Skate Sharpening 101

[ponder 0]

Just brainstorming here but what if the pitch (rear) knob were at a significantly wrong height. Presumably the person sharpening would make the edges "even" by adjusting the two front knobs and presumably he would use the flat (middle section) of the blade to make edge measurements. The holder would then be adjusted such that edges of the same height were achieved in the plane where the middle section of the blade is. However, the toe and heel are in a different plane and their edges would not be even. This would also happen if there were "droop" from the weight of the boot as you mentioned. See the exaggerated for emphasis drawing below to see what I mean (EDIT: I drew this for the FBV case... I forgot this isn't an FBV thread... the same would be true for ROH):

Exactly what I was thinking, though illustrated in a far more professional manner :) If the blade was level along the long dimension (toe to heel), but just a bit off level along the short dimension (sharp edge to holder), then you could adjust it so the sharpening looked not *TOO* bad through most of the blade, but at the toe and heel the sharpening would be very noticeably off center, since as you mentioned they're on a different plane. With an ROH sharpening you could get it so the edges were even/level with one another even with the blade on an angle like this, but the deepest part of the hollow would be slightly off center. However, you'd really notice the problem at the heel/toe. Basically it would look like this with an ROH sharpening:

If the edges aren't level when you start, then you need to do something to fix that. Simply sharpening uneven edges is going to give you sharp, uneven edges.

Agreed, not saying he should leave it as is, just trying to help diagnose the problem.

[AfftonDad 88]

Exactly what I was thinking, though illustrated in a far more professional manner :) If the blade was level along the long dimension (toe to heel), but just a bit off level along the short dimension (sharp edge to holder), then you could adjust it so the sharpening looked not *TOO* bad through most of the blade, but at the toe and heel the sharpening would be very noticeably off center, since as you mentioned they're on a different plane. With an ROH sharpening you could get it so the edges were even/level with one another even with the blade on an angle like this, but the deepest part of the hollow would be slightly off center. However, you'd really notice the problem at the heel/toe. Basically it would look like this with an ROH sharpening:

I think a few sanity checks that this MAY be what is occuring (although I don't think it would be definitive proof that it is if all three are TRUE) would be 1) Is the heel AND toe on the same skate off on the SAME edge (inside or outside) AND 2) Assuming you mount both skates in the same direction, does it happen on the inside edge of the heel/toe on one skate AND on the outside edge of the heel/toe on the other skate AND 3) If you switch the mounting direction does it change from inside edge to outside edge and vice versa on both skates. I think if any of these are not the case it probably rules out the non-parallel blade theory.

[Chadd 916]

it's really not all that hard to fix guys. Grind down the high spots to level and put a good hollow on it. It's highly unlikely that the pitch knob has anything to do with the problem, unless he was screwing around with it. Some people have an unhealthy fixation with that knob for some reason.

[aarondevera 0]

Agreed. The pitch knob seems to only create paranoia. I've been using the Tri-Lie jig for a while now. I've never touched the pitch knob, regardless of ROH of FBV.

[AfftonDad 88]

I put a line on my pitch knob and the holder base so that I can KNOW that it hasn't been changed.

[Chadd 916]

I put a line on my pitch knob and the holder base so that I can KNOW that it hasn't been changed.

good idea if you have kids around the sharpener.

[sonsplayhockey 0]

I"d like to learn how to take a cross sectional casting of the blade edge. For nothing other than to educate myself and others. Hmm. My wife is a dentist. I wonder if I can use some of her stuff and then slice it?

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

You guys are seriously overthinking/complicating this process.

[rachael7 1]

You guys are seriously overthinking/complicating this process.

No doubt. Skate sharpening takes a little knowledge and a good touch, but it isn't brain surgery!

[aarondevera 0]

That's all it is, really. Problem is, a lot of people KNOW how to sharpen skates, but you can't apply that knowledge without good touch.

[forbs02 20]

Are your edges level front, middle, and back?

Do you have a nice shine in the hollow of the blade?

Is your skater happy and do they come back for more sharpenings?

Odds are good that you are doing a good job. Practice makes perfect.

I'm sure this has been posted before, but I'm going to repost it because it has a lot of good info (disregard the Blademaster bias if it bothers you: http://www.blademaster.ca/lockerpdf/StaffordCoffey.pdf

[sonsplayhockey 0]

As a novice sharpener, I think it is a good thing to understand the mechanics behind the sharpening process and how things are affected by adjustments. knowledge is a good thing. Experiance takes time.

I'm trying to satisfy the curiosity I have (I'm an Engineer by education).

No, my kids are not complaining. Or I should say, they are only complaining when they mess up their edges themselves.

[AfftonDad 88]

I"d like to learn how to take a cross sectional casting of the blade edge. For nothing other than to educate myself and others. Hmm. My wife is a dentist. I wonder if I can use some of her stuff and then slice it?

The guy in the FBV thread that was doing the castings user name was "Jimmy". I think he said he made plastic castings and did cross sections with them and examined them under a microscope. I'm with you though...knowledge is (generally) a good thing. If I had the resources to do the cross sections I would do it (once or twice) just out of curiosity.

[jimmy 194]

The guy in the FBV thread that was doing the castings user name was "Jimmy". I think he said he made plastic castings and did cross sections with them and examined them under a microscope. I'm with you though...knowledge is (generally) a good thing. If I had the resources to do the cross sections I would do it (once or twice) just out of curiosity.

Yes, it was me. And if you don't think the rear dial makes a difference in how the FBV comes out, viewing a casting under microscope easily shows what the various knob adjustments do to how the FBV is angled in the runner. Angle of attack of the runner should be centered and level with the FBV impression in the stone.

[sonsplayhockey 0]

After a few months of my Blackstone sharpener I've been getting better. One thing I've learned is that when changing from a radius hollow to FBV or back again, I needed to do more passes than a simple sharpening. More than I thought. I had a couple times where I did not make enough passes and the results were horrible. Another thing was to dress the wheel more and get the old shape off. My recent incident left my son's blades feeling like they were flat and I did it before a game (broke my own cardinal rule).

I really wish I had a cross grinder at home. I went and had my skates crossground at a Play-it-again sports then took the skates home and put an FBV on it and it was so much easier to tell that the centering was there when I did the witness marks. I"m still wanting to do the casting to verify my pitch like Jimmy says. I never touched the pitch and it's off from the little block I got from Blackstone. But I don't want to touch it till I can really see what's going on. I have a 10 year old set of tacks I can play around with.

thx

David

[AfftonDad 88]

One thing I've learned is that when changing from a radius hollow to FBV or back again, I needed to do more passes than a simple sharpening. More than I thought. I had a couple times where I did not make enough passes and the results were horrible. Another thing was to dress the wheel more and get the old shape off.

When I know that I'm switching from ROH to FBV or vice versa or on a brand new pair of skates or if someone other than me did the previous sharpening, I mark the bottom of the blade with a black magic marker so that I can KNOW that the previous sharpening is ENTIRELY gone when all of the black mark is gone. Similarly, I'll take more off of the wheel when switching from ROH to FBV and vice versa, by looking at the black mark left by the Fine Shine (or black magic marker on the wheel).

[Chadd 916]

Most skaters will wear down their inside edges more than the outside edges. That's usually the cause of the edges being out of square.

[seabird 0]

just wanted to share my first few weeks experience with the x01 i bought used a few weeks ago for $500 with the tri lie holder - it had hardly been used as the PO just didnt have the time to use - he had a few kids in rep hockey and coached. set up - std orange wheel with 1/2" hollow, BR200 level. i practised on 3-4 pairs of old kid skates i had lying around making most of the adjustments with the 2 front adjusters. the only issue i've had is with the spinner - its does not rotate much when i dress so i've loosened it up slightly so it does rotate. not a big deal but now i leave the cover off all the time just to make sure its spinning. i purchased a few fbv spinners but wanted to get the 1/2" going good before i try them out. i also bought that calibration block which seems like a waste of time. for the x01 its about 13mm thick and i'm lower than that...not sure if i should be concerned or not but more importantly my test skates have turned out good...i think i.e. the BR200 is dead level back, middle, front. this week i'm in between games with my kids so i sharpened their skates and my old pair (current pair is fbv and they are sharp) and took them out to public skating tonight. overall was very happy with the results. the kids commented that theirs felt good and mine felt great and i'm keen on trying out the fbv next go around. i do have a few questions though that maybe someone can help me with

- what is the difference with the ruby wheel i.e. benefits and/or when should i use

- if im lower than default set up i.e. calibration block...should i be concerned?

- i noticed that my trailing sparks are not always long - can someone explain what the different sparks mean i.e. long, short

- i get some black marks on the wheel after a sharpening - what is this and do i need to remove completely when i dress next time around?

- when i go back/forth between fbv and std roh, how can you tell if the wheel is properly dressed

overall i'm pretty happy with the x01 so far. it should suit my needs pretty well which will be for me, my 2 kids and the occasional buddy.

[AfftonDad 88]

- what is the difference with the ruby wheel i.e. benefits and/or when should i use

The ruby wheels are multi-grit, 60,70,80 grit. The orange wheels are 80 grit. I feel like I get a better finished sharpening when I'm done with the ruby wheels. I have several orange wheels and every now and then I go back to one just to try it to see if I still notice the difference. Every time I feel like it feels better with the ruby wheel although I think the difference is slight and it may just be in my head. The reason I switched to ruby is because I noticed all the shops around me used Ruby. J.R. and/or Chad could probably provide more concrete info on the difference.

- if im lower than default set up i.e. calibration block...should i be concerned?

For what it is worth, I have the calibration block as well and I am maybe +/- 5-10 clicks away from the block setting on most pairs of skates. I consider this just normal variation from runner to runner. I leave the pitch knob at the block setting for these cases.

- i noticed that my trailing sparks are not always long - can someone explain what the different sparks mean i.e. long, short

When the wheel is biting more (i.e. grinding more) it throws a longer plum of sparks. When the sparks are more dispersed it is closer (or at) where it needs to be and you are ready for your next adjustment (or finishing pass as the case may be). Also different types and quality of runners will produce longer plumes of sparks than others.

- i get some black marks on the wheel after a sharpening - what is this and do i need to remove completely when i dress next time around?

I really only get black marks when I'm using fine shine. If you are using fine shine (or something similar), then you should expect the black marks. The wheels are porous and rough though so you don't need to remove ALL of the line as it has kind of "soaked in". However, if you want to be sure that you have completly dressed the wheel, getting rid of the black line entirely would ensure that (however, it would probably be a little overkill). When I put on a new wheel for the FIRST TIME I put on a black line with a magic marker and get rid of it completley so that I can know that I have completely dressed the wheel. Another trick for dressing a wheel for the first time is to lightly touch your finger to the spinning wheel. By doing this, you can often feel the "out of round" and/or wobble problems that can be present in a wheel that has not been fully dressed.

- when i go back/forth between fbv and std roh, how can you tell if the wheel is properly dressed

Probably just experience, however you could use the black line trick above if you wanted to be completely certain. I rarely change from FBV to ROH but when I do, I make sure that the black line is completely gone. Even when I'm going from one FBV to another, I watch the black line and make sure it gets a little narrower so I can guage how much of the wheel I have dressed off. Similarly, when I am doing a pair of skates that I didn't do the time before or when I am changing from one hollow to another, I put a black mark on the bottom of the runner, so that I can be certain that the old sharpening is COMPLETELY gone when I am done with it.

People who sharpen (or have sharpened) for a living could probably provide more (and/or different/better) advice on all of these points.

[seabird 0]

- what is the difference with the ruby wheel i.e. benefits and/or when should i use

The ruby wheels are multi-grit, 60,70,80 grit. The orange wheels are 80 grit. I feel like I get a better finished sharpening when I'm done with the ruby wheels. I have several orange wheels and every now and then I go back to one just to try it to see if I still notice the difference. Every time I feel like it feels better with the ruby wheel although I think the difference is slight and it may just be in my head. The reason I switched to ruby is because I noticed all the shops around me used Ruby. J.R. and/or Chad could probably provide more concrete info on the difference.

- if im lower than default set up i.e. calibration block...should i be concerned?

For what it is worth, I have the calibration block as well and I am maybe +/- 5-10 clicks away from the block setting on most pairs of skates. I consider this just normal variation from runner to runner. I leave the pitch knob at the block setting for these cases.

- i noticed that my trailing sparks are not always long - can someone explain what the different sparks mean i.e. long, short

When the wheel is biting more (i.e. grinding more) it throws a longer plum of sparks. When the sparks are more dispersed it is closer (or at) where it needs to be and you are ready for your next adjustment (or finishing pass as the case may be). Also different types and quality of runners will produce longer plumes of sparks than others.

- i get some black marks on the wheel after a sharpening - what is this and do i need to remove completely when i dress next time around?

I really only get black marks when I'm using fine shine. If you are using fine shine (or something similar), then you should expect the black marks. The wheels are porous and rough though so you don't need to remove ALL of the line as it has kind of "soaked in". However, if you want to be sure that you have completly dressed the wheel, getting rid of the black line entirely would ensure that (however, it would probably be a little overkill). When I put on a new wheel for the FIRST TIME I put on a black line with a magic marker and get rid of it completley so that I can know that I have completely dressed the wheel. Another trick for dressing a wheel for the first time is to lightly touch your finger to the spinning wheel. By doing this, you can often feel the "out of round" and/or wobble problems that can be present in a wheel that has not been fully dressed.

- when i go back/forth between fbv and std roh, how can you tell if the wheel is properly dressed

Probably just experience, however you could use the black line trick above if you wanted to be completely certain. I rarely change from FBV to ROH but when I do, I make sure that the black line is completely gone. Even when I'm going from one FBV to another, I watch the black line and make sure it gets a little narrower so I can guage how much of the wheel I have dressed off. Similarly, when I am doing a pair of skates that I didn't do the time before or when I am changing from one hollow to another, I put a black mark on the bottom of the runner, so that I can be certain that the old sharpening is COMPLETELY gone when I am done with it.

People who sharpen (or have sharpened) for a living could probably provide more (and/or different/better) advice on all of these points.

appreciate you sharing your experience. i tried my first fbv this w-end 95/75 which is the same profile i had done by national sports which i really liked. i was a bit worried that i was going to slipping and sliding all over the ice, but it was good. not perfect but good. didn't quite feel as if i had as much bite as the first time so i am going to redress the wheel and redo them. i was a little scepital this little spinner was going to give me an fbv profile, but it did and i'm relieved to know it works...making the purchase worth while.

[BenderHockey 127]

Another trick for dressing a wheel for the first time is to lightly touch your finger to the spinning wheel. By doing this, you can often feel the "out of round" and/or wobble problems that can be present in a wheel that has not been fully dressed.

This has bad news written all over it. NEVER a good idea to touch the wheel.

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

I'll tell you a story; I used to do that little trick, until someone mentioned my name and got my attention, which distracted me.

My thumb followed the wheel and hit between the guard and the spinning wheel.

Never again.

[AfftonDad 88]

Yeah... I had reservations about posting that. I was always afraid to do it until a guy that works in a machine shop (who's skates I sharpen) told me they do it all the time in his shop. That of course doesn't make it safe, it just alleviated my fear that the wheel would immediately grab my finger and carry it into the guard. An X-01 would probably do a lot less damage than a big comercial machine but the potential for hurting yourself probably still exists.

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

I used to do it, but that one time it didn't work made me stop.

[raganblink 82]

I used to do it, but that one time it didn't work made me stop.

Same... 7 stitches later, never again. Another incident when I went to dress the wheel a kid knocked over a rack. One nervous twitch later and I almost lost my middle finger, somehow it didn't sever my tendon... Yeah screw the wheel.