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wickedwrister

Why do guys with half shields get mad

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I think hockey is a very tough sport for beginners to pick up. Not only do they have to learn the rules, theres the bigger issue of learning the mechanics of the game (balance, skating, stickhandling, shooting) so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. That's about the only time I'd let stick infractions to head slide.

That said, they should still be reminded to always keep their sticks down. For folks that say "it's part of the game", I don't accept that. It's our responsibility as players to remind everyone (whether it's pickup or pro hockey) to keep track of their sticks. You're never too old to change.

I wear a visor. I like it better than a cage. I get more peripheral vision and I can swing my head left to right (heck i'll even say that because of this extra range of mobility I was able to avoid high shots or errant sticks). If i get hit by a deflected puck or I fall and slam my face to the post or boards then fine, I wore a cage I'll accept that. That's incidental. If I take someone else's stick to the face would I be mad? Of course I will.

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Interesting post in that it works for both points of view here in this discussion.

You seem to think that people should be responsible for themselves and keep their sticks down, so you dont have to change your behavoir in not wearing a cage.

Yet your statement also supports the other view. People should be responsible for themselves and wear proper protection, and not rely on other people changing their behavoir like keeping sticks down.

Should people keep their sticks down? Yes. But the likelyhood of that happening is the same as Martha Stewart sleeping on dirty sheets. You 100% have the right to hear little or no facial protection. But if you get hurt, you must share the blame.

It's a responsibility to control YOURSELF. Me wearing a visor is does not directly correspond to me getting hit in the head with a stick, I could be wearing a cage and still get hit in the head. The result might be different but the action is the same. However, some asshole or beginner that can't control their stick from swinging up high is out of my control. That's where the personal responssibility comes in. The cage never bothered me, I wore one from the time I started until I was done with college, the second I wasn't required to wear one anymore it came off because I liked the visor better, simple as that. I tried without a mask at all for a while and that was even better, but the only time I'll take my visor off is everyone else on the ice is better than me, and that doesn't happen very often. I could give 2 shits about my teeth, but eyes can't replace eyes.

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It's a responsibility to control YOURSELF. Me wearing a visor is does not directly correspond to me getting hit in the head with a stick, I could be wearing a cage and still get hit in the head. The result might be different but the action is the same. However, some asshole or beginner that can't control their stick from swinging up high is out of my control. That's where the personal responssibility comes in. The cage never bothered me, I wore one from the time I started until I was done with college, the second I wasn't required to wear one anymore it came off because I liked the visor better, simple as that. I tried without a mask at all for a while and that was even better, but the only time I'll take my visor off is everyone else on the ice is better than me, and that doesn't happen very often. I could give 2 shits about my teeth, but eyes can't replace eyes.

I dont agree. It is your personal responsibility to mitigate damage. Wearing a visor will not directly correspond to you getting hit, correct, but it will correspond directly to the possibility of greater injury.

I think there isnt a fundamental understanding of each sides point here. There is a difference between getting hit (Visor guys are annoyed at the lack of basic stick control and getting hit) and getting injured (Cage guys know that high sticks will happen and want to protect themselves).

Both are perfectly fine and are a personal view and choice.

The only thing I personally am saying is:

Everyone, regardless of equipment choice, has the right to get upset about poor stick control and getting hit with errant sticks. No arguement there.

Everyone has a choice to wear what they want, but do so being fully informed of the consequenses. Getting hit with a stick is the other persons fault (for the most part). But losing your teeth or eyes is where you must share the blame because of your own choices.

If the above poster loses his teeth from a high stick, it is common sense that he must share in the responsibility for the severity of the injury.

PS, why dont you give a shit about your teeth? Not sure I know of anyone who doesnt care if they get knocked out....except for meth addicts and denture wearers. I think your view on teeth being knocked out would change dramatically if it happened...and more so when the dentist bill comes. :)

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At least you're honest about why you wear a visor. If you don't care about your teeth, and you're honest about it, then if you lose some, should you complain about it and take it out on somebody else?

I guess that's what I'm asking along with the OP.

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At least you're honest about why you wear a visor. If you don't care about your teeth, and you're honest about it, then if you lose some, should you complain about it and take it out on somebody else?

I guess that's what I'm asking along with the OP.

If it was because someone was careless with a stick, yes, he can be upset.

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BUT, the people with the visors should understand the risk.

To me there are more types of players than we are thinking of here.

A) There are the reckless assholes with a cage who get pissed if they hit someone who isn't wearing a cage, because everyone should know where their opponents sticks are and hockey is physical so that's why you need a cage

B)There are the people who have a cage, who use it for protection, because they realize the dangers involved with such said assholes and accidents, and just don't want to risk anything.

C) There are the people who wear a visor or nothing who do not understand the risks involved in not wearing a cage, and get pissed when anything hits them, accidental or reckless.

D) Then there are the people who wear a visor or nothing who understand these risks, and continue to do so, and don't get upset if it is an accident, however, still get upset if it is pure recklessness, because this is BS actions and the stuff that needs to stop.

All sides need to realize that there are the other sides that have their reasons. Person A is an idiot and is reckless and is the type of person we all don't want to be/hate. Person B is the type of person who most of us are because we understand the risks involved in not wearing anything, and chose to wear as much protection as possible, to prevent as many injuries as possible. Person C is who I think the most of us hate as well, who are also idiots. They expect everyone to be perfect, and there to be no accidents and recklessness that could injure them. Then Person D is where the rest of us fit in, and most of us who wear nothing or a visor. We understand that there are dangers involved in not wearing a mask, and accept them, however, we do expect people not to be reckless with their stuff, because it is dangerous, and unneccessarily at that. As someone who has worn a mask because he had to, then switched to a visor because it was availalbe, and currently am in nothing because it feels the best/can't get a smaller visor, I know everytime I skate there is a chance that I am going to get popped in the face by either a deflected puck, or some jackoff who isn't controlling his stick. If I get hit by the puck, purely luck, nothing I could do, if I was wearing a visor I'd be ducked too. However the only time I get pissed is from ridiculous follow throughs, or idiots who think we're playing fucking lacrosse. And I think we could all agree that people A and C are the people who are the problem, and we're all in either a B or D.

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I dont agree. It is your personal responsibility to mitigate damage. Wearing a visor will not directly correspond to you getting hit, correct, but it will correspond directly to the possibility of greater injury.

PS, why dont you give a shit about your teeth? Not sure I know of anyone who doesnt care if they get knocked out....except for meth addicts and denture wearers. I think your view on teeth being knocked out would change dramatically if it happened...and more so when the dentist bill comes. :)

I believe I made that distinction in my opening statement.

My teeth aren't that pretty so if they get nocked out I get new nice ones thanks to dental insurance.

Do I want to lost them? Absolutely not, it wouldn't be the end of my world if it happened though. It would be the way they get knocked out that would determine my reaction. If I get hit with a deflected puck, ok it's gonna hurt and suck but I can't get mad at anyone about it. If it's some guy that can't control his shot shooting high hard ones into traffic you can't bet every last dollar you have that I'm gonna be pissed about it. If I lift a guys stick and it happens to fly up and hit me in the mouth, so be it, I caused that one. Getting hit in the mouth with a stick any other type of way and I'll have some choice words for you depending on how it went down.

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I was at a pickup game the other week where the skill level gap was huge. There was a 40 something year old guy wearing a visor pressuring a younger 20 something guy wearing a cage who had obviously skated less then 10 times in his entire life. The cage wearer was not good on his feet to say the least and was having a pretty hard time staying upright, the visor wearer tripped the cage wearer and they both fell and slid into the boards. Somewhere in this entanglement the visor wearer got a stick to the visor and once they both got back up the visor guy started bitching at the cage wearer to control his stick and keep his stick down. It was insane the visor guy was clearly at fault and put uneeded pressure on a clearly new player.

Is it so stupid. I will always wear a cage, or a full shield. There are too many inexperienced players and too many experienced assholes. My extra vision isnt worth the risk or the bills!

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My teeth aren't that pretty so if they get nocked out I get new nice ones thanks to dental insurance.

You seriously need to become aware of what dental insurance covers! LOL

I have killer dental insurance, and it still cost over 5 grand out of pocket for a 6 new tooth bridge. And that is with a discount (the cosmetic dentist is a friend), and after my benefits were exhausted. Insurance is NOT going to cover the replacement of your teeth. You will have substantial out-of-pocket costs for something like that. Dental insurance will have a maximum benefit per year (usually around $1500 or so)....and that will include all your preventative stuff like xrays, cleaning, etc.....you wont have much for restorative things like bridges or implants.

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tareatingrat...

I really suspect that we are not too far apart on our opinions here... Probably shaded by our observations and experiences. I don't play much anymore.... I play for fun, I want to skate, pass, shoot, and not have to worry about getting a butt end or a cross check to the kidneys in the slot or the corner. It's not about rubbing someone into the boards, or giving\getting a stick lift that will knock the opponents stick out of their hands if they don't have a good grip on it, or nearly snapping their shaft coming down on it with a stick check. If all the guys in your beer league wants to play that way, go ahead. Yeah some of us have to get up for work in the morning, and some don't have any insurance and whatever else you hear from beer leaguers when someone gets out of hand. If I feel the NEED to wear a cage for my own safety - after playing for so long without one - I'd rather NOT play than wear a cage and play with guys that I don't trust to play in a safe manner.

Having officiated several thousand games over the past 20 years it's my "opinion" that the hands and sticks have progressively been carried higher. Likewise, the hits and stick checks\lifts have gotten more & more aggressive and violent. Now this is officiating "real hockey games" (for lack of a better term), not the play for fun adult\beer leagues. Over that same time period, as players graduated from the organized competitive hockey and entered the world of adult\beer leagues they carried this same attitude and style of play with them. As more and more of these players began to populate the adult ranks, the style of play changed for the worse. Add the guys that never played organized competitive hockey with coaches and practices - who's idea of how to play is what they see on Versus - and you should be able to see where I'm coming from..... When I played in the adult leagues in the Pittsburgh area I usually was playing in the "A" leagues or whatever was the highest league designation at that rink. I've tried playing B league levels and pick up games, and they have the newbies mucking around and the aggressive assholes being themselves. Playing in the adult leagues just became less and less fun. For me, the fun left the game when I had to deal with more hooks, slashes, and BS to play beer league than I did when it was for real.... Do i miss it? you betcha... I manage to play maybe four times a year these days..... Would like to play more, but haven't found the league or group that suits me. I know it's out there, just have not found it yet.... Or I could ramp it up an couple notches and play the way they're playing - but then they really wouldn't like me 'cuz I could be really good at playing that way when it was called for.

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Yeah, like I said, I think we totally agree on what the game should be, fun.

And it's simply my opinion that the game is more fun if I don't get hurt, and I'd personally rather wear a cage than stop playing, but, like you said, that starts to play into our personal experiences.

But I understand where you're coming from. I stopped playing ball hockey and moved to ice because there were too many idiots pretending they were in the NHL in those leagues, and it was kind of awkward to wear full equipment in ball hockey.

Although I've actually found the opposite in adult leagues. I'm not a great player by any means, but for the amount of time I've actually played, I'm not bad. I play in the bottom division with the team I started with because it's a bunch of good guys, and for the most part, the teams we play are full of guys out to have a good time. Yeah, it gets competitive, but rarely is somebody trying to hurt anyone. I've also played a division up and I find the better players, or the players in higher divisions are much, much worse with what they try and get away with.

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Years ago I played closed pick up with a group of guys like that... very spirited, but there was respect..... a couple of us went at each other all out, but that was "agreed to" by us and it was expected that if the situation called for a hip check instead of a poke check then that's what was coming. But this was just a couple of us and it didn't carry over to the others at all.

I think the lower levels will either be more tame because of the skill level, or nuts if you get an NHL wannabe running around being stupid. Once you get into the A & B levels you get kids that just finished their college or JR careers and have played at such a high intensity for so long that they have to think about what they do or they'll be over the top. I know I did.... I was too aggressive moving a guy out of the slot. Too aggressive with the stick checks, too aggressive pinching, rolling, and working guys on the boards. I carried the stick high and whacked the legs out of habit.... whack the hands and arms while back checking or forcing the puck carrier wide.... For me, it took one of the guys telling me, "dude, you're not playing in college anymore. Tone your shit down before you hurt someone!" That hit home for me and I "adjusted" my style of play a bit. I can still play that aggressive style if that's how they want to play it, but at 6'4" 270# it can be really intimidating when i do it... I just don't need to unless someone needs an "attitude adjustment".

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I was at a shinny the other day, I stole the puck from someone, he gave me 3 slashes at my shoulder as I skated down the ice so I turned around and knocked him on his ass and he started bitching all the way down the ice, the fact that he wore a cage and I wore nothing had to do with the fact that he is an idiot didn't think about what would happen for his action.

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I've always worn a visor and just like most people I've taken little hits here and there because people aren't paying attention to what they are doing. I don't really have a problem with it, I understand the risk I take. Last Friday in a beer league game I had my back turned while I was fighting for a puck in the corner. Some jerk off lined me up and and put the lights out. Lost two teeth and cut my face. 13 stitches.

D league, They were up 6-2. F*&$ Visors.

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I can understand people who wear half shields. This is a preference. My complaint is an inconsistant application of the rules. I am someone who has worn a full cage my whole life. If a stick hits someone in the face without a cage its a penalty. When it hits someone with a cage, its rare that a penalty is called. From my understanding of the rules any contact with the stick above the shoulder should be an automatic penalty.

thoughts?

-dave

I agree with that, and find it equally annoying.

Regarding the rest of the topic: once i turned of age, I played without a visor. After a few clips and stitches over the years, I added a half-shield. After taking a high stick (from a very errant, wayward stick-lift attempt) behind my visor, cutting my cheek an inch below my eye, I figured it was a fluke, and paid more attention to how snug and secure the visor was attached, as well as my helmet fit on my head. After a second fluke accident saw a goalies stick go behind my visor, cutting my eyelid requiring me the get stitches in my eyelid, including through the cartilage (which cannot be numbed so said the doc), I immediately put a cage on. It was partly because I realized how vulnerable I really was, partly not wanted to go through the pain, but mostly from the doctor explaining how if the stick had hit a few MILLIMETERS lower it would have destroyed my eye ball. It was a very scary ordeal.

What annoys me, is when people assume that because I wear a cage, that I'm going to be careless with my stick, or take liberties I otherwise wouldn't. I haven't changed my game at all, other than getting older, meatier and slower.

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^^^

That's essentially what got me to start playing with a cage. Within the course of a week I had a few sticks come up under the visor. Almost seemed more dangerous than not wearing one. I actually can't count how many times a cage has saved me. Even at pick-up with guys I know, sometimes it happens and they apologize profusely, and I simply tell them it's hockey, and that's why I wear a cage.

I do love when things get heated and guys beak me for wearing one. I just tell them it's because I don't trust shitty players like them. Oh, that gets the blood boiling.

I guess I just don't get the macho hockey culture in that regard.

:)

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^^^

That's essentially what got me to start playing with a cage. Within the course of a week I had a few sticks come up under the visor. Almost seemed more dangerous than not wearing one. I actually can't count how many times a cage has saved me. Even at pick-up with guys I know, sometimes it happens and they apologize profusely, and I simply tell them it's hockey, and that's why I wear a cage.

I do love when things get heated and guys beak me for wearing one. I just tell them it's because I don't trust shitty players like them. Oh, that gets the blood boiling.

I guess I just don't get the macho hockey culture in that regard.

:)

The only guys who get "beaked" for wearing a cage are the ones who play a reckless game or the guy who thinks there is a place in beer league for the agitator. If you play the game right and with respect then noone should ever chirp you for wearing a cage.

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This is why it is funny to hear Pro's saying(or any hockey player for that matter) they never try and hurt any one. LOL

My biggest problem is when said accident happens, the careless douche(usually wearing a full cage) being reckless with his stick doesnt say sorry, ask if your ok or even acknowledged he has done something wrong. Instead hes actually mad at you for bring this matter to light. This lack of respect and total disregard for others well being is what is killing hockey. Shit rolls downhill in the game of life. Which is trickling into every arena in the world.

From my experience: Dum de dum dum dum playing away ....cpl of arrant stick waves near me eyeballs........... Step 1) "hey man, can you watch you're stick plx?....response: "F*%K OFF Pussy! Put a Cage on." Retort: "OK. If thats how you want to play" :facepalm: ..........Step 2)......needless to say he will learn a number of things, and if not he will learn how i feel about it.

Unbelievably this happens way more than i thought it humanly possible.

Now honestly i dont want to play this way but im done with idiots who think putting on skates and a helmet frees them from the responsibilities of being safe and actually making an effort to look out for others your spose to be out there having fun with. Regardless of what protection you wear, it has no bearing on the respect you should have for all the other players no matter what your opinion on this subject may be. Also not using your cage, halfvisor, or what have you as an excuse to actually being careless. Just my 2cents.

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I had a guy stick lift my when I had it waist high with the puck leaving my zone. Still no clue why he did it, but my stick proceeded to come down straight onto his helmet. I still apologized even though I have no idea what he was trying to do.

I generally think it has more to do with the skill level than the cage. I've received some pretty good whacks in the cage from guys with and without cages. Most amazing to me are the guys with visors that whack me and don't see the problem with it.

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It depends on the situation, I suppose.. I play in a very laid back pickup hour for years (minus a long hiatus on my part, but it's the same bunch of guys still). I've played in some low level league games and screwed a cage on and got just as irate when a stick would clang off the cage. As previous folks mentioned, there's no need for sticks to be up in anyone's face; cage, visor, or nothing.

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I just get a kick out of the players who wear visors or nothing and then challenge you to take your facemask off and fight. I've already had substantial surgery done to my head and face and I'm blind in my right eye. I weigh the risk of wearing a visor or no shield in beer leagues against using a mask and I stick with the mask. I'm not a dirty player, I don't like fighting. I keep my stick down, never raise my stick. I get pissed enough if someone hits me in the facemask. It's just not worth it to me. I've seen freak accidents happen and the guy with no mask or visor flips out. Not anything that's anyone's fault. You know the risk of playing at a lower level of hockey and not wearing any protection, why get wound up? Is the advantage of no cage really all that integral to your performance that it's worth the risk?

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I have no respect for the yahoos who wave their sticks up around my head. Cage, visor or nothing, I'm getting pissed if someone wacks me upside the head with a stick. It's the overall lack of concern for others that drives me nuts.

100% agree.

What about the tough guys with cages who like to get their hands up in your face or throw punches at anyone not wearing a cage? I think we should be allowed to kill them.

Circumstances are important in this case. I used to wear a visor and took a puck in the mouth and lost luckily only one tooth. Having no coverage at the time, I paid for the replacement myself and got a cage right away.

What I have noticed, sometimes the guys who wear visors can dish it out but cant take it. I have seen it so many times, a guy with a visor takes a swing at a guy wearing a cage but the second the guy with the cage strikes back - all of a sudden it is wrong because one who wears a cage should not be touching one with a visor for whatever reason. The way I see it, if you can give something out you can expect it back - visor or cage or nothing. I have not had much problems on the ice, but if someone does something that warrants a response, I do not care what they are wearing. (I did give it to one guy wearing a visor while I was in a cage after he hit a guy from behind with no time on the clock left - which he was mad because a guy with a cage took shots at him when he was not wearing a cage - I didn't get suspended even though I probably deserved it while he did because he instigated the whole thing with an unsafe hit from behind, also doesn't hurt that I used a takedown that the ref enjoyed because he was an MMA fan I guess.... lol)

Part of wearing a visor was to be extra careful around other players, and when I took the puck in the mouth I decided that I had to change to a cage because my own one moment of carelessness cost me $1500....

I try to control my stick at all times, no matter who is around anyway. Each event has its own circumstances, if the guy wearing the cage is the instigator then I guess it does make it worse when he is going off on someone wearing a visor but if a player wearing a visor is the instigator, visor or cage - the response is going to be the same.

After the takedown I did to that guy who hit someone on our team from behind, I was on top when an opposing player grabbed my cage from behind and ripped the helmet off my head (cage ripped right out of the sockets). I weigh about 130, the guy I took down was probably about 180 and the guy who came at me from behind was at least 6'4 220 I'd guess (who was yelling that me wearing a cage meant I couldn't touch the guy in the visor). Attacking someone half your size from behind is a lot more of a b**** move than one with a cage attacking one with a visor.

They both got kicked out of the league after that, I got nothing....

an ass is an ass, cage or no cage. Being one with a cage just makes it worse I guess =)

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I have seen it so many times, a guy with a visor takes a swing at a guy wearing a cage but the second the guy with the cage strikes back - all of a sudden it is wrong because one who wears a cage should not be touching one with a visor for whatever reason.

That sounds like a typical beer league play, no matter what type of protection each guy is wearing.

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Yeah, some people are just dicks.

Which, again, is why I wear a cage. ;)

I liken it to wearing a seat belt. I trust myself on the road, but I don't trust others to always do the right thing. Why not protect myself?

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This is kind of like the shoulder pad debate.. some will say you should always wear them and others argue if your not playing in a check league why bother.

I just wish wearing a cage was all that was needed to make you safe from the typical beer leaguer. You almost have to find others who have played at an elite level usually those are the guys who have nothing to prove and just want to enjoy the game like me. I tried to play in a local "A" league game as a favor to a buddy. I never saw so many flag carriers. So much carelessness with the sticks and lack of respect. Guys diving at my legs and trying to chop my stick out of my hands.. I'll stick to my Tuesday night pick up group made up of mostly old college/jr players where we can play a fun yet competitve game with light contact and noone gets hurt.. This way the decision to wear a shield or cage or none becomes a matter of preference again. just my 2c

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