Quad Profiles Overrated?

[boo10 323]

I know many of the members here absolutely love quad profiles.  I've tried a few different times and I literally can barely skate on them. I've been playing hockey for 45 years and played at a pretty high level, so I'm a decent skater.  I find that I have zero agility on a quad.  One thing that confuses me is the claim that the short front radius allows for tighter turns.  I could see how this would be true for hard cuts when you're moving fast and leaning forward, but I find the long rear radius inhibits tight pivots.  Maybe my skating style is odd, but when I'm trying to turn a very tight circle to shake a forechecker, I lean hard into the heel of my blade.  The long radius makes it much harder for me to make that tight pivot.

Anyone else think single or dual radii are superior to quads?  Am I just weird in my inability to adapt to the quads?

Edited October 12, 2020 by boo10
Edit topic

[colins 246]

6 minutes ago, boo10 said:

Ok, just kidding...I know many of the members here absolutely love quad profiles.  I've tried a few different times and I literally can barely skate on them. I've been playing hockey for 45 years and played at a pretty high level, so I'm a decent skater.  I find that I have zero agility on a quad.  One thing that confuses me is the claim that the short front radius allows for tighter turns.  I could see how this would be true for hard cuts when you're moving fast and leaning forward, but I find the long rear radius inhibits tight pivots.  Maybe my skating style is odd, but when I'm trying to turn a very tight circle to shake a forechecker, I lean hard into the heel of my blade.  The long radius makes it much harder for me to make that tight pivot.

Anyone else think single or dual radii are superior to quads?  Am I just weird in my inability to adapt to the quads?

 

Single, dual, quad... I think some very great players have played the game on all 3 and it didn't matter to them once they adapted to what they had.

It's like sticks, curves and lie... there's no one size fits all. Is Ovi's curve better because of his one timers, or is McDavid's better for his game? Neither because Crosby's nearly flat blade and short stick is superior... for his game.

You can be elite on a 10' single radius or elite on an 0.5 Quad.

Pick your poison and master it. There's no single answer to what is best.

 

 

[VegasHockey 1280]

44 minutes ago, colins said:

 

Single, dual, quad... I think some very great players have played the game on all 3 and it didn't matter to them once they adapted to what they had.

It's like sticks, curves and lie... there's no one size fits all. Is Ovi's curve better because of his one timers, or is McDavid's better for his game? Neither because Crosby's nearly flat blade and short stick is superior... for his game.

You can be elite on a 10' single radius or elite on an 0.5 Quad.

Pick your poison and master it. There's no single answer to what is best.

 

 

Agree with his wholeheartedly. Just like some people can't skate on profiled steel I personally cannot skate on steel that has not been profiled. To each their own. 😀

[boo10 323]

1 hour ago, colins said:

 

Single, dual, quad... I think some very great players have played the game on all 3 and it didn't matter to them once they adapted to what they had.

It's like sticks, curves and lie... there's no one size fits all. Is Ovi's curve better because of his one timers, or is McDavid's better for his game? Neither because Crosby's nearly flat blade and short stick is superior... for his game.

You can be elite on a 10' single radius or elite on an 0.5 Quad.

Pick your poison and master it. There's no single answer to what is best.

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

Agree with his wholeheartedly. Just like some people can't skate on profiled steel I personally cannot skate on steel that has not been profiled. To each their own. 😀

Very good points, and I guess I could have selected a better topic title.  Guess I'm really wondering if there is a flaw in my skating that is stopping me from adapting to the longer rear radius on a quad?  The tight turns claim really does confuse me because like I said, for me, tight pivots are performed on the rear part of the blade.

[puckpilot 312]

IMHO, I think it's overrated in terms of being sold as a magic solution to your skating problems. You hear about people getting a new profile and when you ask why, they just shrug and repeat stuff the marketing brochure promises.

You should have an understanding of what issues you have with your skating and have plan for what you want to achieve with your profile. Simply getting some profile because it promises something special is buying into the marketing. A profile won't make you something you're not, but it can give you a boost in a specific area to help you along. But there's no free lunch. You're always giving up one thing for another. But the hope is you're gaining more in one area than you're giving up in another. 

For example, I have small feet, and I find because of that, I'm a pretty agile, but I'm also little less stable. So, I sacrificed some of that agility for more glide and stability by going to a flatter profile. I don't miss the agility lose, but I do notice the gain in stability. Over time, I've slowly tweaked things to better fit what I want out of my skates. The profile spec is a bit crazy, but it works for me, but I doubt it will work for many others.

So, that probably what's the issue is with you. You were given a solution to a problem you didn't have and it's hindering instead of helping.

Edited October 12, 2020 by puckpilot

[BenBreeg 493]

Nothing is a panacea, but the Q0 solved some issues for me coming from some random profile some guy with a Blademaster put on my skates.  I know there is one study which resulted in 9/10 being the ideal profile (I dont want to misrepresent it, would have to search but one of the members is affiliated I believe) but I don’t think the body of evidence supports broad conclusions.

It could be that being on the wrong profile by a long shot could hamper your skating but once you get in the vicinity then good enough is good enough.  
 

Until you have studies with enough power accounting for all relevant variables then I am not sure it will get to the point of confident conclusions.

One thing I found interesting is that when talking to a guy around here who I was steered to by the best skating instructor in Pgh, who is the go to skate guy for figure skaters, he still just had a 9’ bar, did “forward pitch” as an option, and rounded toe and heel by hand.  Could be he just hasn’t adopted the newer approaches or that the work they do placing the blade on a figure skating boot is seen as the dominant variable.  Just a point of information.

it is not feasible for everyone to work through all the different profiles, and qualitative self-reporting doesn’t tell the whole story.  Some things may correlate, some may not.  Feeling faster may not be faster, feeling more agile may not necessarily show up in the end results, that is why many more structured studies need done IMO.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

55 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

Nothing is a panacea, but the Q0 solved some issues for me coming from some random profile some guy with a Blademaster put on my skates.  I know there is one study which resulted in 9/10 being the ideal profile (I dont want to misrepresent it, would have to search but one of the members is affiliated I believe) but I don’t think the body of evidence supports broad conclusions.

It could be that being on the wrong profile by a long shot could hamper your skating but once you get in the vicinity then good enough is good enough.  
 

Until you have studies with enough power accounting for all relevant variables then I am not sure it will get to the point of confident conclusions.

One thing I found interesting is that when talking to a guy around here who I was steered to by the best skating instructor in Pgh, who is the go to skate guy for figure skaters, he still just had a 9’ bar, did “forward pitch” as an option, and rounded toe and heel by hand.  Could be he just hasn’t adopted the newer approaches or that the work they do placing the blade on a figure skating boot is seen as the dominant variable.  Just a point of information.

it is not feasible for everyone to work through all the different profiles, and qualitative self-reporting doesn’t tell the whole story.  Some things may correlate, some may not.  Feeling faster may not be faster, feeling more agile may not necessarily show up in the end results, that is why many more structured studies need done IMO.

To date the studies done at Brock University on profile, Blade Pitch and Profiled vs not profiled are the most conclusive studies done by the same Professor.  There are no independent studies done on Pro sharp profiles.  Love to see some. 

[boo10 323]

I ended up on a quad zero because I picked up a pair of 3S and figured I would give the "power profile" a shot.  Due to COVID, there's no public skating available, so my only option was to go straight into a 4 on 4 game.  I was fine going in a straight line, but that's about it.  Drove straight to the shop afterwards and had them put a 10' on them.  I may try a 9.5/10.5, but I'm done with quads, (this is my third attempt over the past few years).

On a side note, the 3S are unbelievably comfortable and felt broken in from the first stride in warmup.

[Dnyge79 0]

Ive questioned this myself. Ive played hockey for 32 years, played Michigan high school and club hockey in college, beer leagues since. Never even knew what I was skating on until the last few years other than skate brand. Never messed with profiles, or even ROH. Actually never even paid much attention to stick flex, blade lie, etc, just worried about the curve pattern. Maybe knowing this stuff would have made me better, but i doubt it. The cream always seem to rise to the top regardless of any of this. Anyways, had a profile done a few years ago at Pure hockey. The guy’s profile of choice was 11’ pitched forward. I friggin loved it. However, after so many sharpenings that profile is gone anyways. For that reason I’ve switched to having my skates sharpened solely on a Sparx machine at a local rink. Recently got some Step Steel from Canada for my Bauer 1s and had a prosharp quad profile done out of curiosity. I seemed to have a lot of people tell me I was fast on them, didnt feel a ton different other than not feeling like I could stay really quick in my turns. I actually felt less stable than my previous single radius when doing say cross overs around the circles drill. This was all done after covid so I thought, “maybe I just suck from not skating in a while?” so I bought a second pair of Step Steel for a good deal on sideline swap for the LS1 Edge and had them profiled at 11’ forward pitch. Ive skated on those once and felt like I was really up on my toes. I havent been able to swap them out in the same skate yet but plan on doing that soon. 

[boo10 323]

33 minutes ago, Dnyge79 said:

Ive questioned this myself. Ive played hockey for 32 years, played Michigan high school and club hockey in college, beer leagues since. Never even knew what I was skating on until the last few years other than skate brand. Never messed with profiles, or even ROH. Actually never even paid much attention to stick flex, blade lie, etc, just worried about the curve pattern. Maybe knowing this stuff would have made me better, but i doubt it. The cream always seem to rise to the top regardless of any of this. Anyways, had a profile done a few years ago at Pure hockey. The guy’s profile of choice was 11’ pitched forward. I friggin loved it. However, after so many sharpenings that profile is gone anyways. For that reason I’ve switched to having my skates sharpened solely on a Sparx machine at a local rink. Recently got some Step Steel from Canada for my Bauer 1s and had a prosharp quad profile done out of curiosity. I seemed to have a lot of people tell me I was fast on them, didnt feel a ton different other than not feeling like I could stay really quick in my turns. I actually felt less stable than my previous single radius when doing say cross overs around the circles drill. This was all done after covid so I thought, “maybe I just suck from not skating in a while?” so I bought a second pair of Step Steel for a good deal on sideline swap for the LS1 Edge and had them profiled at 11’ forward pitch. Ive skated on those once and felt like I was really up on my toes. I havent been able to swap them out in the same skate yet but plan on doing that soon. 

Interesting comment on the crossover around the circles; the first time I tried a quad, I had this same exact experience.  I literally almost fell over trying to do that drill.  I also like to practice skating with my laces untied, but couldn't do it with that quad.

Some pretty strong skaters like the quad, so it must work for them, but I just can't adapt to it.

[VegasHockey 1280]

3 hours ago, boo10 said:

Interesting comment on the crossover around the circles; the first time I tried a quad, I had this same exact experience.  I literally almost fell over trying to do that drill.  I also like to practice skating with my laces untied, but couldn't do it with that quad.

Some pretty strong skaters like the quad, so it must work for them, but I just can't adapt to it.

Do you sit low or crouched when skating or do you sit more upright? I noticed those who get quad profiles that sit more upright don't like the quad profiles. 

I personally like longer profiles, on a single radius an 11.5' is pretty ideal for me. 

Tried a few dual profiles. They felt good as long as they were longer radius profiles, for example, 9/12, but anything drastic, such as a 10/20 didn't feel good to me. 

I like triple and quad profiles the most though. Again, longer profiles, ZuperiorM, or the Quad2 are preferred. I have tried to adopt the Quad0 but haven't been successful. The toe is a little too aggressive for me and I don't feel like the longer sections are long enough to provide me the speed and stability I am looking for. 

Many times I think the biggest benefit from profiles is that most templates natively have pitch built into them which forces players into a proper stance and gets their weight over the balls of their feet. Many players have poor hockey posture without being aware of such and profiles help rectify this. I also think skates like TRUE, which also tend to force players into the proper hockey stance, yield the same benefits as well. 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

I found moving to the quad helped me with stability.  The result of that was I could get to a shallower cut and with increased glide and helped me get more on top of the ice.  I wouldn't go back.  Very happy.  Everyone has to find what works for them and that's the whole point of the profiles and the profiling project.  Try stuff, see what works... etc.

 

[Beflar 53]

On 10/11/2020 at 7:09 PM, boo10 said:

 

Very good points, and I guess I could have selected a better topic title.  Guess I'm really wondering if there is a flaw in my skating that is stopping me from adapting to the longer rear radius on a quad?  The tight turns claim really does confuse me because like I said, for me, tight pivots are performed on the rear part of the blade.

Stupid question but I have to ask:  Did you drop the sharpen when going to the Quad because that could be the problem?

 

Went to the Quad 0.5 and they are a huge improvement over the single profile 11' i had.  I had to drop the sharpen from 5/8 to 3/4 thou.

 

The Quad profiles are not overrated IMHO but I only use the QUAD 0.5 which most people never talk about...  I only ever hear about Quad 0,1,2.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Beflar

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

34 minutes ago, Beflar said:

Stupid question but I have to ask:  Did you drop the sharpen when going to the Quad because that could be the problem?

 

Went to the Quad 0.5 and they are a huge improvement over the single profile 11' i had.  I had to drop the sharpen from 5/8 to 3/4 thou.

 

The Quad profiles are not overrated IMHO but I only use the QUAD 0.5 which most people never talk about...  I only ever hear about Quad 0,1,2.

IMO your on the best one that is closest to what is used my most pros.

[Beflar 53]

52 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

IMO your on the best one that is closest to what is used my most pros.

Did pros use wood sticks?  They did.  Do they use them now?  No.  You get my point.

[BenBreeg 493]

Regarding pros, since I would say profiling is really coming into the mainstream discussion (and by mainstream still limited to a minority but more than when some people would have their blades "rockered"), I would think that the majority of players and equipment guys are still somewhat rooted in what they grew up with, but that could be changing, seems like some guys are working through the process but I would imagine it is somewhat determined by their EqM and maybe more driven by skating coaches.

https://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/a-change-in-skate-profile-could-make-elias-pettersson-even-harder-to-handle-next-season-1.23911267

(My question, was 13' ever a "standard" profile?  I always thought in the past TUUK skates were 9' and CCM 11' but of course that was what people would say, I don't know if it has any veracity).

Another aspect that I don't think has been tested is how long before steady state is established?  Having a bunch of skaters swapping out profiles and running some tests may show quantitative performance data for someone who is new to a profile.  What it doesn't show is how performance is affected in the longer term.  There may be a learning period where the results are different.  An expert skater may take time to really learn the nuances of a profile and the ability to wring every last bit of potential performance out of it.  The problem is this is a process that takes a lot of time to collect that kind of data and very structured protocols (with enough participants representing each relevant variable, which also takes time to determine).

I've done a lot of usability testing for medical devices which includes a lot of GUI as well as physical UIs so I'm looking at this more as a geek.  Testing can really validate or invalidate some strongly held assumptions.  Initial performance vs. learned performance, external and internal perception of task performance vs. measured task performance.  Not 100% apples to apples here but certainly some applicable overlap I think.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

On 10/12/2020 at 11:29 AM, Dnyge79 said:

Ive questioned this myself. Ive played hockey for 32 years, played Michigan high school and club hockey in college, beer leagues since. Never even knew what I was skating on until the last few years other than skate brand. Never messed with profiles, or even ROH. Actually never even paid much attention to stick flex, blade lie, etc, just worried about the curve pattern. Maybe knowing this stuff would have made me better, but i doubt it. The cream always seem to rise to the top regardless of any of this. Anyways, had a profile done a few years ago at Pure hockey. The guy’s profile of choice was 11’ pitched forward. I friggin loved it. However, after so many sharpenings that profile is gone anyways. For that reason I’ve switched to having my skates sharpened solely on a Sparx machine at a local rink. Recently got some Step Steel from Canada for my Bauer 1s and had a prosharp quad profile done out of curiosity. I seemed to have a lot of people tell me I was fast on them, didnt feel a ton different other than not feeling like I could stay really quick in my turns. I actually felt less stable than my previous single radius when doing say cross overs around the circles drill. This was all done after covid so I thought, “maybe I just suck from not skating in a while?” so I bought a second pair of Step Steel for a good deal on sideline swap for the LS1 Edge and had them profiled at 11’ forward pitch. Ive skated on those once and felt like I was really up on my toes. I havent been able to swap them out in the same skate yet but plan on doing that soon. 

Which store did you go to and how long ago?  Might’ve been me. 

[Dnyge79 0]

I went to Pro Skate in Canton for the quad back in like February, and Pure Hockey Novi for the 11’ about 1-2 weeks ago

Edited October 14, 2020 by Dnyge79

[boo10 323]

46 minutes ago, Dnyge79 said:

I went to Pro Skate in Canton for the quad back in like February, and Pure Hockey Novi for the 11’ about 1-2 weeks ago

I think @JR Boucicautwas asking what store (and when) made the original 11' recommendation?  You said it was a few years ago?

[Dnyge79 0]

Ahh, if that’s true then sorry. Pure hockey in Novi, Jose I believe was the gentleman’s name. Was probably 2018

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

17 hours ago, Beflar said:

Did pros use wood sticks?  They did.  Do they use them now?  No.  You get my point.

Wow ok. You got me. You also talked to the Pro Sharp guys to find out I was right about the 0.5 Quad. 

Get me point? 

 

[Beflar 53]

5 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Wow ok. You got me. You also talked to the Pro Sharp guys to find out I was right about the 0.5 Quad. 

Get me point? 

 

You know your stuff and I'm not a pro,  not even close.  All I can say is that switching to the QUAD 0.5 makes playing hockey easier for me and therefore I'm having more fun.  I can stay on the ice longer as I don't have to do much to maintain speed.  My crossovers are solid and more powerful.  I feel solid on my feet.  It feels way more natural then balancing on the single profile I had before(11').  I'm just excited about this profile.  I don't remember feeling this way switch from a 13' to a 11' to a 9' etc.

The first time I skated on the QUAD 0.5 I liked it so much that I was literally mad that I wasted my time skating on a single profile for so long.  So maybe it is best not to listen to me cause I'm a total fan boy at this point.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

2 minutes ago, Beflar said:

You know your stuff and I'm not a pro,  not even close.  All I can say is that switching to the QUAD 0.5 makes playing hockey easier for me and therefore I'm having more fun.  I can stay on the ice longer as I don't have to do much to maintain speed.  My crossovers are solid and more powerful.  I feel solid on my feet.  It feels way more natural then balancing on the single profile I had before(11').  I'm just excited about this profile.  I don't remember feeling this way switch from a 13' to a 11' to a 9' etc.

The first time I skated on the QUAD 0.5 I liked it so much that I was literally mad that I wasted my time skating on a single profile for so long.  So maybe it is best not to listen to me cause I'm a total fan boy at this point.

Not sure if you read the previous posts. I was the one that came up with the numbers for 0.5. 

I know it works. BUT... I dont believe the others work as that one does. 

[Beflar 53]

1 hour ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Not sure if you read the previous posts. I was the one that came up with the numbers for 0.5. 

I know it works. BUT... I dont believe the others work as that one does. 

You did a good job my friend.

 

Do you think the others are more gimmicky/different?   

Edited October 15, 2020 by Beflar

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

10 minutes ago, Beflar said:

You did a good job my friend.

 

Do you think the others are more gimmicky?   

No there not gimmicky. But there isn't the independent data to prove that they work better than what is out there.