Sprung Hockey

[iceburg19 1]

yeah the transition from ice to roller and then back on the ice sucks,i work at an inline rink ,so i can skate quite a bit but when ice hockey is going i dont really want to touch the inlines for a while so i can keep that ice feel.

[Sprungster 5]

yeah the transition from ice to roller and then back on the ice sucks,i work at an inline rink ,so i can skate quite a bit but when ice hockey is going i dont really want to touch the inlines for a while so i can keep that ice feel.

We have players that are AAA ice and roller high scorers, going back and forth daily...same day even.

This is the best thing's happened to both versions since the onepiece. And for the cost, the frames will do more for your game than any stick on earth.

I'm not an ice player, but if Russian Elite League and NHL players say there's no difference I have to believe them.

I've seen plenty of pro ice down to beer league players put on rollers (our frame) for the first time in their lives and say the same thing.

[pantherfan 0]

We'll have frame-only prices, and also frames plus wheels-and-bearings deals.

Any idea what wheels or bearings you will be putting on them?

[gman 0]

What size wheels?

[Sprungster 5]

We've been using a ton of Labeda Fuzions. Rink Rat has sent wheels to us for testing, also Revision.

We use all 76's so it's easy to find matching wheels. If your store has 76s.

We're really trying to decide whether to have the wheel option, cause it's really complicated becoming an OEM pruchaser at the same time we're trying to get our own product out the door. If we go with wheels we have to do bearings and 8 mm spacers.

The spacer thing is nuts. They're like a dollar a piece at most shops. Nobody can keep them in stock, even the companies. And I've measured the different brands and they're all over the place. When they're too wide, the bearings don't seat and the wheel pops back and forth and ends up with a streatched core. If they're too short they don't support the bearings and they just rattle around in the wheels.

I'm sure you've all heard that little rattle. It's totally common. I've been sent brand new topend Salomon fitness boots for frame tests, and the spacers were rattlers.

I purposly go around and test this one at every shop I go to. This is an industry problem. Too big or too small. Seldom right.

I think the wheel hubs shrink differently, too, which doesn't help.

OOps!! Did I loose my tiny litttle atention span on what the topic was????

I'd like to know some opinions about the wheel thing, cause if we go with wheels only I have to make a new bigger box, too. If we do both, the packaging and stocking at stores is tough. Like how much different versions can a shop afford.

We're sorta looking for a price for the frame only that leaves room guys to go out and find their own deals of wheels, etc. There's so many different non flat situations out there that nobody owns 76s. Maybe Mission's new 80/76 set up will get them in stores at least.

[Thockey17 1]

Keith, nice to have you aboard talking about the product. Im sorry if i missed it, but what exactly are they made out of to withstand impacts that aluminum would not? Im guessing some special alloy?

I look forward to checking out the frames as one of the kids around here must have a pair somehow. If not, Iceburg im coming over :P

Pretty cool how technology is coming back to the flat chassis'. I remember skating on a Mission Proto? with the flat chassis playing in AIRHS tournaments, and reading Inline Magazine's CJ Yoder interview during downtime. Man i feel old.

[iceburg19 1]

Thockey17,ill tell ya i should have picked up a pair in Detroit during aau,the pro shop was selling them ,but the wife was watching my every move knowing i wanted to spend a little money on some new equipment,plus the kids were like hey dad can you get me this can you get me that.im glad i had a chance to test them and know what im getting when they come to long island.this is a great idea behind these frames and im impressed with the way they felt.to explain in few words to some one that hasnt had the oppertunity to try them would be this,a smooth skate with tight controlable turning,great rebound(probably explosive with rink rats)each stride felt like i had better push off.it was like skateing on fresh cut ice.i would support these frames 100%.

[Sprungster 5]

Keith, nice to have you aboard talking about the product. Im sorry if i missed it, but what exactly are they made out of to withstand impacts that aluminum would not? Im guessing some special alloy?

I look forward to checking out the frames as one of the kids around here must have a pair somehow. If not, Iceburg im coming over  :P

Pretty cool how technology is coming back to the flat chassis'.  I remember skating on a Mission Proto? with the flat chassis playing in AIRHS tournaments, and reading Inline Magazine's CJ Yoder interview during downtime. Man i feel old.

Hey Thockey

Q1; They aren't alloy- they're the best plastic in the world that doesn't go straight into fighters (like in the air)-- that's available to us humans at less than the cost of magnesium per pound.

I wish I'd found it last year to use on the old hockey design, which all of the guys at Detroit were on. They have a tendency to break the back rocker if you're superslammed into the wall or do an acrobatic endo and auger the rears. Of course, you can replace the rocker in about 2 minutes and you're on your way again (old ones come with spares and a year guarantee--no questions).

This is way better than doing the same to your aluminum frames, which you can only toss, or learn to get by on three wheels, like is so common to see. The new design rocker makes the old one look like a tutu. We've also got pairs of the original design out there that have shown up daily for more than 2-300 hours of hard work. The boots have turned to rubish and the frames are still ticking. Some guys can break em some can't. The ones that break em just fix em and get back to it

The new design also skates way better (hard to believe) than the old. I think iceburg probably skated on new ones if they were white or black and white.

My first skates were Proto Vs with the sure grip all 76. They were super oldschool, with the all leather boot. That's REAL leather.

And then there's CJ. Him and his family are a bunch of real gents. He and Jamie were also among the very first test drivers of my (then new) aluminum HiLo prototype. Walter Frazier couldn't believe anybody could like anything as much as they spouted. So he sent them to JP Bilstein and Ditto. They are still buds, I hope.

Years are merciless. They just keep on marching all over you. I was relatively young when I made my first hockey prototype in '98. TICK, TICK!!!!!

[Thockey17 1]

Now that you mention the plastic, i can see it clearly. I rendered a Red Star Alloy completely useless about a week ago by slamming backwards into the boards. Also happened to tear 3 wheels completely off the hubs. That was a first for me in quite a few years.

Like i said before, i cant wait to see them. I buy into all the hype(multiple vibes, sensors, etc.) so it should be cool to see how the Sprungs size up to the others.

The old old old Mission Proto's were classic. I remember mine up 'til the day that my tendon guard ripped off. I had the leather ones with the E2 chassis and the US Inline logo on the front. Heavy as a cinderblock, but took any abuse thrown at them. Good times.

[Sprungster 5]

Now that you mention the plastic, i can see it clearly. I rendered a Red Star Alloy completely useless about a week ago by slamming backwards into the boards. Also happened to tear 3 wheels completely off the hubs. That was a first for me in quite a few years.

Like i said before, i cant wait to see them. I buy into all the hype(multiple vibes, sensors, etc.) so it should be cool to see how the Sprungs size up to the others.

The old old old Mission Proto's were classic. I remember mine up 'til the day that my tendon guard ripped off. I had the leather ones with the E2 chassis and the US Inline logo on the front. Heavy as a cinderblock, but took any abuse thrown at them. Good times.

Anybody else have aluminum frame stories? We're new, so that's totally unacceptable to comanies, and I think I may have removed it up to the point of legs breaking off at the same time. I have a bunch of Aggro buds I want to turn loose on the street with them. See what some 10-15 foot drops do.

A few aluminum frame anedotes would be lovely to read.

[LoXish 0]

Not really an aluminum frame antidote... but as far as the topic of selling the chassis with wheels -- I hate the idea... anyone who is buying aftermarket chassis are going to have the wherewithall and desire to buy their wheels and bearings on their own, to their specifications.

[althoma1 575]

I also think that packaging the chassis with wheels isn't the best way to go. Different people have different tastes in wheels and need to use different durometers based on the surface they are playing on, size, weight and overall personal preference. I've been using the Tuuk rocker chassis now for years and while 76mm wheels are a bit more challenging to find than Hi lo sizes (80mm and 72mm) they are out there.

Personally I'd rather just buy the chassis alone and then add wheels I already own or buy my own wheels seperately. Now a coupon (either paper or an e-coupon) that provides a discount at a retailer or e-tailer for wheels or wheels via a certain manufacturer would be a nice bonus, but not a necessity.

[Joker518 0]

Not really an aluminum frame antidote... but as far as the topic of selling the chassis with wheels -- I hate the idea... anyone who is buying aftermarket chassis are going to have the wherewithall and desire to buy their wheels and bearings on their own, to their specifications.

I totally agree. Anyone even considering getting a different chassis mounted on their boots will have their own wheel and bearing preferences... Unless you're able to provide them with a sensational price break. Selling just the frames will eliminate a certain degree of confusion and make buying stock easier for local shops.

[BrunoZ 0]

Same here, I'm buying wheels all the time and I'm way too picky about my bearings, so there's a good chance that no bundle would fit me and/or that I already have loads of wheels/bearings to put on the new chassis when I get it.

Another question to Keith / Sprungster : could you give us the dimensions of the chassis (like front to rear axles, overall length with wheels, width at the axle and so on ...) ? Thx.

[Sprungster 5]

Another question to Keith / Sprungster : could you give us the dimensions of the chassis (like front to rear axles, overall length with wheels, width at the axle and so on ...) ? Thx.

The wheelbase of the medium is 9 5/8", which is a little longer than an old HiLo with the wheels almost touching. The space between wheels 1&2 and 3&4 is for the pivot pin, which is what connects the two rocker arms together. The space between wheels 2&3 is so they don't touch when they move up into the inside of the frame when downward pressure is applied.

The new Mission 80/76 has to be a bit longer than the old 80/72. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't the same as mine.

The wheelbase of the large is 101/2", which is pretty much the standard. It's easy to engineer cause there's 1/2" between each 76 mm wheel, which gives me all the space in the world to do the job--and make the rockers a bit heftier for bigger guys and the increased leverage caused by the rocker arms being longer than the medium.

The outside dimension of the rocker, which is the same as the axle, is 1.455".

The inside dimension of the rocker, from one bearing face to the other, is .95". This is where the axle locks down in the nut, and it won't tighten any more than that. This dimension is the result of a whole lot of research on the width of the space between the bearing contact on one side of the hub to the same place on the opposite bearing.

This is probably the only standard dimension in the roller industry. All wheel manufacturers try to keep it there, which isn't easy considering the different formulas of materials used for the hubs, with shrinkage, moulds, etc, etc.

Having the axle lock down at exactly that width keeps it from caving in the bearings, which causes bearing drag and ruins them eventually.

Many aluminum frames are bowed (or out) at the bearing face, so that the bearing face of the frame doesn't allign flat against the bearings. If you look at the center of a bearing, the only part that is supposed to touch is the little ring sticking out in the center.

The distance from the floor to the bottom of the boot with our frame is a little taller than standard without weight on it. When you stand in it, it drops down to the average in the industry. When you push off or your weight shifts front to rear, the frame lowers toward the floor accordingly.

When you're on it, you're inside the suspension. All four wheels are pushing down, looking for the floor.

The wheels (except for the center two, for upswing) on my OG prototype were all a fraction from touching, so the wheelbase was shorter. That was a different patent that hadn't been awarded yet, so the current frame is like I described above. I've since gotten that patent and can put the wheels right next to each other. I also know a lot more from experience, so I have a couple of ways to close the wheels up. I can do an all 80 with minimum wheel space a couple of different ways. I'm not sure if I'll do one, though. The all 76 is lighter cause the wheels weigh less. The new model is probably the same overall speed as the all 80, but with a much quicker turn and everything else the suspension does for you.

Probably more than you wanted to know!

[ViperJQ 0]

Hey sprungster,

When the frames are released, will there be an opportunity for team discounts/sponsorships. I know alot of our ice guys are having problems with the turning aspect of the sport. We are going to participate in Narch, Torhs, Topcat, and ECHO next year and need to find something to improve our skaters.

[Sprungster 5]

Hey sprungster,

When the frames are released, will there be an opportunity for team discounts/sponsorships.  I know alot of our ice guys are having problems with the turning aspect of the sport.  We are going to participate in Narch, Torhs, Topcat, and ECHO next year and need to find something to improve our skaters.

We've had a lot of requests for team package deals from around the country and they will be available. We are trying to figure how to set this set up with retailers. It's a bit of a delima, cause we aren't retailers ourselves, and we certainly don't want to compete with them. It might be a team request that goes through your retailer to us, and we give him a package price that leaves him room to still make something while the team gets a good deal.

If it's before you have a local retailer, it could be done through one of the dealers already in place in SoCal.

Sponsorships are another thing entirely. We have to get established better before we can can sponsor teams around the country with uniform packages along with the frames.

We've had a ton of requests for these. We have a couple of "factory" teams out of San Diego, but compared to the big companies, we're pretty invisible, and way poor. They're pretty much volunteers, and get themselves to tournaments.

[malcb33 97]

Sprungster- What is the weight differents between your frames and say a older style beemer frame? I am not a weight freak like alot of people, but does look like these would add a little weight to the skate? If the frames are as good as they sound, the will more than make up for a little added weight.

Also because these are going to be an aftermarket frame (at least at the moment) have you thought about using a standard Tuuk (for example) frame hole pattern on your frames? This may make it alot easier to switch frames. Also maybe some directional gauges on the frame the may help a not so experianced LHS employee install the frames?

Just some ideas?

[Sprungster 5]

Sprungster- What is the weight differents between your frames and say a older style beemer frame?  I am not a weight freak like alot of people, but does look like these would add a little weight to the skate? If the frames are as good as they sound, the will more than make up for a little added weight.

Also because these are going to be an aftermarket frame (at least at the moment) have you thought about using a standard Tuuk (for example) frame hole pattern on your frames? This may make it alot easier to switch frames.  Also maybe some directional gauges on the frame the may help a not so experianced LHS employee install the frames?

Just some ideas?

Funy you should ask about the weight. I just went down to my local post office to use their digital scale, and, surprise, it was way broken. Somebody probably weighed the elephant they were sending.

The old model was about 7.8 ounces without wheels. The new one is probably around the same. When you add the wheels, mine with all 76s is probably comparable to the alloy beemer with all 80s.

We've never had any weight complaint from the pickiest of our pro skaters.

As far as the holes go, every manufacturer uses a different patern, due to the design of the individual toe plates. I moved the holes in the new model to make them more accessable.

We send easy to follow mounting instructions to shops and skaters. I have an email set up for this too.

I have found that it makes it easier and quicker to mount them if I take the rocker arms out of the frame. This also keeps the drill or the drill head from marring the sides of the rocker arms if you get a little sloppy. It even lets the mount machine get in there easier.

They're easy to R&R, and it actually helps you get to know what you're going to have under your feet a bit better. These are REAL MACHINES with moving parts and the everything.

We have the long thin mount tool for inlines that also helps a lot.

I've mounted a TON of these at home without a mount machine using 6-32 T nuts and screws. I use shorter screws in the front and longer in the rear. You can also check to see if your ice shop has any of the Graf mounting screws and inside nuts. They're great cause they don't ozidize and rust as fast as the T nuts. I some times coat the T nuts with fingernail posish to prevent the rust.

Speaking of Graf, I also tend to use only four screws in the front instead of six when I mount them this way. The screws and nuts are stronger than rivets and six aren't necessary. When you get a chance look at a Graf ice skate. There's a lot of unused holes. Of course they're just Grafs so they probably don't know what they're doing!

One more thing about these skates.They're probably one of the most abused and stressed low/no maintainence machines in existance. The stress that heavy (350 and clumsy) hockey players puts on these is probably the equivilent of two and a half tons on a reg size dirt bike on a rough course. Their tough!!

[iceburg19 1]

hey,i like my grafs,besides i did save all the t-screws when i put the sensor chassis on,just wondering what boot would you say fit the sprung frames best in your opinion.--as far as easy mounting,wide skate bottom.i know you had ccm in Detroit any reason you went with a ccm boot?

[BrunoZ 0]

Thanks for the response Keith, that was all I wanted to know indeed. I'm more and more curious about your chassis. Any way to ship one in France when the new ones will be out ?

[Sprungster 5]

Thanks for the response Keith, that was all I wanted to know indeed. I'm more and more curious about your chassis. Any way to ship one in France when the new ones will be out ?

Yes, pm me your address.

[Sprungster 5]

Questions.

The top tier of most companiy's boot comes with a high end alloy frame. Below that they come with a lower quality frame.

Assuming it's as good as everybody says, would you rather see our frame on the high end product than the conventional alloy frame?

If you were buying the second or third tier of your favorite boot, would you pay a $15-$20 "high performance" premium to get our frame instead? Like the performance packages that come on cars.

[LoXish 0]

Depends on the performance of your frame, I suppose.

[BrunoZ 0]

First you'll need a good paint job and BS marketing words like "Pure Carbonite" or "W-Flex System" written all over it ... we live in a wonderful world.

As far as I know, all my players would be willing to pay 20 more $/€ to get a better frame on their skates. I'd pay 50 easily. They just have to be convinced that it is better.

Now how to convince the big brands to put your frames on their boots ...