strosedefence34
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Posts posted by strosedefence34
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@CigarScott have you tried re-baking with those silicone sleeves? I recently within the last year have developed the same issue with my skates (Supreme 190). I thought about trying to bake the skates while wearing them just haven't yet. I will say that one day I lost the one sleeve and I had to skate without it and the issue seemed to be okay on my left foot where I have been wearing the sleeve for a year. It's possible that area of the skate stretched out by wearing the sleeve for a year again I haven't tried not wearing the sleeve again maybe one skate this week.
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1 minute ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:Ask CCM and Bauer how many pairs they will make to get it right. I'm not arguing or getting in a War. Just stating facts from knowledge of fitting True Graf Bauer and CCM customs.
Of course it should be fixed and it will. All I said was the shop in my mind did not communicate correctly the information.
Nobody is saying they shouldn't make it right And yes this has taken to long. But knowing the process more thoroughly than most I know there is shop error here.
True has stood behind and has made 2 or 3 skates now. I'm betting it's now 3 or 4 in the process and they will get it right.
My thing is though in your expert opinion which I value you certainly have the credentials to back it up (close to 1,000 fittings for True) if the shop is not communicating the information to True correctly. Why isn't True reaching out to the shop and saying "hey guys we certainly have an issue here. What is wrong with the skates what needs to be done to make the customer happy?" Maybe the shop doesn't know the proper way to communicate the issues. This could be the first time its ever happen. Again we don't have all of the info about the shop and how many pairs of True skates they have sent out. This could be the first pair. I know from asking the manager at the local Pure hockey they have only done 2 pairs so they don't have the same experience as you do with True. This could be a learning experience for the shop.
I look at it like this. Let's say this is the first pair of True skates this shop has ever put out. They have never put out any other custom options, but they have the resources for CCM and Bauer to do custom skates. They are having such a tough time getting this pair of skates right that another person walks in off the street and wants customs as a shop I'd be pushing the other two because I had such an issue with True the first time. True could lose customers from this shop over this. Regardless of who has the better skate and the best process. Again will the sales of one shop really effect True. Doubtful, but something to think about from a customer service standpoint.
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9 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:We are putting this on the shop because it is up to them to relay the information. It does not matter if its bauer's or ccms I have worse problems with my customers that have gotten those skates.
1. CCM. The shop measured or marked down the wrong feet. Left is bigger by one size. But they marked it as right.
The skates were 3 weeks to make and came in opposite. This order was done 1st week of August. The person wearing it plays AAA on a top team. They were given a mismatched pair to wear till the new ones were ready. The last week of October they arrived. 9 weeks later. The shop was to blame obviously but CCM took 9 weeks to rectify!!!! And trust me this customer reemed everyone out and still went at a snail pace.
2. Bauer. Top player in the area. Has been in True prior. Gets custom Bauer that are an inch to long and half an inch to wide. Wears them gets a callus on the bone on the side of the foot can't skate for a week. Selected to All Star game and cant play. Draft Year!!!! I fix his True skates had a ripped eyelet and scores an end to end goal on a wasp around. Asks for his money back in sticks or gear. Told no chance.
Store isnt doing anything to help.
I could go on and on. Or I could go into details of the 10 out of 900 True clients of all but 3 were unsatisfied. And those 3 I sold the skates and gave them Store credit for sharpening on the Difference. That's how to solve this issue.
It's up to the retailer to step in and tell the factory were the errors are and what needs correction. If they relay it correctly SMU should be happy.
I'm not going to get into a keyboard war with you but at this point, it's on True. After @smu got his first pair of skates back and they were horribly wrong he was rescanned and the shop added notes to the second scan about what was wrong with his skates. Yet the skates came back stuffed in the toe cap and the sides squished in to make them narrower. True seemed to completely ignore the notes that were put in. The skates were sent back they made a new pair still not the right size still disregarding any notes put in by the shop after the second scan. It's great that your shop has had such great success with True customs. I know people who have had great success with CCM and Bauer customs. No one in my area skates on Trues. The only experience I have with them is this thread plus seeing the display model at Pure hockey.
If there is a disconnect between a 3D scan of a customers foot and the shop and the company the company needs to stand behind their product and make it right.
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On 12/3/2018 at 12:02 AM, oldtrainerguy28 said:Sorry but I have been dealing with them long enough to know there is more going on here. As much as Rob took responsibility I think it's a scan plus shop information issue and always has been. I have never had these many issues in 900 plus fits. The only one was a self induced issue. Not a factory one. All others have been solved on 2nd fits.
On 12/3/2018 at 8:55 PM, Nicholas G said:Have to agree with this as well. We have done plenty of fittings and also have never had this significant of a problem.
I don't get how you guys are putting this entirely on the shop? If he has now had 2 pairs of skates made for him that are wrong why is someone from True not contacting the shop to try and get to the bottom of this? To me, there is clearly something different between the scan and the player's foot. I'm not saying True is closing their eyes and making the skates, but if they are having this much of an issue with this particular skate there is an issue. Makes me wonder how many pairs of True skates this shop has put out that were wrong and the other skaters thought they fit fine or good enough. It's great that your shops have had almost zero returns of skates, but something is going on at this shop that True should try and resolve. If I was @smu i'd move on from True now with Bauer and CCM offering customs based off of 3D scans. The shop should just allow him to put the money he has invested in these skate to something else. Like @Vet88 said if this was a retail skate that a shop just said here this is the closest we have it will work that's on the shop.
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20 hours ago, Leif said:Thanks. I've not seen a hand done rivet before. Out of interest, have you any idea where the non custom high end Bauer skates (2s Pro, 1x, 1n) are made?
1 hour ago, stick9 said:China
I checked the tag on my 190s from the MX3 error and it said made in Thailand. I wonder if they changed since then or maybe the top of the line skates are made in a different factory.
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5 minutes ago, Leif said:Thanks. I've not seen a hand done rivet before. Out of interest, have you any idea where the non custom high end Bauer skates (2s Pro, 1x, 1n) are made?
No, I have no clue. I am sure someone knows.
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@Leif The picture is fine. The copper looks good to me. That's how they come from my LHS when they are replaced. Looks hand done opposed to a machine.
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9 hours ago, Leif said:I noticed that from outside each rear copper rivet at the back of the skate looks like a copper washer place over a piece of straight copper bar that protrudes 4 mm or so. Am I right to think that the ends should have been squashed against the copper washer, and hence this is a manufacturing flaw? That is what I see online, and on my old skates. I'm sure I can get the LHS to sort this out as they re-rivet and replace holders, it is a bit odd though. And should this be rectified ASAP given that if I am right, the rivets have little strength/grip?
Added: I sent an email to the LHS and Mark emailed back a picture of a good copper rivet on a custom skate that looks like mine. Apparently in the Far East they tend to really flatten copper rivets, but not in Europe and North America.
Have any pictures?
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4 hours ago, Leif said:Vapor failed the pencil test, but Bauer say that is only a guide, the scanner is more accurate. What did concern me was the toes in Vapors. I'm not sure what Bauer do for the toe box, whether they use a given toe box for a given model and size, or if they select according to the scan. Certainly these feel a tad longer than the stock skates I tried on, so I suspect the toe box is chosen to suit the scan.
Yeah I’m sure if I went with custom vapors the depth and width issues would be adjusted. I believe that the first scan for me was wrong and I haven’t gone back to be rescanned. Mostly because I am not in the market for new skates. Maybe I’m like you and could fit into both skates. I get okay heel lock in my retail supremes and only have one hotspot that just developed within the last year right on both of my big toes where the toe cap meets the boot. I wear a gel pad to fix that.
Glad to hear you like your skates! Keep us updated after you skate in them.
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32 minutes ago, Leif said:My current/old skates are Bauer Supreme S160 7EE which were the best fit of the three models, didn’t use a scanner. This time round the scanner said stock Vapor 7EE was best but Supreme 7EE okay too. Custom was 6.5EE and 6.75EE Vapor. I tried on 6.5EE Vapor but toes felt cramped. Would custom Vapor have been as good or better? No idea, but Supreme is fine too.
Honestly no clue if custom vapor would have been fine. I myself have been wearing 8D supremes for the last few years. I scanned an 8.5D vapor but I know 8.5 is too long. I barely pass the pencil test in supremes. I tried on vapors and the heel is fine but the forefoot is a little tight I didn’t have a pencil to test the depth. I only put the display model on for a minute so I wouldn’t say I really tried them on. I’m not in the market for skates I was just wondering about the custom Bauer process out of my own curiosity.
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38 minutes ago, Leif said:I picked up my Bauer custom 2s Pro today, and they are definitely a snug fit. I can see where the forefoot broadens out for my small toes. The fit and finish is first rate. The LHS reckon I should be okay using them at a casual stick n puck session followed by a scrimmage tomorrow rather than getting used to them in a public session.
My feet are fairly ordinary - shallow but broad forefoot, narrow shallow heel, thin ankle - and the skates do feel like exo skeletons consistent with a custom fit, snug but not tight.
I’m in England and the time between the shop sending the order and receiving them was three weeks and one day.
Just out of curiosity what skates were you in prior to the customs 2spros? Did you use the 3d scanner and go through the my Bauer process? If you did, did you stay in the same family or did you say scan for a vapor but went with supreme instead?
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36 minutes ago, Nolan88 said:But it feels like I get rocket quick snap shots with my super tacks 2.0 and then when I take he same shot with the trigger I get like no power at all.... why is that? And how could I learn to maximize my shot with a low kick stick?
If you look at the video McKinnion is shooting from in front of his body. DO NOT quote me on this. I believe I read this on this board somewhere. A member on here was chatting with someone from one of the bigger companies I want to say it was Bauer and they said Low vs Mid vs High kick sticks are all about where you shoot from and how you load your shots. With a low kick stick, since you get a quicker release, you want to shoot from let's say the toe of your skate or in front. A mid kick stick you basically want to shoot from the heel of your skate and release at your toe, and a high kick stick from behind your body to the heel of your foot.
For me personally, I have tried low kicks and mid kicks and I prefer mid because of where I am loading the stick from. Your shooting style may not work with a low kick stick.
EDIT: I found the reference post it's the last post; psulion22's post.
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@smu not to beat a dead horse, but I am with you. Holder issue aside you got scanned and you got a skate that was completely wrong... okay that happens sometimes. You and your shop think re-scanning/ sending pictures and notes back saying everything that is wrong with the first pair is a good idea. I agree maybe the first scan was in fact messed up. This is on True to compare the two scans, notes and pictures and say something isn't adding up here. Maybe the experience True fitters on the board are correct and the scanner isn't calibrated properly then they could have contacted the LHS and let them know that something is way off with these scans and they could have troubleshot with the LHS to ensure you got scanned correctly. You might have had to come in for a third scan, but that's better than a third pair of skates. There just seems to be a disconnect from a customer service standpoint.
I used to work in computer repairs and if we got a repeat customer with a repeat issue that wasn't solved the first time around we would usually have one of our more experienced people check out their computer the second time because we really wanted to nail the issue and not have them come back a third time.
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I am looking for suggestions on which CAG One profile to try out? Now that the shop has got it up and running I would like to test them out. I was thinking of starting out with their recommended one of either 25-40 or 30-40 for a size 8 blade. I did see Crosby is using their 30-60 on 280 holders so obviously, you don't have to follow what their chart says.
Anyone have experience and can recommend a profile for a 272 blade? -
2 minutes ago, Nicholas G said:I deal with a lot of high-level Junior teams, including WHL teams and such. I rarely see a single pair of Bauer or CCM skates make it through more than a single season. Most players go multiple seasons in a single pair of True skates. I skate about 15+ hours a week on average and my last pair of CCM/Bauer skates looked pretty beat up after 4 months.
Well we will agree to disagree I guess.
Like I said I’ve been in my skates for 3 years and can’t say they have durability issues. Aside from normal wear and tear over 3 years my skates have held up great.
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3 minutes ago, Nicholas G said:The older generations of skates are made different than the last few generations. The NXG, MX3, then 1S and finally 2S Pro are all made from similar materials, but in drastically different ratios. Around the time the NXG and MX3 were released manufacturers started to become obsessed with lowering of skate weight. It took CCM a little longer, moving from the RBZ/JetSpeed OG to the FT1 and now the FT2.
My 190s are from the same relase as the mx3s.
From working in a shop for the last few years and seeing tons of skates come and go I don’t see a huge drop off in durability from the years to be honest. I will say I mostly see $200 price point skates to top of the line and the biggest issue I see is tendon guards ripped/ hanging on by a thread and that’s because people are lazy when taking their skates off.
Admittedly the only pair of true skates I have ever seen in person were the pure hockey display model so I can’t comment on how well they hold up over time. I will say with Bauer and ccm the durability seems fine. None of them exploded from a blocked shot.
FWIW where I live there are about 7 rinks all within an hour drive, 2 NCAA teams, 4 ACHA teams, a couple AAA teams as well as strong youth hockey programs and probably 4+ different adult leagues so I get a pretty good sample of skates id say.
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13 hours ago, Nicholas G said:The lightweight hollow feeling is nice until you take a shot to the foot or the skate starts to fall apart. I guess its all depends on the level of hockey you play and how often you are on the ice, but for me, nothing has been as durable as my True skates. Not even close.
I've been in my Supreme 190's for 3+ years now and all I have had to do was replace a few eyelets. I have taken shots off the foot and well it sucked and I felt it, but it didn't keep me off the ice nor did my skates fall apart. I am on the ice 2-4 times a week and play in pretty high level around here.
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16 hours ago, Sniper9 said:I think it depends what you're looking for. My experience with true has been decent. Not great but decent. I'm happy with my skates but it took me a few mths to get used to them. Mind you I only play once a week at most so the adjustment would've been sooner if I played more regularly.
I'll admit their QC isn't the best. Which is unacceptable when you're paying top dollar. Even if it's only glue or cosmetic stuff. This isn't a deal breaker for me but I know it is for others.
The fit for me has been good. My left skate definitely fits 100% perfect. My right is 90%. But for me I broke it down to my over pronation of my right foot. When I was scanned I positioned my right foot in a way that it cause me arch to completely collapse, therefore the scan assumed I had a flat arch. Due to this the fit on my right skate isn't as dialed in, but I don't notice it when skating, only when walking on it. I may try throwing in some SP2 insoles which may help with the arch issue since it'll mold to my actual arch.
I think some of the issues people have fit wise may be attributed to the scans. The person doing the scans really needs to know what they are doing and the scans aren't as dummy proof as one would hope. Ccm scans seem way more fool proof as you are sitting and aren't forced to stay in a lunge position which can lead to the customer not being in their true optimal scan stance.
For me if and when I decide to get a new pair of trues, I will definitely be cognizant of my right foot position and make sure arch isn't collapsed.
I'll be interested to see how custom skates are like in about 3-4 years when I start thinking of getting new skates.
@Sniper9 I agree that the True scan seems odd. I have seen videos of people getting scanned. However, I don't think 3D scans are 100% foolproof. I have done the Bauer scan and it told me I should be in 8.5 which is half a size too long. I know JR said when he was testing the machine if you stood straight up and down it usually added a half size. You even with not being 100% happy with your skates you would still go back? Why? I agree within the next few years as technology increases I think the scans will get better.
8 hours ago, Nicholas G said:True still builds their skates from scratch and from the inside out. Bauer and CCM pick a last off a shelf and then customize the last. The way the skates are built is entirely different between True vs others. In fact, most True skates will last you many seasons compared to other brands which just aren't built with the same materials that would allow for such longevity.
For example, take a look at a pair of FT1 or Vapor 1X skates after a season of playing high-level hockey and then compare them to a pair of True skates. It will be clearly evident which skates are built with more durable materials.
@Nicholas G I have seen the 'demo' pair or whatever you want to call it at the local Pure I will admit they are tanks so I can see that being a benefit. I do disagree though I have been in the same pair of Supreme 190s (MX3 season) for the last 3 years. Up until this year, I was playing in the highest level of men's league in my area and I am a former ACHA player. I am not going to say I am some sort of an elite skater or anything like that, but I think I skate pretty well. I usually play 2-4 times a week and my 190s are still in great condition. Maybe I am not as hard on my skates as others but as far as I am concerned the durability of my Bauers have met my expectations and I would say I should get at least another 3 years out of them.
Also as @Leif stated are you sure Bauer and CCM are picking as last off the shelf because they are both claiming to making the skates off of a 3D print out of your foot. I heard it was True that was picking a last that was closest to peoples scans. I know True has more than 3 last maybe they have 1,000 I don't know so I am not saying they are closing their eyes and just hoping for the best but it is still not built off of a 3D print out of your foot.
I know part of the issue with my original question is VH/True skates used to be the easiest way to get customs before the 3D scanning came into play. With Bauer and CCM you needed to find a shop with a fitter that you trusted and to be honest I don't even know how the process went. Bauer and CCM have only been building custom skates off of a 3D scan at retail for a few months so its tough to gauge them this early on all I know is what my friend has said about his custom CCMs. I mean this thread alone has 160+ pages so there is a lot of dialogue about these skates so there is just a ton of info.
Anyone else on why they decided True over Bauer or CCM?
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Just out of curiosity (I am not trying to start a war) why are people still choosing to go with True over CCM and Bauer? Is True's custom process/ scanning that much different than the other two?
I have a friend who had the option to go with custom True or CCM this was right before Bauer announced their custom program and he went with CCM because of all of the quality control issues with True and he is extremely happy with his CCMs. FWIW my friend went through roughly 4 pairs of retail skates in a year nothing quite fit him perfectly he was constantly tinkering with foot booties and different things to improve the fit of his skates so it wasn't someone going with custom skates just for the hell of it he had fit issues.
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3 hours ago, Leif said:I don't think we said anything different, except that for the Bauer you use the term 'fully custom skate' without clarifying what that means. Having seen a YouTube video of Bauer custom skates being made, my understanding is that they take mostly off the shelf components (quarter package, sole, toe cap etc), throw in a few customisations (tongue etc), build the skate and then use heat and pressure to mould that 'almost stock' skate to a mould of your foot. This seems like a rather clever approach but perhaps not quite as good as made to measure if your foot diverges markedly from a stock skate. Of course I may be mistaken, and it might indeed be a made to measure skate with unique toecap etc, in which case hopefully someone such as JDub will chime in and correct me.
As an aside, the Bauer 3D scan is fascinating. I never until then realised what shape feet I have, and how they related to the three Bauer skate models, and that my feet do not properly conform to any model.
From my understanding, Bauer themselves will reference the scan and make adjustments to the skates as needed such as increased quarters or oversized toe caps.
Bauer is no longer leaving this up to the fitter and they would be the ones to make the call. The fitter can add notes that need to be addressed in the scan for Bauer. I do believe Bauer is also able to make this call while looking at the scans if it is missed by the fitter. I could be not understanding this correctly either, but this is what I have read before. As you said they do however allow the customer to pick from a limited selection of liners and tongues. As someone who doesn't fit in any model that is where stay in the family they recommend from. They would make a custom to your foot skate out of that family. Again this is all the pieces I have pieced together from the various threads I have read on custom skates. It would be great if someone from Bauer, CCM and True could come on here and clear everything up for us in terms of the process of manufacturing the custom skates and in particular the what if I don't fit in any family of Bauer or CCM. That's also why I tagged some of the people I did in hopes to get some definite answers.-
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16 hours ago, Leif said:According to various online sources, it would appear that CCM and Bauer use a machine to make a custom mould of each foot. CCM openly state that a stock boot (or one with custom options) is then formed using heat and pressure around each mould. I believe Bauer do the same, thus the custom options are tongue, blades and lacing eyelets, other parts of the boot are stock. Many people state that True make a proper fully custom skate from your foot measurements, but they form it around the closest existing mould that they have, of which there are supposedly 350. However, this is speculative and may be incorrect.
I have duck feet, which are shallow, and not particularly wide, which might suggest Vapor, but the widest part is at the end, just like a duck’s foot, which does not map to Vapor as that assumes a narrowish foot end. I guess Bauer believe that by choosing the boot with the correct volume, the pressure moulding will create a good fit. I believe that the toe cap is and off the shelf and not heat formable, which could be an issue for people like me. I guess even though this process is called custom, in reality it is not a proper custom as per custom made shoes, but how good it is remains to be seen.
You're close
Bauer:
Fully custom skate based off of a 3D print of your foot according to @JDub here on page 7. Bauer just isn't offering as many options to the general public as they do for their pros which makes sense@JR Boucicaut also had some insight pre 3D scan here on bauer skates
CCM:
Two options. Option 1 CCM prints out a 3D print of your foot and takes a retail skate and bakes it with the mold and forms it that way. Option two a fully custom skate based off of your 3D foot scan. This is according to @JR Boucicaut here on page 3True:
Takes a 3D scan of your foot and bases the construction off of a 3D render and a 3D print of a foot similar to yours. I could not find any reliable sources detailing the process of manufacturing True custom skates. Although on page 101 @Zac911 stated many times that they were custom made for your feet.Hopefully, I have provided correct information for all three skate manufacturers.
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Just went and got scanned because I was curious. I did set up an account with Volumental, but I cannot seem to access the scan online anywhere and it was not emailed to me. The app did crash during the setup of the account.
Anyway, I have been wearing 8D Supreme 190 for a few years now with no issues. It recommended 8.5D Vapors which I already knew 8.5 was too long. For fun, I tried on the display 1X which was an 8. The length was correct 8.5 would have been too long. I did feel a bunch of hot spots mostly width wise that I don't feel in Supremes. I know baking wouldn't drastically widen the boot. In the past when I have gone skate shopping I have always tried on a bunch of different skates Vapors just never felt comfortable out of the box like Supremes did. I would love to be able to demo a pair of Vapors though just for a comparison.
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3 hours ago, JONES199 said:Looking to stay with the taller blade. He boots out on the shorter ones.
LS3 and LS4 are the same height.
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VH Footwear/TRUE by Scott Van Horne
in Ice Hockey Equipment
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The silicone sleeve doesn't bother me except when it gets messed up when I am putting my socks on sometimes. It would be great to not have to use it though. Maybe I will try the washcloth method with the sleeves on my pond hockey skates and see if its worth it with my other ones.