3D Edge Analysis - sparks vs Blackstone up close

[Paluce 24]

Anyone see this yet…  

https://www.competitiveedgehockey.ca/blank-page 

sparks sharpening vs Blackstone. Super zoomed in! Real Data, not subjective feelings. This is good stuff. 

[stick9 881]

55 minutes ago, Paluce said:

Anyone see this yet…  

https://www.competitiveedgehockey.ca/blank-page 

sparks sharpening vs Blackstone. Super zoomed in! Real Data, not subjective feelings. This is good stuff. 

Not a legit A/B IMO.

We compared a traditional Sparks Machine home sharpener, to a Blackstone Sharpening using a yellow wheel and fine shine oil for it's final pass. 

[stick9 881]

To add. Of you read thru the site. I think you'll find that no one has ever said a Sparx sharpening is better than a really really good hand sharpening. It is however far more consistent and convenient. I was a Blackstone customer for years and currently own a Sparx. I have never once had a bad sharpening on my Sparx, never. I have however received uneven edges, incorrect hollows, burnt edges and ruined profiles from some very highly regarded hand sharpeners.

TBH, I think the market has spoken. 

[Paluce 24]

13 hours ago, stick9 said:

Not a legit A/B IMO.

We compared a traditional Sparks Machine home sharpener, to a Blackstone Sharpening using a yellow wheel and fine shine oil for its final pass. 

Ya I read that… II think the point is how good of an edge can you get in a Blackstone. You can’t use fine shine on a sparks… Blackstone you can.  So ya, totally valid comparison. 

[start_today 757]

1 hour ago, Paluce said:

Ya I read that… II think the point is how good of an edge can you get in a Blackstone. You can’t use fine shine on a sparks… Blackstone you can.  So ya, totally valid comparison. 

No one is disagreeing that “the real data” says you can get a great sharpen on a black stone from a super profesional and experienced sharpener and that it’s noticeably better than a Sparx.  

People are saying having a consistent 95% quality sharpening from Sparx is better than sometimes getting a 99% sharpening from a black stone but also having the very real risk of getting a 50% sharpening. 

I’m not going anywhere where I MIGHT get a really really good sharpening, or, if that person is off for the day, I’ll  get a high 16 year old who is texting with one hand while sharpening and jerking off with the other and only pretends to change the wheel to the hollow I ask for. And frankly, at most places, that second option is what’s standard.

There’s no reason to chase a potentially marginally better sharpening when it’s such a small incremental improvement, over knowing exactly what I’ll get with a Sparx, even if it gets an A- grade instead of an A+. 

It sucks that an automated at-home sharpener is taking away a skill set and job. I really value the relationships I’ve had with skate sharpeners. But, those people I trust are so few and far between.  Way way way too many hockey stores, large and small, have shown they don’t have the dedication or time or money to put toward providing a consistently premium sharpening. 

I live in Boston, which is a HUGE hockey market. There’s no one around who does FBV by hand that I trust. There is a shop who uses Sparx machines and the guy really loves what he does and pays close attention.  I go to him and get a fire sharpening. It’s consistent and feels great. At 43, having transitioned to ice from roller at 28, my NHL window is probably lower than a 50/50 shot at this point, so I’m happy to just have a good sharpening where I know what I’m getting. 

 

 

[shoot_the_goalie 277]

As some said, the benefit of the Sparx is consistency and convenience.  I used to sharpen FBV on a Blackstone prior to owning a Sparx, and I loved it.  Nothing bad to say about it and it definitely produced better/cleaner edges. Blackstone makes a great machine.  BUT, you have to know what you're doing, it takes more time, and yet there were occasions where I would still mess up and have to re-do everything.  Eventually, loading a skate, hitting a button, and walking away and getting a 9 out of 10 was much more worth it to me than spending more time fidgeting with settings, checking marks, etc for a 10 out of 10 sharpen.

Not surprisingly, pro EQMs use both.  Sparx to establish the hollow and then a conventional sharpener to get a final finish.

[stick9 881]

7 hours ago, Paluce said:

Ya I read that… II think the point is how good of an edge can you get in a Blackstone. You can’t use fine shine on a sparks… Blackstone you can.  So ya, totally valid comparison. 

No, it's not. A true comparison would be the Blackstone without the fine shine. Or a Sparx with a final pass by hand using the fine shine. It's beyond silly to argue otherwise. 

End of story.

[VegasHockey 1261]

On 8/26/2023 at 1:41 PM, Paluce said:

Anyone see this yet…  

https://www.competitiveedgehockey.ca/blank-page 

sparks sharpening vs Blackstone. Super zoomed in! Real Data, not subjective feelings. This is good stuff. 

@tydan Have Tyler share with you the results of their testing of Skatescribe vs everything else. It will blow your mind. 

[Paluce 24]

16 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

@tydan Have Tyler share with you the results of their testing of Skatescribe vs everything else. It will blow your mind. 

Exactly!  Their Instagram posts have that data and they have perfect edge’s!  To think this Sparx job is an A- is not correct. It’s more like a D-  let me find it and post that here for people to look at. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Paluce

[mojo122 530]

12 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

@tydan Have Tyler share with you the results of their testing of Skatescribe vs everything else. It will blow your mind. 

Independent or commissioned testing.....makes a difference.

[stick9 881]

So I'll be the one who asks...

I'm a Sparx owner. What's the benefit to me as a player to go back to a manual sharpening?

Not the smoothness and all that blah blah blah. I want someone to tell me the actual on ice benefits gained by going back to having some rando sharpen my skates...

I work in product development engineering. Part of my job is doing competitive eval. Measurements are only a portion of the procedure. Once a product is measured. I set them up in a blind A/B, equal environments and situations. Then we bring in people to experience the products and track their feedback. It's 100% about the users feedback. Just because you can measure something doesn't mean you can experience it. If I were doing these tests. I would have given 50 users two sets of steel. One set with a Blackstone hollow (no sauce), the other a Sparx. Same steel, same hollow, same profile...ie completely blind. This was not the case here. I find the entire discussion irrelevant and the data to be incomplete. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by stick9

[marka 519]

Howdy,

19 hours ago, stick9 said:

No, it's not. A true comparison would be the Blackstone without the fine shine. Or a Sparx with a final pass by hand using the fine shine. It's beyond silly to argue otherwise. 

End of story.

I don't really agree.  And I own and use a Sparx.  When you're comparing the entire process, its totally valid to include things in one process that the other process doesn't allow for.  That's kinda the point of comparing the processes.

Having said that, that 'article' is obviously a bit of a hit piece.  They completely ignore blade profile changes over time, they ignore skill of the operator, and they don't even spell 'Sparx' correctly.

If they really measured anything vs. just doctoring up a pretty picture, it would be interesting to see if using the Wissota Speed Skate after the Sparx helped the edge.  My guess is probably not (vs. just polishing the steel) but ??

Mark

[Paluce 24]

2 hours ago, stick9 said:

So I'll be the one who asks...

I'm a Sparx owner. What's the benefit to me as a player to go back to a manual sharpening?

Not the smoothness and all that blah blah blah. I want someone to tell me the actual on ice benefits gained by going back to having some rando sharpen my skates...

I work in product development engineering. Part of my job is doing competitive eval. Measurements are only a portion of the procedure. Once a product is measured. I set them up in a blind A/B, equal environments and situations. Then we bring in people to experience the products and track their feedback. It's 100% about the users feedback. Just because you can measure something doesn't mean you can experience it. If I were doing these tests. I would have given 50 users two sets of steel. One set with a Blackstone hollow (no sauce), the other a Sparx. Same steel, same hollow, same profile...ie completely blind. This was not the case here. I find the entire discussion irrelevant and the data to be incomplete. 

Ok great, an engineer in product development… That’s me as well.  Let me explain and it will all make sense. 
 

When you look at the images on CompetitiveEdgeHockey.ca you can clearly see the edge from the sparks machine is not “sharp”, it’s rolled over.  That is from the aggressive diamond wheel they use. That’s how the get the speed out of that machine…  The yellow grinding wheel on the Blackstone (or blademaster) has the least amount of heat generation, and combined with fine shine lubricant heat is at a minimum allowing that keen edge.  (In the tool and Mold industry when you finish steel, heat must be kept under control). 
 

So what is the effect…. for the same hollow, the Blackstone sharpening will “feel” sharper. This has been verified by hundreds of people I do skates for.  What does that mean… you can go with a shallower hollow on a Blackstone sharpening to get the same bite on the ice, except it will be much faster! 
 

Anything can feel sharp, but can it feel sharp, and fast, and smooth.   That’s the advantage you get with a perfectly keen edge. That applies to a Skatescribe sharpening, or Blackstone or Blademaster, or Wissota sharpening. Hope that makes sense.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Paluce

[IPv6Freely 2084]

It's honestly hard to take seriously an article that calls it a "Sparks". 

[start_today 757]

8 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

It's honestly hard to take seriously an article that calls it a "Sparks". 

Shout out to anyone from Pittsburgh who doesn’t even blink when things are randomly pluralized or possessive because that’s just how we roll.  

“Yinz got onna ‘em Spark’s machines that do the fires?”

Edited August 29, 2023 by start_today

[IPv6Freely 2084]

On 8/28/2023 at 6:19 PM, start_today said:

Shout out to anyone from Pittsburgh who doesn’t even blink when things are randomly pluralized or possessive because that’s just how we roll.  

“Yinz got onna ‘em Spark’s machines that do the fires?”

I don't wanna hear another word about people in Pittsburgh talking funny.

[mojo122 530]

Folks from Boston don't speak like that.  

[start_today 757]

I grew up in Pittsburgh and moved to Boston. I proudly rep multiple cities with awesome townie accents. 

[Buzz_LightBeer 962]

On 8/28/2023 at 7:24 AM, stick9 said:

So I'll be the one who asks...

I'm a Sparx owner. What's the benefit to me as a player to go back to a manual sharpening?

Personally I think pointing out the differences between the two are kind of moot. I would think 95+ of Sparx users go that route for convenience and cost savings, and until manual sharpening provides a much greater than tangible benefit, there’s no need to switch. The average youth and adult player is likely not to notice a discernible difference between the two. 
I prefer a manual sharpening because I own my own machine and have been doing it for just under 25 years. But the Sparx owners I know have 3-5 players in the house skating in some fashion 7 days a week. Convenience is king. 

[Paluce 24]

I totally hear you and agree with that.  I will say that every single player that I do skates for, from 9 year old’s up to Juniors and old Pro’s instantly say the manual job (with perfect even edges) are the best skates they have ever had. I also hone with ceramic stones, 400, 800, 3000. I have experience sharpening knives and chisels… so that will get you to that level of detail when doing skates 😉.  Anyone looking for insane sharpening lessons, watch Rob Cosman sharpening videos on YouTube. 

[VegasHockey 1261]

Eventually, machines like Skatescribe, Elite, and others will eliminate all hand sharpening. There is just too much variance regardless of the skill level when sharpening by hand. The technology has been around for a very long time but faces issues with cost, mass production, manufacturer support, and consumer adoption. I think we are at an inflection point though where the younger generation of player is more open-minded as opposed to the typical beer league guy in his 40s, which will accelerate the transition. 

That being said, I will not sharpen my skates on a Sparx and instead sharpen them by hand myself. For me, the difference is very noticeable. However, when done on a more professional machine like Skatescribe or Elite, I find it nearly impossible to tell the difference between a good hand sharpen and a machine. 

[stick9 881]

On 8/28/2023 at 11:08 AM, Paluce said:

Ok great, an engineer in product development… That’s me as well.  Let me explain and it will all make sense. 
 

When you look at the images on CompetitiveEdgeHockey.ca you can clearly see the edge from the sparks machine is not “sharp”, it’s rolled over.  That is from the aggressive diamond wheel they use. That’s how the get the speed out of that machine…  The yellow grinding wheel on the Blackstone (or blademaster) has the least amount of heat generation, and combined with fine shine lubricant heat is at a minimum allowing that keen edge.  (In the tool and Mold industry when you finish steel, heat must be kept under control). 
 

So what is the effect…. for the same hollow, the Blackstone sharpening will “feel” sharper. This has been verified by hundreds of people I do skates for.  What does that mean… you can go with a shallower hollow on a Blackstone sharpening to get the same bite on the ice, except it will be much faster! 
 

Anything can feel sharp, but can it feel sharp, and fast, and smooth.   That’s the advantage you get with a perfectly keen edge. That applies to a Skatescribe sharpening, or Blackstone or Blademaster, or Wissota sharpening. Hope that makes sense.

 

Golly Gee, thanks for explaining it to me. Here I thought I was going waste a bunch of time commenting on a bunch of stuff I knew nothing about..................

[shoot_the_goalie 277]

What's the continued point?  I thought the general consensus was that 1) hand sharpening by a skilled sharpener will be a better quality sharpening than a Sparx, and 2) the Sparx advantage is the convenience, speed, and consistency at the sacrifice of quality.

These two things can coexist...and one is not better than the other depending on your circumstances and needs.

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by shoot_the_goalie