Skate profiling, and why would it help me?

[bvictor 0]

I just learned about profiling the blades on my skates recently.  I have always skated on the stock profile on my LS1 steel, on Vapor x2.9 skates.  A guy in my adult beginner program (who is admittedly not a beginner, he's a C level player) was telling me about them.

How would I know if a profile would help me out?  I know what I struggle with while skating, but don't understand how to diagnose if it's just a me problem or if a profile change would alleviate some of the issues.

[puckpilot 312]

A profile will help you to get to where you want to be, but it's not magic. In general, it's not going to fix anything. It's just a tool to help you get better. It just makes it easier to do somethings while making it harder to do others. It all about give and take and finding the right give and take for you as an individual. One way to think about it is like car tires. Snow tires will help a person drive in the snow, but they won't save the person from a ditch if they're a reckless/terrible driver. BUT to get that grip in snow, you have to sacrifice durability and performance while driving on dry roads.

IMHO, if you're going to diagnose an issue, first you need to know what the proper technique for of doing something is. Youtube is a great resource. Second, take video of yourself skating and compare yourself in the video to what the proper technique is. Three, identify, the flaws in your technique and practice to correct those flaws. While practising take note of what things are giving you trouble. After a period of time, if you don't see any improvement, figure out an adjustment to your blades that you think will help nudge you in the right direction. Then rinse and repeat. 

This is what I did. I experimented a lot. To get to the profile I'm using now, I practised to get better, and I made maybe a dozen incremental changes to my set up that got me closer and closer to what I needed. All the while, I was practising to address my flaws by improving myself. But always, it took time to evaluate and assess the profile and myself. 

Here's a link about profiling that I found very useful. It goes over profiling, the various profiles available, and what they do.

https://issuu.com/elinmalmsten/docs/script-tryckfilus

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

4 hours ago, puckpilot said:

A profile will help you to get to where you want to be, but it's not magic. In general, it's not going to fix anything. It's just a tool to help you get better. It just makes it easier to do somethings while making it harder to do others. It all about give and take and finding the right give and take for you as an individual. One way to think about it is like car tires. Snow tires will help a person drive in the snow, but they won't save the person from a ditch if they're a reckless/terrible driver. BUT to get that grip in snow, you have to sacrifice durability and performance while driving on dry roads.

IMHO, if you're going to diagnose an issue, first you need to know what the proper technique for of doing something is. Youtube is a great resource. Second, take video of yourself skating and compare yourself in the video to what the proper technique is. Three, identify, the flaws in your technique and practice to correct those flaws. While practising take note of what things are giving you trouble. After a period of time, if you don't see any improvement, figure out an adjustment to your blades that you think will help nudge you in the right direction. Then rinse and repeat. 

This is what I did. I experimented a lot. To get to the profile I'm using now, I practised to get better, and I made maybe a dozen incremental changes to my set up that got me closer and closer to what I needed. All the while, I was practising to address my flaws by improving myself. But always, it took time to evaluate and assess the profile and myself. 

Here's a link about profiling that I found very useful. It goes over profiling, the various profiles available, and what they do.

https://issuu.com/elinmalmsten/docs/script-tryckfilus

All excellent points.

 

Prior to delving into profiling and making adjustments skate fit is the number one thing that needs to be done.

2nd is blade alignment. You could tinker all day on profile with a good fitting boot but have a badly mounted holder that would ruin everything. 

 

See it every day. From NHL guys and NCAA girls that I would work every summer. 

 

 

[Beflar 53]

What is skate profiling

Everything you need to know about skate profiling in the link above.

My story.

I went from a single 11' profile sharpened at 5/8.  To something called a "Quad 0.5" which is a 8'-10'-12'-14' profile sharpened at 3/4.

It was the greatest thing I have ever done to my equipment.  I was faster, more agile and more stable on my skates with this one change.  The difference was night and day.  After all these years it felt like a miracle.  I became a better player over night just by changing profiles.  No joke.  I will never go back to single profile again.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Beflar

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

6 hours ago, Beflar said:

What is skate profiling

Everything you need to know about skate profiling in the link above.

My story.

I went from a single 11' profile sharpened at 5/8.  To something called a "Quad 0.5" which is a 8'-10'-12'-14' profile sharpened at 3/4.

It was the greatest thing I have ever done to my equipment.  I was faster, more agile and more stable on my skates with this one change.  The difference was night and day.  After all these years it felt like a miracle.  I became a better player over night just by changing profiles.  No joke.  I will never go back to single profile again.

 

 

I knew that would work out well.  Not a fan of any of the other Quads.

[Hills 712]

1 hour ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

I knew that would work out well.  Not a fan of any of the other Quads.

What is wrong with a Quad 1 vs a 0.5?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

To much blade removed and to much pitch. imo

[VegasHockey 1280]

9 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

To much blade removed and to much pitch. imo

I personally like to adjust the balance point, pitch, and prefer a more aggressive profile, but understand that individuals will want something more neutral. 

[BenBreeg 493]

It CAN help you.  It could also hurt you if you went with a profile that works against you.  The problem with the current state of profiling IMO is there are too many, not enough empirical data to make recommendations, and definitely few experts available to the end user to help make decisions.  Add that it is extremely expensive to test many profiles and that I think describes the current state.

[Westside 232]

18 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

The problem with the current state of profiling IMO is there are too many, not enough empirical data to make recommendations, and definitely few experts available to the end user to help make decisions.  Add that it is extremely expensive to test many profiles and that I think describes the current state.

Man, THIS!! I was just wrapping my head around quad profiling and now there’s the ellipse. At $50-ish a pop, it is not cheap and I simply ruin my steel if I keep trying out new things. What would be great is if there was a rental program that allowed people to rent different profiles to test them out. More upfront cost for the profiler, but I’d imagine happier customers at the end of the day.

[Beflar 53]

4 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

It CAN help you.  It could also hurt you if you went with a profile that works against you.  The problem with the current state of profiling IMO is there are too many, not enough empirical data to make recommendations, and definitely few experts available to the end user to help make decisions.  Add that it is extremely expensive to test many profiles and that I think describes the current state.

There have been some studies.  I'm sure some people here will be able to point you in the right direction.  

Two things I took away from the one study was: 1) Just because you feel better doesn't mean you are skating better.  Thought that was kinda interesting.  It was why they had to measure change versus feeling it.

2)  I think out of the profiles they tested (they only tested a few) they found the dual profile 9.5'-10.5' to have the best results which is a lot like the Quad 0.5 which is a 8-10-12-14 profile.

[Beflar 53]

4 hours ago, Westside said:

Man, THIS!! I was just wrapping my head around quad profiling and now there’s the ellipse. At $50-ish a pop, it is not cheap and I simply ruin my steel if I keep trying out new things. What would be great is if there was a rental program that allowed people to rent different profiles to test them out. More upfront cost for the profiler, but I’d imagine happier customers at the end of the day.

Comments from another thread talking about profiles etc.  Studies done etc  Good read.

[caveman27 208]

On 7/20/2021 at 3:17 PM, bvictor said:

I just learned about profiling the blades on my skates recently.  I have always skated on the stock profile on my LS1 steel, on Vapor x2.9 skates.  A guy in my adult beginner program (who is admittedly not a beginner, he's a C level player) was telling me about them.

How would I know if a profile would help me out?  I know what I struggle with while skating, but don't understand how to diagnose if it's just a me problem or if a profile change would alleviate some of the issues.

How long have you been skating?

What skating moves do you have difficulty with? Cross overs, hard turns, hockey stop, skating backwards, backward crossovers? Stick is used as balancing crutch and boards are used to stop?

[BenBreeg 493]

3 hours ago, Beflar said:

There have been some studies.  I'm sure some people here will be able to point you in the right direction.  

Two things I took away from the one study was: 1) Just because you feel better doesn't mean you are skating better.  Thought that was kinda interesting.  It was why they had to measure change versus feeling it.

2)  I think out of the profiles they tested (they only tested a few) they found the dual profile 9.5'-10.5' to have the best results which is a lot like the Quad 0.5 which is a 8-10-12-14 profile.

I am aware of the studies and have followed everything everyone here who has experience has posted.  I just don't think they are using data to develop the profiles otherwise they would be able to prescribe them better or present evidence as to why one was better period or in a certain context or for a particular skater.  I haven't found a cohesive explanation.  Think about mom and little Joey who buy new skates and get upsold a profile, they are going to go with whatever is suggested without a clue of what they are buying.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

5 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

I am aware of the studies and have followed everything everyone here who has experience has posted.  I just don't think they are using data to develop the profiles otherwise they would be able to prescribe them better or present evidence as to why one was better period or in a certain context or for a particular skater.  I haven't found a cohesive explanation.  Think about mom and little Joey who buy new skates and get upsold a profile, they are going to go with whatever is suggested without a clue of what they are buying.

I agree 100% 

[Beflar 53]

On 7/21/2021 at 5:26 PM, BenBreeg said:

I am aware of the studies and have followed everything everyone here who has experience has posted.  I just don't think they are using data to develop the profiles otherwise they would be able to prescribe them better or present evidence as to why one was better period or in a certain context or for a particular skater.  I haven't found a cohesive explanation.  Think about mom and little Joey who buy new skates and get upsold a profile, they are going to go with whatever is suggested without a clue of what they are buying.

Lots of different profiles out there.  I think it took the advent of quick removable blade to bring the new profiles to the masses.  All I know is the days of the single profile are numbered.

Best quote I could find on the topic from poster PBH, if people like this are giving new players advice I think profiles have a bright future:

"I'll throw my hat in the ring here as someone who does a ton of profiles and also tests them. Owning a full-service hockey shop gives me the ability to have access to try all different combinations of skates, steel, and profiles. Yes, I am lucky, but this also comes with negatives as well considering I change configurations so often I sometimes physically hurt myself s and it most certainly does take its toll on my skating as well by changing equipment so often. Such is life.....

BTW, when I say I hurt myself testing, I am dead serious. I hurt my back not too long ago, slipped a disc. I was testing an unreleased pair of skates with a very aggressive Quad 0 profile that was applied, it still had the full pitch in it and my back just couldn't handle the strain exerted with being so far forward. My back and core were constantly engaged fighting against the extremely stiff skate and the pitch of the profile and something had to give... Something did. My back. 

Anyway.

Quad 0.5 is a great overall profile and as mentioned, what I typically like to start players on if they are coming from steel that has not been profiled previously. It's also very good for new adult players, as the pitch is something they are not yet accustomed to and can throw off their skating. For the young kids, I prefer to put them on a single longer profile until they develop advanced edge control. This allows them to focus on skating and not worrying about balance as much.

Quad 2 would be my second go-to. The Quad 0/1 removes a very large amount of steel and also add quite a bit of pitch. Once you blend the toe properly many people feel too far forward and they get short choppy strides due to balance issues and such.

There are so many factors I think we can all agree that its truly impossible to say what is the best method and what to use for each player without seeing. Not to mention that some skates have a built-in forward pitch, like TRUE, and many other skates are very neutral. For example, skating on a Quad 0 using the "Pro Sharp recommendation) on my TRUE skates makes me feel unbalanced. When I do Quad 0/1 I tend to remove most of the pitch from the profile to preserve steel and also lessen the forward pitch. I can always add more pitch later but I cannot add steel back once it's been removed. "

Edited September 4, 2021 by Beflar

[bvictor 0]

12 hours ago, caveman27 said:

How long have you been skating?

What skating moves do you have difficulty with? Cross overs, hard turns, hockey stop, skating backwards, backward crossovers? Stick is used as balancing crutch and boards are used to stop?

I've only been skating consistently for about 8 months.  I feel like I picked it up pretty quickly, I went through 'skating for hockey 4' without issues until backwards crossovers - not skate related just didn't get the balance down.

I think I struggle the most with 2 foot hard turns.  I can do forwards crossovers fine but it currently feels like the balance point on my outside edges is quite far back in my boot - like I almost have to lean in to the far outside of my heel.  I don't have any issues stopping on either feet, and while I'm not fast skating backwards I can move fine and typically don't have issues transitioning.  I'm pretty good at stop/start but when it comes to skating with speed I feel slow (might just be age, lol) and have to work really hard to hold speed.

 

From what I understand, something like a 5-11-13 (size 5.5 skate) might help with edge stability while not sacrificing too much agility, but honestly I have no idea and would rather struggle with what I have than blindly change something that might end up being worse.

Edited July 22, 2021 by bvictor

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Anything with an aggressive pitch such as that 5 11 13 is a bad idea when starting.  keep it simple. 9 or 10 single.

The best thing about a profile is that both blades will be the same. start simple get comfy and then change slowly.  

[caveman27 208]

39 minutes ago, bvictor said:

I've only been skating consistently for about 8 months.  I feel like I picked it up pretty quickly, I went through 'skating for hockey 4' without issues until backwards crossovers - not skate related just didn't get the balance down.

I think I struggle the most with 2 foot hard turns.  I can do forwards crossovers fine but it currently feels like the balance point on my outside edges is quite far back in my boot - like I almost have to lean in to the far outside of my heel.  I don't have any issues stopping on either feet, and while I'm not fast skating backwards I can move fine and typically don't have issues transitioning.  I'm pretty good at stop/start but when it comes to skating with speed I feel slow (might just be age, lol) and have to work really hard to hold speed.

 

From what I understand, something like a 5-11-13 (size 5.5 skate) might help with edge stability while not sacrificing too much agility, but honestly I have no idea and would rather struggle with what I have than blindly change something that might end up being worse.

Ok. 

Just from what you've said, it sounds like you want to adjust the pitch of the blade. Changing radius might not help. If you feel like your skates are pushing your body back on the heels, you will want more aggressive pitch.

[bvictor 0]

24 minutes ago, caveman27 said:

Ok. 

Just from what you've said, it sounds like you want to adjust the pitch of the blade. Changing radius might not help. If you feel like your skates are pushing your body back on the heels, you will want more aggressive pitch.

It's actually the opposite - I think it's pushing me too far forward on my toes and I have to really feel like I'm leaning back to be able to catch my outside edges properly.  Do you think that is possible to correct with Vapors, without profiling them?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

2 hours ago, bvictor said:

It's actually the opposite - I think it's pushing me too far forward on my toes and I have to really feel like I'm leaning back to be able to catch my outside edges properly.  Do you think that is possible to correct with Vapors, without profiling them?

Actually why don't you post a picture of the blade then we can see what we are working with instead of guessing you need this or that? 

[VegasHockey 1280]

2 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Anything with an aggressive pitch such as that 5 11 13 is a bad idea when starting.  keep it simple. 9 or 10 single.

The best thing about a profile is that both blades will be the same. start simple get comfy and then change slowly.  

Agreed with this 100%

2 hours ago, bvictor said:

It's actually the opposite - I think it's pushing me too far forward on my toes and I have to really feel like I'm leaning back to be able to catch my outside edges properly.  Do you think that is possible to correct with Vapors, without profiling them?

A longer single or dual radius profile will help with this. I would not do a triple/quad radius at this time. Also, make sure you are getting a good sharpening and the edges are level. The inability for your outside edge to grab properly can also be directly attributed to poor sharpening with uneven edges or improperly honing the steel after sharpening. 

[bvictor 0]

 

3 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Anything with an aggressive pitch such as that 5 11 13 is a bad idea when starting.  keep it simple. 9 or 10 single.

The best thing about a profile is that both blades will be the same. start simple get comfy and then change slowly.  

I'm fairly sure that the LS1 steel I have is stock 9' radius and I get 5/8" hollow.  I'm pretty comfortable on them but no matter how much I practice I haven't been able to improve the things I suck at.

12 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Actually why don't you post a picture of the blade then we can see what we are working with instead of guessing you need this or that? 

Would a picture actually help?  What would you be looking for?  Just curious as I've seen a lot of talk that it's usually impossible to tell radius/profile just by looking?  I would agree that part of the problem is that I don't know precisely what I have (other than it's stock) and don't know exactly what profiling does.  Much ignorance on my part

10 minutes ago, PBH said:

Agreed with this 100%

A longer single or dual radius profile will help with this. I would not do a triple/quad radius at this time. Also, make sure you are getting a good sharpening and the edges are level. The inability for your outside edge to grab properly can also be directly attributed to poor sharpening with uneven edges or improperly honing the steel after sharpening. 

I didn't think as much about a poor sharpening or uneven edges.  But, it's been an issue for a while now and I've had my blades sharpened a few times since I noticed exactly what the problem is.  So unless they are messing up the same way every time, then it's my own lack of function on what I have.

Edited July 22, 2021 by bvictor

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

34 minutes ago, bvictor said:

 

I'm fairly sure that the LS1 steel I have is stock 9' radius and I get 5/8" hollow.  I'm pretty comfortable on them but no matter how much I practice I haven't been able to improve the things I suck at.

Would a picture actually help?  What would you be looking for?  Just curious as I've seen a lot of talk that it's usually impossible to tell radius/profile just by looking?  I would agree that part of the problem is that I don't know precisely what I have (other than it's stock) and don't know exactly what profiling does.  Much ignorance on my part

I didn't think as much about a poor sharpening or uneven edges.  But, it's been an issue for a while now and I've had my blades sharpened a few times since I noticed exactly what the problem is.  So unless they are messing up the same way every time, then it's my own lack of function on what I have.

I need to see the toe and heel blend and I can see what kind of shape the blade is in roughly. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

36 minutes ago, bvictor said:

I didn't think as much about a poor sharpening or uneven edges.  But, it's been an issue for a while now and I've had my blades sharpened a few times since I noticed exactly what the problem is.  So unless they are messing up the same way every time, then it's my own lack of function on what I have.

If you keep going to the same shop then its likely you are getting the same quality every time. If thats good or bad, I am not sure. I havent been able to see your steel. Do you see them check the steel each time its sharpened to make sure their work is level? 

2 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

I need to see the toe and heel blend and I can see what kind of shape the blade is in roughly. 

+1