Forged Composite

[rachael7 1]

Speaking of carbon nanotube technology, what's the deal with these guys:

http://www.blueicehockey.com/products/nano-pro/

Just another relabeled Chinese stick or what?

[interpathway 9]

Speaking of carbon nanotube technology, what's the deal with these guys:

http://www.blueicehockey.com/products/nano-pro/

Just another relabeled Chinese stick or what?

Anyone willing to try out the P.3 and report back?

[Ogie Oglethorpe 14]

I've never heard of Blue Hockey....

However, for those old schoolers with a cult follower type heart, the legendary Busch (the first true One Piece that also had great puck feel and tank-like durability) has a Nano product now: http://www.busch-hockey.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=prodotti.3

I wonder what these things are weighing these days? Seem to recall the "laser" model was around 480-500 grams, Gold Line 520? I wonder if they've done anything in regards to taper or engineered kick point? For the original innovators of the concept, they fell out of favor for not developing science beyond the engineering process.

[dw91 0]

The random arrangement of the fibers with forged composite makes sense to me as far as increasing durability. It would be stronger for impacts that weren't perfectly perpendicular to the shaft, which seems to be how most sticks are tested from the videos I have seen. Usually the stick is flat on a platform, and a weight is dropped on it. That isn't how slashes or puck impacts happen though. Then again, I'm not an engineer, yet.

[Chadd 916]

The random arrangement of the fibers with forged composite makes sense to me as far as increasing durability. It would be stronger for impacts that weren't perfectly perpendicular to the shaft, which seems to be how most sticks are tested from the videos I have seen. Usually the stick is flat on a platform, and a weight is dropped on it. That isn't how slashes or puck impacts happen though. Then again, I'm not an engineer, yet.

It will be interesting to see how they control flex with the random dispersion of the fiber.

[CAmmon 2]

I think the success of the One95 showed that sticks have hit a really good point in terms of technology, weight, durability, and feel. My guess is that the next "advancement" would have to be a way to manufacture them cheaper to start lowering the price points...I'm not sure how successful the top end sticks well over $200 USD are going to be.

Even if they find a way to do it cheaper, they see that consumers will pay 200, and they will not pass on the savings to us.

[interpathway 9]

Even if they find a way to do it cheaper, they see that consumers will pay 200, and they will not pass on the savings to us.

If that were the case in any manufacturing process then HDTVs, Bluray players, Compact Discs, VHS, etc. would have never come down to reasonable selling points either.

Difference is, these mediums' price points reflected the easier manufacturing process, and in turn, became household items.

The same will follow for OPSs if this does in fact create an equal if not better product at less cost.

[CAmmon 2]

It may be coincidence but I thought the price drops were all related to the recession.

[Jason 65]

Even if they find a way to do it cheaper, they see that consumers will pay 200, and they will not pass on the savings to us.

I agree with CAmmon. OPS's will never be "household" items used by the vast majority of people, so the prices should remain (at best) stagnant and the manufacturers will see increased profits. The one benefit to the consumer may be increased performance.

[Chadd 916]

If that were the case in any manufacturing process then HDTVs, Bluray players, Compact Discs, VHS, etc. would have never come down to reasonable selling points either.

Difference is, these mediums' price points reflected the easier manufacturing process, and in turn, became household items.

The same will follow for OPSs if this does in fact create an equal if not better product at less cost.

They aren't going to sell more sticks because they are cheaper, unlike CD, DVD, HDTVs, etc... It's not a valid comparison.

[IceBuckeye88 0]

From Car and Driver: "Forged composite forgoes the weave and instead uses a random arrangement of loose fibers mixed with resin and forms them in a heated press at high pressure. The resulting composite is strong in all directions without the additional cost and complexity of adding multiple layers of material, as must be done with woven carbon fiber."

Again, I don't know if this is something that could ever be applied to sticks, but fact that it's cheaper and stronger makes it sound promising.

It sounds like something that will be applied to hockey. Since most sticks are made overseas, I wonder if the manufacturers even do their own R&D anymore. My impression is the factory's do the R&D and then relay that to the manufacturers, and they design their products from the factories capabilities. In short, the manufacturers are more about marketing and designing their products but, but don't make them. Of course, I could be wrong, but thats my impression of how the industry works.

[flyweightphantom 1]

Maybe i'm nuts but i thought the CNT had great durability.

[dw91 0]

It will be interesting to see how they control flex with the random dispersion of the fiber.

Hell of a point there, maybe thats where they'll run into problems. If forged composite is just plain old stiff, then that won't do much good in a hockey stick.

[jsykes 35]

I dont think this tech will be able to be used in sticks in any way due to the forging process.

Forging is a press. You take a hunk of material and then you have a press designed for a specific shape. Its then pressed into the shape you're looking for under extremely high pressure and many times, heat. This creates a denser material than you start with and creates something very solid.

So the carbon material used is a hunk of the carbon fibers and the resin that will bind it. It gets put into a mold that is then pressed down to form the solid piece. This process does not lend itself to making a hollow shaft.

It might work for solid blades, or toe caps, or even boot uppers, but hollow shafts is not likely a product that lends itself to this process.

[bob_flip 0]

As far as I know TPS have used amorphous carbon in the XN10 stick.

Is the forged the same technology or no?

[interpathway 9]

They aren't going to sell more sticks because they are cheaper, unlike CD, DVD, HDTVs, etc... It's not a valid comparison.

As a consumer, I can guarantee you they will sell more. I purchase a high end OPS two or three times a year. When the price tag isn't north of $200 I am more than willing to try, experiment, and change a bit more. Gladly.

Clearly OPSs will never be a household item, but lowering the cost will help nullify the "I can't afford them/Too expensive to experiment with/whatever have you" arguments that have kept some people using wood sticks years after the introduction of this technology.

The lower the prices go, the higher percentage of players will be using the sticks, it's a simple cost-benefit analysis that I think more players will be able to justify when the price tag is $150 against $220.

Yes, I know high end OPS can be found at $150, but those usually aren't the ones that sit prominently in LHS racks that get perused by Mom/Dad, the casual player.

[Ogie Oglethorpe 14]

Basic economics also tells us that the best way to control supply and demand factors is thru price. In other words, if you have a scarce resource or limited production capability, you control the amount of demand by varying the price. If you have a crap load (that's a technical accounting term - sort of like "bushell"), you lower the price and, the theory is, more people will buy the product. If you have more people wanting the product than you can produce, you raise the price until such a time as supply meets demand.

Thus, generally speaking, if you figure a way to lower the price, one would figure, you would increase demand.

This, of course, doesn't take into account exclusivity (i.e., some people want to buy the most expensive because not everyone else has one) or the perception (real or imagined) that the more you spend the better the product.

Furthermore, if the product was more durable, one would have to factor in lost sales (long term) as they wouldn't need to be replaced as often (example: the original light bulb built still works today, thus, the technology exists to make bulbs last far, far longer than they do today. Why don't they do this (as it's just the filament)? Because if it lasted 10 years instead of 10 months, it'd kill sales).

All that said, I would think that if this did produce a product that is just as good for a lower price, they'd sell more.

I do have to mimic what others said earlier, however; if the weave is completely random, how can you produce consistent flex and kick point qualities so that each stick feels and behaves exactly the same?

[interpathway 9]

Regarding the cost of these still hypothetical sticks, we also have to realize that carbon forging machining/machines are likely incredibly expensive. Considering the tolerances that need to be adhered to when producing a high quality OPS, I can't imagine companies picking up the machining technology without a large chunk of change.

[IceBuckeye88 0]

Speaking from personal experience, you are wrong.

Are you sure? I know a person who owns one of the smaller companies. Thats exactly how they get their sticks. Not only do they buy from the same factories that produce for the big players, but they get the same sticks with their own graphics. However, it does appear their sticks are at least a year behind, but they are duplicates of a competitors stick (straight from the owners mouth).

[dsjunior1388 81]

As a consumer, I can guarantee you they will sell more. I purchase a high end OPS two or three times a year. When the price tag isn't north of $200 I am more than willing to try, experiment, and change a bit more. Gladly.

As usual, MSHers are the exception to this rule. A vast majority of hockey players use a stick until it breaks or wears out and then buy a new one. Stick companies can't depend on the buying power of the collector, or the guy whos willing to buy several sticks for the sake of variety, because there just arent enough of them to make it work.

[zebra_steve 11]

I look at the OPS this way..... When I played I would go through a dozen or two KOHO Pro Fibers a season - often retiring a stick to practice once the blade went "soft". In 1980's dollars that would be about $400 a season on sticks for 2 dozen. In 2009 dollars that's ~$780. The KOHO's were considered one of the top end glass lam sticks at the time so the likely comparison would be the top end OPS of today. The question then becomes could I go the full season at Midget\JR\College level play and practice on 4 top end OPS? And we're not going to consider the loss in longevity of the KOHO blades due to torch and bend customization of the curve. I could have maybe gone half as many sticks if I would have done a custom pattern back then.

[bostonjuniorblackhawks 1]

Are you sure? I know a person who owns one of the smaller companies. Thats exactly how they get their sticks. Not only do they buy from the same factories that produce for the big players, but they get the same sticks with their own graphics. However, it does appear their sticks are at least a year behind, but they are duplicates of a competitors stick (straight from the owners mouth).

I'd be inclined to go with Sublitwill on this one considering where he's worked and how well he knows the industry. Plus there's people like Joe that run a smaller company. Not a put down to other companies like Base, combat, battle axe, etc. I'm just saying some people like to run their mouths

[Chadd 916]

Are you sure? I know a person who owns one of the smaller companies. Thats exactly how they get their sticks. Not only do they buy from the same factories that produce for the big players, but they get the same sticks with their own graphics. However, it does appear their sticks are at least a year behind, but they are duplicates of a competitors stick (straight from the owners mouth).

First of all, every factory in China will tell you they produce sticks for Bauer. I've exchanged emails with a few and they all tell the same lies. In most cases the sticks they sell as being "the same as the major brands" is nothing of the sort. It's funny at the trade show to actually ask the guys selling brands you've never heard of what factory they use. Most of the guys at the small companies can't tell that the sticks aren't what they've been told they are.

The lack of R&D by the small guys is the major difference between the big names and the small guys.

Oh, by the way, don't question Sublitwill when it comes to manufacturing. He knows far more than just about anyone on this site, some of us have learned a lot from him over the years.

[Drewhunz 3]

Many of the small guys are more or less graphic designers.

[zebra_steve 11]

Technology has come so far that the performance of the sticks is far better than what it was back in the 80s. Also, the demands that we have for the sticks we use are much different than yesterday.

To answer your question, no, you probably wouldn't be able to play and practice a full season on four high end OPS.

Dang ~ And I almost had myself convinced that they were actually worth the extra money...... I readily admit that I'm a dinosaur. I went from the KOHO's to the Easton Gold Aluminum shafts to the original brown Easton Composite shafts and then tried a bunch of different brands\models of composite shafts. Back then always thought that a composite replacement blade would be great in them just for the stiffer blade if nothing else. Tried one (composite blade) when they were first available and loved them but hated that the patterns were nothing near what I liked and I could not bend them. And the lack of a suitable pattern has also been a major sticking point for me on all of the OPS's. I will say that I love the feel and stick handling from the Vapor XXXX I have (converted to 2 pc tapered stick with an Easton SE16 wood blade after the original owner broke the blade and threw it in the trash).

Maybe you can answer me this.... does anyone make a composite blade that is a copy of the Montreal Euro Pattern or the other pattern that Montreal had that was similar but had a wider toe - forget the name of it.