VH vs Mako Skates

[SteveM 5]

I know there are extensive threads on both of these skates but could someone who has worn both please compare the two? Please specify if you used the first or second generation Mako.

[mc88 160]

I tried on a Mako 2 skate and currently own custom VHs. The Mako felt nice in the toebox and forefoot area, but I found that the tendon guard was way too flexible and the rim around the back of the ankle felt too low. So when I leaned back against the tendon guard, it felt like the back of my ankle was being pinched by the lower rim (orange arrows point to the general overall area of where of I felt the pinch):

[mojo122 530]

I know there are extensive threads on both of these skates but could someone who has worn both please compare the two? Please specify if you used the first or second generation Mako.

1) What are you skating in now?

2) What specifically do you want to know?

VH buyers are going rave about that skate and Mako users will give high accolades for their skate. The Mako II is more a re-tweaked skate than a revised skate.

[mc88 160]

Bah! I forgot to mention VH skates. While it is a great fitting skate, it too, is not without some problems: Standard tendon guard is too stiff and prone to coming loose after a couple of months, some of the older model skates lack stitching near the toebox which has caused separation in the boot, the standard tongue is a bit too thin and has some sharp edges, and the screw on top of the toecap tends to fall out or come loose after some time. And, of course, you may get a boot that is too small and may need to be punched out... or worse... entirely remade from scratch (haven't heard too many remakes, but I did have to send mine back for a couple punches).

With that said, anything "custom" is going to fit a hell of lot better than a retail boot that attempts to fit everyone's foot with a general shape. Comparing the two is like comparing international football to hockey. Both are separate entities with their respective fans (in this case, I can't really compare custom to retail). While VH offers a generic shaped boot, I'd recommend a Mako over it since fitting for VHs is going to be a hit or miss guess (unless you live in Winnipeg, you can't exactly try on a generic VH skate)! HOWEVER, be careful! Mako can cause rubbing and cause Mako bumps. Look at the Mako thread for more info.

[SteveM 5]

1) What are you skating in now?

2) What specifically do you want to know?

VH buyers are going rave about that skate and Mako users will give high accolades for their skate. The Mako II is more a re-tweaked skate than a revised skate.

I'm currently in APX.

Just curious as to which skates people tend to prefer if they skated in both. People seem to love the concepts of these skates (MLX, Mako, VH) but no one has really compared one to the other. It's always one of these versus a mainstream skate so that's why I asked.

I get that people will lean towards the skate they're in but that's why I specifically asked for opinions from people who have tried both.

[flyers10 57]

I have both. Used Mako I's for little over a year and now using VH. Both form very well and are very comfortable. I got the ankle irritation with my Makos but dealt with it cause were best fitting skate for me. The aggressive pitch takes just a little time to adjust to but a profile can change that easily. The VH has been good so far except for a tendon guard breaking 4 skates in. I could be happy with either skate and it would be hard to go back to a more traditional skate. As they have said to fix the ankle rub issue on mako IIs I might pick up a pair of them to have. For me having the flexibility of a LHS to buy the mako at if have any issues vs having to pay to ship them to Canada is a plus.

[z1ggy 81]

User AffintonDad (spelling?) I know has used Mako's and VH's... I don't think he had Mako IIs. I was PMing him for a long time asking him about his experience with VH because I was/am interested in a pair.

I have not had a pair of VHs yet (obviously) but I can tell you the Mako II fit is the best fitting skate out there right now (for me anyway..). It gave an incredible wrap on my foot, there was literally no negative space at all, it took a few minutes to actually get used to that feeling. I can't comment on the forward pitch though, I only tried these on in store and walked around on them for a bit.

[AfftonDad 88]

I have had the original Makos and I now have the VHs, I loved the feel of both. In fact, I ordered my VHs with a flexible tendon guard and CXN holders/steel to make them feel as much like the Makos as possible.There were two major knocks I had against the Makos... 1) Shot protection and 2) Durability. The VHs are like tanks in terms of shot protection. In my mind the verdict is still out on the durability of the VHs (I've only had them for a few months). My Makos started separating where the composite meets the toe cap. Since the VH is one piece that shouldn't happen with them. However, where the "leather" Vibram covering goes over the composite boot there is a single row of not very tough stitching. I have already popped many stitches from the skates rubbing on things (who knows what, the ice, the boards, sticks, etc.). In a few of those spots the Vibram stuff has pulled away slightly or rubbed/torn off slightly. Scott says the Vibram stuff is glued down, but I have had to tack the extreme edges of it back down with gel superglue in a couple of spots where the stitches are gone to keep things from getting worse. Hopefully the Vibram stuff is just for looks and doesn't really have any function. I don't care (much) how ugly they end up looking.

The VHs are much MUCH stiffer than the Makos. At first I thought that was going to be a problem and it in fact was a problem because I was tying them how I had tied my Makos (relatively tight). Once I figured out that I was tying them too tight, I got back the range of motion and comfort that I had had in the Makos.

I could be happy with either skate and as flyers10 said, I don't think I would ever want to go back to a "traditional" skate. Having said that, if I get 2 years out of the VHs (3 or 4 times a week), I'll get another pair. If not or if they become unavailable, I'll get Makos and grit my teeth when a slapper comes my way.

As far as the Mako blisters being fixed on the 2nd gen skates... My son has the M8s (Mako 2 design) and got the blisters his first day. I had them on my Makos as well. I really think though that it happens because of the open space at the back of the boot and the increased range of motion. (Ankle Moving while Boot Isn't) = (Friction), (Friction) = (Blister). My son had the same problem at the front of his ankle with the 55flex product on EQ50s because of the exact same equations. I don't see how they could change those equations with extra padding. Having said that, I rolled it out a little on my Makos and my skin toughened up at that spot and the problem went away. I wouldn't want Easton to take the features out just to get rid of the spot. In my opinion it is a manageable problem.

[Mimizk 114]

I'm also wondering about their difference in tendon guard.

mc88 wrote about this point as he didn't satisfied but I'm so interested in this very flexible guard and huge cut back of the boots.

Some of my friends who using Mako say that they can't go back to other skates because they love Mako's big excursion of the ankle.

How do you feel about this point?

[AfftonDad 88]

I'm also wondering about their difference in tendon guard.

mc88 wrote about this point as he didn't satisfied but I'm so interested in this very flexible guard and huge cut back of the boots.

Some of my friends who using Mako say that they can't go back to other skates because they love Mako's big excursion of the ankle.

How do you feel about this point?

I think I got a bit longer stride from the Makos because of the extremely flexible tendon guard and cutaway at the back giving me just a little extra on the toe flick. To be honest, I wish the VHs had the same tendon guard and cutaway that the Makos have. Bandy and speed skate boots, which are all about speed, have very low cuffs in the back of the boots and NO tendon guard.

[flip12 699]

I think I got a bit longer stride from the Makos because of the extremely flexible tendon guard and cutaway at the back giving me just a little extra on the toe flick. To be honest, I wish the VHs had the same tendon guard and cutaway that the Makos have. Bandy and speed skate boots, which are all about speed, have very low cuffs in the back of the boots and NO tendon guard.

"No tendon guard" is essentially where I see hockey boots going. The tendon guard should be a hard plastic piece on the back of the shin with a backup gap-covering tendon guard on the skate that should just slide up into the space between the shin's tendon guard and the leg, essentially becoming another tongue, tucked in in the back.

I'm skating on MLX, which is somewhat halfway between the two from what I can tell--stiffness more like a VH boot (makes sense, given SVH was lead on MLX construction), flexible tendon guard and open back throat like the Mako. I was a Graf wearer before this, now I wouldn't wear anything outside of this branch.

From the material differences, I'd probably personally choose VH over Easton for my next pair of skates (I'd check into the possibility of a tongue-like tendon guard) because I prefer the feel of a clarino liner over microfiber liner, etc. I'm not really impressed with the material palette in general on the Mako, and the fit-and-finish of the boots I've seen in person seemed passable, but honestly not much better than that.

[AfftonDad 88]

Don't know if we'll see VHs adopt the VERY flexible tendon guard and cutaway... SVH says (somewhat surprisingly considering he is coming from speed skating) that he prefers the extra support that the stiff tendon guard gives.

[flip12 699]

I know it's crazy. I've thought about it a lot. This is just where I think things are headed. Evolutionarily, it makes sense as the logical conclusion of flexible tendon guards. Protection-wise, it's more robust. The stiffened tendon guard of the mid-late 80's onward has ended up a peacock tail today that can still protect the achilles in a lot of cases, but increasingly, with guys in Bauer skating with an eyelet or two unlaced, you see a huge gap between the guard and the thing it's supposed to be guarding. I even see the gap between hockey skates and speed skates narrowing back to near 1950's levels.

It could be SVH likes the support of the stiffer tendon guard because it makes more sense for getting hockey players into his boots...not to say this is his actual thinking, but just to say that I'm still open to it be a political stance.

Edit: Just wanted to add, looking at VH's goalie skates, the back is pretty much there already. The tendon pillow would just have to extend up high enough to stay tucked inside the shin's tendon shell when the foot gets flexed maximally forward.

[Mimizk 114]

I questioned about tendon guard to Scott.

His thinking about excursion of the ankle is just written on this page.

So he doesn't think such deep cut and too flexible tendon guard as Mako.

But also VH boots have larger angle than the other traditional skates.

VH boots don't accept Mako's tendon guard, also he said.

[AfftonDad 88]

I questioned about tendon guard to Scott.

His thinking about excursion of the ankle is just written on this page.

So he doesn't think such deep cut and too flexible tendon guard as Mako.

But also VH boots have larger angle than the other traditional skates.

VH boots don't accept Mako's tendon guard, also he said.

I didn't mean that I wish that I could put the Mako tendon guard on my VHs... I meant I wish they used the concept. I looked at my VH boots last night and they are cut similar to the Mako (a distinct open V or U shape at the back). So I think if the VHs would just have a TRULY flexible, externally attached, tendon guard, they would be exactly like I wanted them to be.

I had already seen that page and he does have a degree in biomechanics... but I think the fact that the Mako blisters exist probably means that the ankle IS making an excursion into that open space at the back of the boot. Since it CANNOT make that excursion into that area in all other hockey skates, I still believe that there is a little more range of motion in the Makos. Also, the picture in the page looks like the end of the "regular" phase of the push. It doesn't look like the "toe flick" at the end of the push at which point I think the angle probably becomes more extreme. Pause this Laura Stamm video at 3:16.

The extension in the video looks MUCH greater than that shown in Scott's picture.

Don't get me wrong, I still pick my VHs over my Makos. I just wish they had a much more flexible tendon guard than the one that I have.

[Mimizk 114]

AfftonDad,

Don't worry, the sentence as "attach Mako's tendon guard to VH" is just my thinking :)

But I'm interested in this opinion.

I looked at my VH boots last night and they are cut similar to the Mako (a distinct open V or U shape at the back).

I wonder.

I saw the Mako skates yesterday but I felt Mako's cut shape is deeper than VH.

Do you think that the difference in excursion between Mako and VH is just flexibility of tendon guard?

[AfftonDad 88]

Do you think that the difference in excursion between Mako and VH is just flexibility of tendon guard?

Don't know... I'll look at them side by side tonight and take a picture (mine are Mako 1 though). Here is a picture that I took before (I wasn't trying to get that aspect)... you can't really tell much from this picture

http://i.imgur.com/zYFfVnt.jpg

[Larry54 243]

I didn't mean that I wish that I could put the Mako tendon guard on my VHs... I meant I wish they used the concept. I looked at my VH boots last night and they are cut similar to the Mako (a distinct open V or U shape at the back). So I think if the VHs would just have a TRULY flexible, externally attached, tendon guard, they would be exactly like I wanted them to be.

I had already seen that page and he does have a degree in biomechanics... but I think the fact that the Mako blisters exist probably means that the ankle IS making an excursion into that open space at the back of the boot. Since it CANNOT make that excursion into that area in all other hockey skates, I still believe that there is a little more range of motion in the Makos. Also, the picture in the page looks like the end of the "regular" phase of the push. It doesn't look like the "toe flick" at the end of the push at which point I think the angle probably becomes more extreme. Pause this Laura Stamm video at 3:16.

The extension in the video looks MUCH greater than that shown in Scott's picture.

Don't get me wrong, I still pick my VHs over my Makos. I just wish they had a much more flexible tendon guard than the one that I have.

But if you read it properly Scott Van Horne's point is that even if your ankle can extend further, you shouldn't go past 93°. He writes "Research shows that at 93° of ankle extension the push force reaches the end of the blade, at which point the toe of the blades digs into the ice and generates a very large friction force. Therefore, ankle extension beyond 93° will actually lose more energy through ice friction than what is generated through further ankle extension." So maybe he believes that the toe flick or just an excessive application of it will actually drag and slow you down.

[AfftonDad 88]

Yeah I did get that he wasn't saying that the ankle can't go further but rather that it shouldn't go further. I learned to skate without any formal training a long long time ago and my stride developed a toe flick on it's own. I would have a hard time being convinced that it hurts rather than helps. To be honest I don't get the point about the friction. It seems to me with the toe flick the skate is almost supposed to be working like an ice pick at that point for that last little bit of push.

[AfftonDad 88]

Pretty similar back there...

http://i.imgur.com/ATTAWmm.jpg

I think it would be a pretty simple mod to design in a truly flexible, external tendon guard like the Mako. Doubt it will happen though since SVH doesn't think there is any benefit to it (he could be right... it could just be in my head).

[flip12 699]

I think I get what the SVH quote is saying, however, it sounds like it applies more to long distance and long term speed and energy efficiency. Say if you're going top speed and you're going to stay at top speed for a full rink length or more, I can see how going beyond 93-degrees into the flick/pick could have a negative effect on your speed versus energy ratio. But at the start? The friction seems useful. It also seems useful while you're cornering. The first thing I noticed while skating in flexible tendon guard skates was how well I cornered, how smooth the motions were. But since your edges are angled in that case, a toe flick shouldn't drive straight down into the ice as much...it's tough to say any more without reading the actual research.

[AfftonDad 88]

Looking into it on the internet, it seems that the toe flick is something that speed skaters try to rid their strides of and hockey players strive to develop in their strides. In fact it seems that the clap skate is an attempt to reduce the toe flick and to keep the blade gliding/pushing as long as possible (eliminate that friction that SVH speaks of). However, I think there are two different specialized tasks being performed here. I think in speed skating it is important to conserve energy because you are going to be maintaining top end speed for a long time. Plus in speed skating you have that long flat blade that you can keep pushing on for a much longer time in the stride. In hockey on the other hand it is about quick starts and stops followed by quick starts and stops. And you have to make the most out of a relatively short/curved blade. So I think in hockey you are willing to give up a little inefficiency (friction) in order to accelerate quickly and because you will be resting soon. I think the toe flick is most useful during acceleration. I still believe that the toe flick is valid for hockey and consequently I think I would like to go to greater than the 93 degrees that Scott says is optimum.

[louierev07 31]

I may be wrong, but shouldnt the pitch of the boot come into play here as well?

I wear makos, but when I had them repaired, I had to use my vapors. To make it seem more like makos I put cxn holders on. I felt I was very limited by the tendon guard on the vapors with the cxn holder - but I dont think I had this problem before when I was just using them with tuuks.

So yes the mako tendon guard is way more flexible, but you also have a huge forward pitch to offset. Depending on which holder you decide to use on vh skates, you might be fine with the 93 degrees, but Im guessing that 93 degrees seems like it would limit you with the cxn holder.

I might be wrong here, but would just like to see what you guys think about it.

And I love my mako 2 btw. Unless durability becomes a concern, I will be in them for a long time. If for some reason they dont work out I will be going the VH route, but I still want the forward pitch and full range of motion. Are VH skates "low cut" like makos? Has anyone used both? How do they compare?

[AfftonDad 88]

That's a good point about the pitch of the skate probably making the angle more extreme. I put CXNs on mine and went with the flexible tendon guard, but it is NOTHING like the flexibility of the Mako tendon guard.

VHs are low cut. They are not asymmetric like the Mako is. They are similar height to the Makos on the Mako's low side (maybe a tad bit shorter) and much shorter on the Mako's high side.

Here are some side by side pictures of mine in these posts...

http://modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php/topic/63437-vh-footwear/?p=1008810

http://modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php/topic/67004-vh-vs-mako-skates/?p=1013757

[chippa13 1844]

You can see on the lateral view how the tendon guard is angled more forward on the VH than on the Mako.