate being "that Dad" who films his kid's practices.  It's bad enough I'm there, let alone filming..... I've never been shy about looking like an ass before though, so, will give it a shot. 

Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[Giltis 117]

On 10/13/2019 at 9:15 PM, smcgreg said:

OK, I'll work on this, BUT.... it's very hard for me to think it's technique.  1) he's a very good technical skater 2) over the summer he does a skills camp every year where he skates 8 hr/week, primarily drills, much of it turning tight turns in the same way he's been washing out recently.  In addition, he was playing games 2-4 times per week.  Never an issue as recently as Aug.  The obvious change that corresponded to the problem is going to the new pair of Makos with longer steel.  Given that he's a good skater who's been skating for 10 yr and quite a lot of technical drill skating over the summer without this issue, it tells me it's not technique, it's the new equipment.  Don't get me wrong, I don't want to diminish the honest attempts to help, but to me the equipment issue is almost too obvious to ignore considering the timing.  The problem is, having dealt with misaligned steel myself in the past, it's a difficult thing to diagnose and a more difficult issue to fix.

Anyway.... in the interim, I'll try and get some video at his next practice.  I hate being "that Dad" who films his kid's practices.  It's bad enough I'm there, let alone filming..... I've never been shy about looking like an ass before though, so, will give it a shot. 

Thanks again for the feedback.

 

I went through a ridiculous growth spurt, from being one of the shortest kid in grade school to being one of the tallest. I can attest that it really messed things up with my coordination.