Holder: size matters?

[SolarWind 23]

Hopefully a quick one gents:

before getting Bauer customs about 10 years ago I spent years in incorrectly sizzled skates (size 9 both feet vs 8.25L/8.5 in customs) so I was used to size 280 holder. Based on the new size Bauer was originally going to put the standard 272 on them but I requested 280 just to keep things the same.

it’s time for new skates now so I’m wondering: are there any actual benefits to having longer holder? Same length of the steel on the ice anyways. 

As opposed to draw back coz the towers are spread further away from the centre of my foot?

If someone could share their experience experimenting with holder sizes (whether it’s upsizing or downsizing) would be much appreciated!

[Miller55 333]

There's no issue with using 280s on an 8.5 skate. There are advantages and disadvantages, but it's mostly preference

[SolarWind 23]

5 hours ago, Miller55 said:

There's no issue with using 280s on an 8.5 skate. There are advantages and disadvantages, but it's mostly preference

That much I know, I’ve used it for the last 10 years lol

just curious what these advantages and disadvantages are.

[Giltis 116]

So at least a few of the Pros and semi-Pros that I play with get "oversize" holders on their skates.

Not sure of the real advantages, but I figure it's mostly about stability and speed.

[puckpilot 312]

On 5/2/2021 at 8:08 PM, SolarWind said:

That much I know, I’ve used it for the last 10 years lol

just curious what these advantages and disadvantages are.

Not a scientific option, but take it for what it's worth. Last time I got new skates, I dropped down a half a size, which dropped me down to a smaller runner. On of the things I noticed was I was a little less stable. At first, I thought was just new skate adjustment. I thought if I just did some edge work etc my feel for the skates would improve and that instability would go away.  After about 6 months of working, things didn't improve much. In fact, it exasperated some of the flaws in my skating, one of which was getting on to my toes too much. I find it incredibly easy to get onto my toes, too easy. I think part of it is because I'm a 175 guy with size 4.5 feet.

That's when I started to look into profiling and in my research, I came upon some things that might explain what was happening. From what I read, the middle part of the runner is pretty much the same on all size runners if they all have the same profile, but for obvious reason, with smaller runners, the transition curving up towards the toe is a more aggressive/steeper transition. So, with the smaller runner, when I shift weight and rock forward or backward, there's a steeper drop, so to speak, which makes things a bit more wobbly.

To address this I went to a larger profile. I settled on a 13' profile for a while, and now, I'm on a 13/26' profile with a negative pitch. For many, that's incredibly flat, but I find these work great.for me.

So going back to what some of the pros and cons are, from my experience, the smaller runner will make it easier to shift your weight onto your toes,with the opposite happening with the larger runner. Going to a larger runner, may allow you to go to a smaller profile and retain the same relative stability.

Any ways, that's my experience. 

 

[stick9 890]

4 hours ago, puckpilot said:

Not a scientific option, but take it for what it's worth. Last time I got new skates, I dropped down a half a size, which dropped me down to a smaller runner. On of the things I noticed was I was a little less stable. At first, I thought was just new skate adjustment. I thought if I just did some edge work etc my feel for the skates would improve and that instability would go away.  After about 6 months of working, things didn't improve much. In fact, it exasperated some of the flaws in my skating, one of which was getting on to my toes too much. I find it incredibly easy to get onto my toes, too easy. I think part of it is because I'm a 175 guy with size 4.5 feet.

That's when I started to look into profiling and in my research, I came upon some things that might explain what was happening. From what I read, the middle part of the runner is pretty much the same on all size runners if they all have the same profile, but for obvious reason, with smaller runners, the transition curving up towards the toe is a more aggressive/steeper transition. So, with the smaller runner, when I shift weight and rock forward or backward, there's a steeper drop, so to speak, which makes things a bit more wobbly.

To address this I went to a larger profile. I settled on a 13' profile for a while, and now, I'm on a 13/26' profile with a negative pitch. For many, that's incredibly flat, but I find these work great.for me.

So going back to what some of the pros and cons are, from my experience, the smaller runner will make it easier to shift your weight onto your toes,with the opposite happening with the larger runner. Going to a larger runner, may allow you to go to a smaller profile and retain the same relative stability.

Any ways, that's my experience. 

 

This was my experience as well. Almost word for word. Eventually I ended up back on the larger holder, 254. I was a lot more comfortable and no longer needed to F with profiles. 

 

 

[jgold47 12]

I've gone oversized before and wound up dropping back.  Theres some downside depending on how the holders are installed, what sizes we're talking about and how you're getting them profiled.  Its not something I would reccomend to someone skating casually. on the upside you've got a larger working blade (vs radius - the everythign else of the skate).  I was primarily fixated on the ratio of the profile I was working with vs. runner length. While legit in concept, it was pointless in practice I suspect.  My holders hung off the ends of my skates, and my pressure points (ball/heel) were not consistent with where the towers for the holders were installed.   It also caused problems with profiling when people were using blade center, holder center, or boot/foot center to set the mid point.  I dont want to start an argument here, but if you're rocking oversized holders (and +1 is probably not a problem, but I was on +1.5 or +2 - original was between sizes) and someone is profiling to holder or steel center, you're not going to love that answer.  Even after I dropped down in size to the normal/+1 size becuase of how they needed to be remounted, they were still not perfect on the boot, but was able to overcome with a good boot/foot center profile. 

Its not something I would ever mess with again, just focus on a good profile to compensate for any difference in size.     

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by jgold47

[flip12 714]

Purely a crazy conjecture.

I wonder if a significant degree of oversized holders at the elite level is rather an artifact of pro players getting smaller sized boots as they graduate into a proper custom fit. If they were used to wearing skates that were a bit too big overall to compensate for a bad fit in width, for example, they'd be used to skating on an oversized holder compared to the size that would come with the skates that are tailored to their feet. In order to maintain the blade-ice feel they're used to, it would be easiest to just install the bigger holder and call it a day. That would be interesting because it would mean instead of using an oversized holder to improve performance, it would rather be about maintaining a system (blade-ice feel) that evolved on a faulty basis (oversized boots).

Edited May 20, 2021 by flip12
Grammar and punctuation by Bulleit.

[eugene8080 0]

On 5/21/2021 at 2:45 AM, flip12 said:

Purely a crazy conjecture.

I wonder if a significant degree of oversized holders at the elite level is rather an artifact of pro players getting smaller sized boots as they graduate into a proper custom fit. If they were used to wearing skates that were a bit too big overall to compensate for a bad fit in width, for example, they'd be used to skating on an oversized holder compared to the size that would come with the skates that are tailored to their feet. In order to maintain the blade-ice feel they're used to, it would be easiest to just install the bigger holder and call it a day. That would be interesting because it would mean instead of using an oversized holder to improve performance, it would rather be about maintaining a system (blade-ice feel) that evolved on a faulty basis (oversized boots).

I actually think that's why. I was on size 7 CCM skates with 263 holders. When I switched to Trues custom skates, they were about 6.5 (based on the foot bed). I used the same 263 holder and steel because it's easier and cheaper to be able to switch the steel between my pairs of skates. The disadvantage, especially for True Custom skates is that there is not much of a flat bottom to mount the holder, that's why the Shift holder is much narrower. If you use an oversized holder, the installer might have trouble riveting the holder on properly. I had some warping issues where the holder was no longer straight enough to hold the steel. the shop had to adjust the installation a few times. This issue might be specific to True skates. 

[flip12 714]

14 hours ago, eugene8080 said:

I actually think that's why. I was on size 7 CCM skates with 263 holders. When I switched to Trues custom skates, they were about 6.5 (based on the foot bed). I used the same 263 holder and steel because it's easier and cheaper to be able to switch the steel between my pairs of skates. The disadvantage, especially for True Custom skates is that there is not much of a flat bottom to mount the holder, that's why the Shift holder is much narrower. If you use an oversized holder, the installer might have trouble riveting the holder on properly. I had some warping issues where the holder was no longer straight enough to hold the steel. the shop had to adjust the installation a few times. This issue might be specific to True skates. 

Now that you mention it, True has had significant problems with straight Shift holder + steel combos. I wonder if the shell's underbelly still causes issues even for the narrower Shift holder.