The Things Customers Do

[Chadd 916]

And the last comment makes me think you are just being an a$hole. I didnt do anything to you, so that comment isnt necessary.

That's exactly what you said you were doing, that annoys me.

[eric42434224 1]

And the last comment makes me think you are just being an a$hole. I didnt do anything to you, so that comment isnt necessary.

That's exactly what you said you were doing, that annoys me.

What do you mean? That isnt what I was doing at all. My post was just an idea, and it was intended to foster the discussion. No more no less. That really shouldnt be annoying to anyone....unless you have a vested stake in LHS's...and in that case, I feel for you.

Actually, nevermind. This subject is all conjecture, and it seems to be ruffling some feathers. I really dont want to get in an arguement.

Can we just drop this and let the thread get back to its original subject?

Edited October 3, 2008 by eric42434224

[Rustpot 1]

Eric, robots don't build cars. Automated assembly lines don't take scap metal and make it roll off the dealership lot. They do some things in some companies, but you're making it sound like Skynet is real and the robot revolution will come as we all sail through the stars. Your continuous example is making you sound idiotic, and the fact that you keep on about it is only reinforcing that notion.

[eric42434224 1]

Eric, robots don't build cars. Automated assembly lines don't take scap metal and make it roll off the dealership lot. They do some things in some companies, but you're making it sound like Skynet is real and the robot revolution will come as we all sail through the stars. Your continuous example is making you sound idiotic, and the fact that you keep on about it is only reinforcing that notion.

Wow.

Robots do build cars...in the sense that they perform repetitious actions within extremely tight tolerances. And can be adjusted depending on different models. What is the difference?

Robots dont design anything....scrap metal analogy is just so far off base it is funny. An automated sharpener wont take scrap metal and leather and build a skate either. Keep the analogies at least close to plausible.

Skate sharpeneing is a defined, repititous task, that needs to be adjusted for differing skates and individual sharpening characteristics.

Now please read this 2 or 3 times if you need to to let it sink in:

It is obvious that there is nothing out there in the market right now that can compete with a human. It is far too expensive to make it viable. But if you think that the technology doesnt exist right now to design somehing like this, then you are woefully unaware of what is possible today.

Furthermore, can we please drop this as we all seem to keep missing the point of each others posts.

I think we can, or should, agree on these basic points, and then drop it:

1) Sharpening is a difficult task that requires skill and practice

2) There is not an automated machine that can perform this task available now.

3) The technology and ability to create an automated machine to sharpen does exist

4) It is not economically viable for such a machine to be built now, or in the near future.

5) It will become viable some day, but as with all technology, it will require human design, creation, programming, calibration, and maintenance.

Seriously, the complexity of the technology in computers, phones, robotic manufacturing, military weaponry is amazing. That doesnt include cutting edge technology that we havent seen yet. Is it so hard to see that an automated skate sharpener is not sci-fi, but actually pretty mundane?

Regardless, perhaps we can, like I suggested, let this tangent die, and let the thread get back to its intended subject?

Edited October 3, 2008 by eric42434224

[Skunk 1]

I don't think the LHS will ever go completely under. In tough times, no matter what the store type is, customer service improves. The smart LHS will adjust to keep up and adapt to the times.

I'm more worried about the rinks being able to stay open and turn a buck and new rinks being built. (or the lack thereof)

Being a small bizz owner myself, I always shop in person at several LHS unless it is a item that no one carries...ie: T Blade runners.

You can't put a price on proper fitting, baking, advice, personal service and frinedship. It also stimulates the local economy. I don't see much of a difference most of the time anyway on price.

[raygunpk 0]

No, lets talk more about robots. When will they make robot goalies?

[eric42434224 1]

No, lets talk more about robots. When will they make robot goalies?

Screw that....when will they make robot sex slaves?

[VakarLajos 5]

Skate sharpening is an art. Go sharpen some skates before you go making stupid assumptions Eric. As stated, different variables come into play with different steel, preferences, etc.

I am sorry, but you are wrong. I dont need to sharpen skates to know that. You think it is an art because you have to adjust and adapt....but that is only because you are human. The proper sharpening can be done by a robotic system that will allow for far more variables and work with far smaller tolerances than a human being. People said the same thing you do when automation took over the auto industry. Faster and higher quality. This isnt really up for debate, as it is just a fact that an automated system will just do it better, and more consistently...that is a fact. The issue is that no one can build a robot machine to do this and make it even remotely cost effective.

And please refrain from saying it is a stupid assumption. I dont tell you it is a stupid assumption to underestimate the abilities of computer/robotic automation, do I? If you were creating something new, as in music or a painting, or something that is subjective in its quality, then I agree with the art position. But skate sharpening is not the case. It has very specific parameters and variables that can easily be calculated and measured to far tighter tolerances by a computer. That really isnt debatable. It just doesnt make any economic or business sense to do it. Not saying it doesnt require great skill to do it, but it isnt anythng that cant be done by computer robotics. There are things being done by systems like that that are far more complex than skate sharpening. Seriously, it would be a rudinmentary task....just not viable money wise.

Nobody has been able to produce a system that is better than a human. I'm sure that it's possible given enough money but you aren't going to see a rink spending a million or more on something to sharpen skates. You would also have to have humans set up and calibrate the machine, making operation of this mythical super-sharpener still dependent on people. The new Blackstone spinner system is going to make it much easier for people to do a great job.

Your vision is about as unlikely as anything I can imagine.

That just isnt true and you know it, but if you feel you must post a response like that, it is your perogative.

Besides, I think everyone here can see it was purely off-the-cuff conjecture. What the LHS will really be in the years to come isnt smoething I have resarched. No one knows for sure what the LHS will evolve into for sure, and my scenario is not impossible. I can imagine of a sh1tload of scenarios less likely, and I am sure you can too.

If you seriously believe that it may come to that there is nothing I can do to help you.

Dude, READ my post. I dont seriously think anything on the subject, so no help is needed...sheeesh. Just throwing a scenario out there that was purely conjecture and for the purposes of conversation. Stop taking it so serious (my hypothetical scenario, not the precarious situations currently facing LHS's...that is serious). OK? :)

I forget that some people just pull shit out of their ass to post.

I don't see anything wrong with proposing a possible scenario. He's not stating he has insider information that companies are perfecting this technology as we speak.

I don't agree with the scenario, but who knows, it could be a possible future.

[jimmy 194]

I dont see anythng about skate sharpening that is an "art". It could be done with more precision with a robot. Things are done, and things made by Robots with exponentially more difficult parameters than skate sharpening. The only reason it isnt done now is that the technology, while available for over a decade or so, is cost prohibitive. And there were recalls before robots. Remember the Pinto? LOL

I fully agree. Robot machines (if developed) could certainly sharpen skates better than any human. The machine would also have to be able to examine the skate to determine if the sharpening was done correctly. The act of sharpening is relatively easy, but the act of ensuring it was done right is somewhat more difficult. If one could develop a machine that can sharpen, and then inspect results both mechanically and visually, there would be no need for skate sharpening humans. Except of course, someone who could recognize that a blade was loose, or a holder broken, or a holder out of alignment, or steel height getting low, etc. . If a machine can do all that, at a reasonable price, then I'm all for it. Again, we need another computer machine to ensure the original computer machine is aligned correctly and calibrated correctly. I don't think the end cost to the consumer would be reasonable and the price of sharpening would skyrocket. Perhaps in 10 yrs, we'll see something that's groundbreaking. But, how is this machine going to know how to pick the correct hollow, or pitch, or radius for the individual? Someone's going to have to develop some awesome computer program to do that too.

[mgoblue 0]

Anyone who thinks that a machine capable of sharpening skates more effectively than humans is inconceivable - even with current technology - is sorely mistaken.

Feasibility is another issue.

To say that the notion of a mechanical, self-sufficient skate sharpener should conjure images of The Terminator, however, would be to speak from utter ignorance.

But this is a ridiculous discussion in the first place... has anyone had a customer ask for two drastically different ROHs on their two skates?

[jimmy 194]

Anyone who thinks that a machine capable of sharpening skates more effectively than humans is inconceivable - even with current technology - is sorely mistaken.

Feasibility is another issue.

To say that the notion of a mechanical, self-sufficient skate sharpener should conjure images of The Terminator, however, would be to speak from utter ignorance.

But this is a ridiculous discussion in the first place... has anyone had a customer ask for two drastically different ROHs on their two skates?

It's going to happen, just not for some time. What company is going to invest the $$ to create such a monster? Who would pay $30 a sharpening to pay for this technology.

As for your other question, yes, I have one customer who likes a deeper hollow on his left skate because that's the one he pushes off with and is his dominant foot. So 3/8's on the left, 1/2 on the right. It works for him and he claims better performance.

[Johnny Law 0]

Anyone who thinks that a machine capable of sharpening skates more effectively than humans is inconceivable - even with current technology - is sorely mistaken.

Feasibility is another issue.

To say that the notion of a mechanical, self-sufficient skate sharpener should conjure images of The Terminator, however, would be to speak from utter ignorance.

But this is a ridiculous discussion in the first place... has anyone had a customer ask for two drastically different ROHs on their two skates?

Not to beat a dead horse but if you have any experience in high end metal work you know a human will never be as good as a computer controlled machine. Through college and high school I worked in a very high end prototype shop of sorts, if you own an oven your gasket was made by our machines. CNC's , plasma cutters, etc. are doing far far more complex cuttings and millings than skate sharpening. This is why they invented the lathe, CNC and a billion other automated metal working machines, humans simply cannot provide the same level of consistency let alone adherence to strict tolerances. The fast majority of things you purchase from large/medium scale manufactures were produced by an automated process.

The point is moot though as all these machines are very very expensive and need to be run by a skilled operator who knows the ins and outs of metal working. I don't see a day where you could get any significant return on investment because you would still need to hire an operator that knows at least the basics of sharpening, so why not train him and forget the million dollar CNC.

This takes nothing away from a skilled sharpener, any person who is capable of examining metal and then using a tool to properly shape that metal is an artisan to some degree. The higher level guys skills are truly impressive and if you have the good fortune of having one close by I envy you.

As an aside I don't know how some of you came up with some of the ideas posted in this thread, automation is what makes all of our lives possible. Automation is in everything from breakfast cereal to paper mills, I suggest you learn more about it before posting.

[eric42434224 1]

^^^^^Great Post. In short, it is easily possible, just not economically feasible....for now :)

Edited October 3, 2008 by eric42434224

[flyerman 0]

I haven't heard anyone mention the human connection factor in this discussion about the "future of skate sharpening in the age of robotics and automation." Even if the technology the Eric envisions was available and accessible right now, I still prefer a personal connection to the LHS employee who sharpens my skates, just like I want a personal connection to the mechanic who repairs and tunes up my car, etc. This is a basic human and customer service issue in which more than the monetary cost of the end product or service is involved.

I believe that skate sharpening is indeed an artform in the sense that any highly skilled, highly personalize, highly nuanced, and niche-based craft is. It may not be as "exact" as technological "innovation" continues to move us aside, and it may end up going the way of the shoe repair shop, but there will still be people like me who prefer it because the personal connection in customer service at a LHS is irreplaceable -- from custom profiling and sharpening, to advice on hollows, to free sharpenings from the shop manager when nobody else is looking.

A box that we put our skates into can never deliver this, just like saving $50 on skates from Hockey Monkey can never provide the value of having your skates fitted properly at a LHS by someone with whom you develop a long-term relationship and will take care of you as a customer for the life of the product. Automation and technology will continue to come and dominate our lives, but it doesn't have to destroy our capacity for human connection in everything we do....like choosing to get our skates sharpened at a LHS because we care enough to support them and their craft.

Edited October 3, 2008 by flyerman

[SAK 2]

Sorry guys I can't help but comment on this topic. Some know who I am some don't. We have always been working on getting to the point of having automated sharpening. It is almost like a space race situation in our industry, you are correct there is technology out there that would be able to sharpen a skate via a "robot", however skate sharpening would go up to about $100.00 a sharpening. It is fun to think about and we have come up with some technology that would make it easier to do this, but skate sharpening is one of the last crafts in our modern life. Think about it there is not many other crafts left that are done by hand. It's one of my favorite topics and a lot of time is spent on dreaming up the ultimate skate sharpener. For now, it is hard to replace a person that views it as a craft, I think that is why people are so passionate about being a skate sharpener.

[JJ Thompson94 0]

Heres a good question as for store ettiquite.

I am currently in the market for skates. I'm thinking ethier Graf G3 or the NBH XXXX. (currently have XXX). There are these graf dealers in my area that do outstanding fittings and I trust them a a lot. Only problem is they only have the NBH XXV. I'd like to be fitted for both by these guys. If I like the grafs, then I would definitly get the grafs at the shop. If I like the XXV's I'd use their info and probably go out and get the XXXX's. It would then be kinda aqward to go there and get them molded and fitted and stretched and sharpened.

First question would be: Is it messed up to do that to the shop?

Second: Would you be offended if I then brought my new xxxx's to be streched and molded and sharpened there after I just used their fitting to buy skates online.

I'm also a bit worried, only because I know they are graf dealers and they tend to be a bit pushy towards the grafs and love to talk shit about NBH esspecially since Nike bought bauer. I want to make a good decision. I love my XXX's...but really only after they refitted the skate to fit better.

I'm kinda leaning toward the XXXX's and if they had them, I wouldn't even be posting this, i'd just buy them at the shop.

WHat do you guys think? Help me out with this.

[Viking 1]

I'm sure they'd be offended, but it's not like they offered you an alternative. If they actually sold the product you wanted, it seems like you would buy it from them. If you want to buy from the shop, why not ask them if they can order it in for you?... If they say no to that, they're pretty much asking you to buy online, so there's no guilt on your part if they don't stock it, and won't get it in to sell it to you.

[VakarLajos 5]

Heres a good question as for store ettiquite.

I am currently in the market for skates. I'm thinking ethier Graf G3 or the NBH XXXX. (currently have XXX). There are these graf dealers in my area that do outstanding fittings and I trust them a a lot. Only problem is they only have the NBH XXV. I'd like to be fitted for both by these guys. If I like the grafs, then I would definitly get the grafs at the shop. If I like the XXV's I'd use their info and probably go out and get the XXXX's. It would then be kinda aqward to go there and get them molded and fitted and stretched and sharpened.

First question would be: Is it messed up to do that to the shop?

Second: Would you be offended if I then brought my new xxxx's to be streched and molded and sharpened there after I just used their fitting to buy skates online.

I'm also a bit worried, only because I know they are graf dealers and they tend to be a bit pushy towards the grafs and love to talk shit about NBH esspecially since Nike bought bauer. I want to make a good decision. I love my XXX's...but really only after they refitted the skate to fit better.

I'm kinda leaning toward the XXXX's and if they had them, I wouldn't even be posting this, i'd just buy them at the shop.

WHat do you guys think? Help me out with this.

If you really like the fit of the XXXXs and they don't have them or can't order them, then there's no reason to buy a skate you don't want to buy to placate to the store. They may be able to order you a pair of XXXXs from Bauer. I'd see about that first.

I'd understand if a customer did not buy from us because we were unable to get what they wanted as long as they gave us the chance to get it. That they would continue to shop with us whenever they could does mean a lot though.

[Chadd 916]

I'm also a bit worried, only because I know they are graf dealers and they tend to be a bit pushy towards the grafs and love to talk shit about NBH esspecially since Nike bought bauer.

That's funny considering how many Grafs come screwed up from the factory.

[shooter27 116]

Heres a good question as for store ettiquite.

I am currently in the market for skates. I'm thinking ethier Graf G3 or the NBH XXXX. (currently have XXX). There are these graf dealers in my area that do outstanding fittings and I trust them a a lot. Only problem is they only have the NBH XXV. I'd like to be fitted for both by these guys. If I like the grafs, then I would definitly get the grafs at the shop. If I like the XXV's I'd use their info and probably go out and get the XXXX's. It would then be kinda aqward to go there and get them molded and fitted and stretched and sharpened.

First question would be: Is it messed up to do that to the shop?

Second: Would you be offended if I then brought my new xxxx's to be streched and molded and sharpened there after I just used their fitting to buy skates online.

I'm also a bit worried, only because I know they are graf dealers and they tend to be a bit pushy towards the grafs and love to talk shit about NBH esspecially since Nike bought bauer. I want to make a good decision. I love my XXX's...but really only after they refitted the skate to fit better.

I'm kinda leaning toward the XXXX's and if they had them, I wouldn't even be posting this, i'd just buy them at the shop.

WHat do you guys think? Help me out with this.

I see you're in NYC so I'm about 99% sure I know what shop you are talking about so I think I can shed some light for you. When I was in the market for skates I looked seriously at Graf's and had that shop fit me up extensively. They even baked a pair of Graf's for me so I could feel what they would be like one they were molded. At the end of the day I decided to go with One95's. Since I bought the new skates I have had them baked, profiled, sharpened, and punched at this shop and the guys could not have been nicer. Now, I will tell you I did ask them about the possibility of them ordering One95's, in passing, and they said it would take them 8-10 weeks to get the skates and I was very clear I didn't want to wait that long, so that may contribute to how things played out. At the end of the day, these guys are quite nice and I don't think they would give you a hard time.

[jimmy 194]

If you are honest with the shop, they'll treat you just fine. Tell them you really want the XXXX's now, and since they can't get them for you fast, you'll probably have to get get them elsewhere but will bring them to them for sharpening, molding, etc. I make a lot of money sharpening, molding, stretching and punching and servicing skates bought elsewhere, in fact, almost as much if I sold the skate myself. Even better for me, because I don't have to stock ridiculous inventory. I wouldn't be mad if you bought skates I didn't sell elsewhere and had them serviced, I don't think your shop will as long as you are honest with them.

Also, don't be bothered by the shop pushing Grafs. Many shops push the brand they sell. I know one shop who tries hard to talk you out of your decision, and will force you to sit down and watch a video of how their"favorite" brand's skates are manufactured. They will talk down all other brands, even brands they sell.

[Bryan Czajka 0]

Customer asks if they can borrow a stick for the team pictures because they forgot their new one at home that day and they only had the "old ugly backup that was in last years picture." He asked if we would let him borrow and tape up a brand new xxxx for the picture and then bring it back in a half hour after the pictures were done. He even offered to leave the old beaten up SL in the store with us as collateral, ensuring me that he would return the brand new stick.......

[mgoblue 0]

Customer asks if they can borrow a stick for the team pictures because they forgot their new one at home that day and they only had the "old ugly backup that was in last years picture." He asked if we would let him borrow and tape up a brand new xxxx for the picture and then bring it back in a half hour after the pictures were done. He even offered to leave the old beaten up SL in the store with us as collateral, ensuring me that he would return the brand new stick.......

That's something else, wow.

Was it a Brighton high schooler?

[Xyphereos 0]

Customer asks if they can borrow a stick for the team pictures because they forgot their new one at home that day and they only had the "old ugly backup that was in last years picture." He asked if we would let him borrow and tape up a brand new xxxx for the picture and then bring it back in a half hour after the pictures were done. He even offered to leave the old beaten up SL in the store with us as collateral, ensuring me that he would return the brand new stick.......

That is very very sad. I dont understand how people think they can get away with that.

[VakarLajos 5]

Customer asks if they can borrow a stick for the team pictures because they forgot their new one at home that day and they only had the "old ugly backup that was in last years picture." He asked if we would let him borrow and tape up a brand new xxxx for the picture and then bring it back in a half hour after the pictures were done. He even offered to leave the old beaten up SL in the store with us as collateral, ensuring me that he would return the brand new stick.......

yes, the used Vapor XX with all the decals worn away is ample compensation for a brand new XXXX. lol