Therma Blade

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

http://www.exploratorium.com/hockey/ice2.html

I had heard about something like that a few years ago... I think it's pretty important to note that ice is one of the most puzzling structures out there, and as odd as it may seem, we really dont know a whole lot about it.

However, if an experiment were to be conducted such that a standard blade and a non-standard blade went through some sort of testing for resistance, what we know about ice is irrelevant, the data would serve only as a comparative demonstration, and some sort of % (dis)advantage could be derived from that.

[jimmy 194]

http://www.exploratorium.com/hockey/ice2.html

I had heard about something like that a few years ago... I think it's pretty important to note that ice is one of the most puzzling structures out there, and as odd as it may seem, we really dont know a whole lot about it.

However, if an experiment were to be conducted such that a standard blade and a non-standard blade went through some sort of testing for resistance, what we know about ice is irrelevant, the data would serve only as a comparative demonstration, and some sort of % (dis)advantage could be derived from that.

Yes, it would be very easy for an independent lab to conduct controlled tests. Much different than giving random people the product to test and get a "seat of the pants" anecdotal response. You would think the manufacturer would have independent testing done, as positive results could certainly help sell their product.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

or maybe they did and threw away the data.

[DarkStar50 679]

Accepting the product for NHL use is far different than endorsing the product or signing off on it's significance.

Dan Craig was concerned if the product would damage or cause adverse conditions on the ice for NHLers. He felt it would not. You are right, this was was in no way an endorsement of the product.

[helper 0]

Until they can do an impartial, double blind study using qualified people I will be very skeptical. Although you feel that one blade is performing different than the other there is no way to measure your feelings for accuracy. Some "feeling" can be just that - a physcological feeling (like a placebo effect). I am always skeptical of claims until they are backed up scientifically, using actual engineers or doctors that specialize in that field, doing controled tests. I have seen to many infommercials blow smoke up peoples ass using a doctor who is actually a dentist (or some other doctor and getting paid alot of money) discussing something they do not specialize in. It's like asking a plumber to discuss audio/visual equipment. He might have a little idea but that is it.

I'm glad to see there is some discussion on this thread again. The prototypes I had been skating on failed several skates ago. But the TB guys warned us of that. I would not argue that there could be a placebo effect. But I got at least 10 games on my blades and at least 4 other players that I know that were part of the testing did as well. They work better. Period. Smoother, faster off the line, stronger turning. It's not smoke up anyones ass. The science of it is a good discussion but having been part of the product testing I know what is real.

Not all the players that were testing back in August felt the same effects. But everyone that I heard talking felt 'some' benefits.

I will still definitely buy the product when it gets in the store.

[Ogie Oglethorpe 14]

Naturally we'd expect the production skates to last longer than 10 uses, but..... you'd still be interested even at a $300 plus price tag (to be added to the cost of the skates)?

[DarkStar50 679]

I think he means he skated on TB 10 games. I believe they will last longer than 10 games.

[helper 0]

Naturally we'd expect the production skates to last longer than 10 uses, but..... you'd still be interested even at a $300 plus price tag (to be added to the cost of the skates)?

I don't need new skates. So 399.00 (in Edmonton) for a set of blades doesn't bother me. I think that if the stores selling them can figure out how to have a demo program they will sell for sure.

The production model batteries are supposed to get at least 300 charges. So for me thats about 3 years

[chk hrd 164]

Until they can do an impartial, double blind study using qualified people I will be very skeptical. Although you feel that one blade is performing different than the other there is no way to measure your feelings for accuracy. Some "feeling" can be just that - a physcological feeling (like a placebo effect). I am always skeptical of claims until they are backed up scientifically, using actual engineers or doctors that specialize in that field, doing controled tests. I have seen to many infommercials blow smoke up peoples ass using a doctor who is actually a dentist (or some other doctor and getting paid alot of money) discussing something they do not specialize in. It's like asking a plumber to discuss audio/visual equipment. He might have a little idea but that is it.

I'm glad to see there is some discussion on this thread again. The prototypes I had been skating on failed several skates ago. But the TB guys warned us of that. I would not argue that there could be a placebo effect. But I got at least 10 games on my blades and at least 4 other players that I know that were part of the testing did as well. They work better. Period. Smoother, faster off the line, stronger turning. It's not smoke up anyones ass. The science of it is a good discussion but having been part of the product testing I know what is real.

Not all the players that were testing back in August felt the same effects. But everyone that I heard talking felt 'some' benefits.

I will still definitely buy the product when it gets in the store.

you skated on them 10 different times. what was the conditions during the skating? Ice Temperatures, Air Temperatures, Quality of teams you played? What level of a player are you and the other test subjects? Was it on the boot you normally skate in with the same radius, pitch, hollow? There are alot of variables that were not controlled.

I am not arguing that you felt you did better, but feeling is a subjective thing and cannot be measured. They very well could have made your skating better, or in the very least made you FEEL that you were skating better. But by how much and to what extent. If it does work, will it bennefit all types of skaters or only high end skaters?

I guess at my age I have become more skeptical than my younger years. There are alot of people selling things that they claim work (magnet therapy, special water, etc) without providing actual proof. As a wise man once said "There is a sucker born every minute."

[Gongshow11 1]

gimmick just like t blades. I can guarantee the nhlers stick with what they have, as every ice is different, and managing the therma would be too difficult. And we thought t blades would be in the show cuz they say to reduce friction. I've never seen more than 4 guys wear them, not including ron maclean

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

The science of it is a good discussion but having been part of the product testing I know what is real.

BULLSHIT. subjective information cannot be passed off as fact. period. there are no data that point to there being a significant increase in anything. none. show me some real numbers, comparative or absolute and i'll listen, but you cannot pass of your opinion as being true.

You know what? i bet you if i flipped the batteries before the holder was isntalled, or snipped a wire, you'd say the same damn stuff.

[santiclaws 0]

I'm glad to see there is some discussion on this thread again. The prototypes I had been skating on failed several skates ago. But the TB guys warned us of that. I would not argue that there could be a placebo effect. But I got at least 10 games on my blades and at least 4 other players that I know that were part of the testing did as well. They work better. Period. Smoother, faster off the line, stronger turning. It's not smoke up anyones ass. The science of it is a good discussion but having been part of the product testing I know what is real.

Err, no offense, but your brain telling you what is "real" is not reliable evidence of anything except that you have a normally-functioning brain. What you describe - you were told a product would improve performance, and you firmly believe that it did after trying it - is the exact scenario where a placebo effect would be demonstrated. Being aware that a placebo effect is possible doesn't really reduce its effects.

Your subjective feeling that there is a significant difference, or the feeling of 20 other guys, no matter how strong that feeling may be, tells us very little about whether there actually is a difference. And now that it appears that the science behind the very idea of the product is all wrong, I am pretty skeptical.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

And now that it appears that the science behind the very idea of the product is all wrong, I am pretty skeptical.

no its right... it's just not right enough. my example earlier was take a 740g boot compared to a 750g boot. yes, its lighter, and less power (in a physics sense) will be exerted, but it's incredibly insignificant.

[santiclaws 0]

And now that it appears that the science behind the very idea of the product is all wrong, I am pretty skeptical.

no its right... it's just not right enough. my example earlier was take a 740g boot compared to a 750g boot. yes, its lighter, and less power (in a physics sense) will be exerted, but it's incredibly insignificant.

Well, according to the linked article, ice is slippery not because the top layer melts at all. If that's true, a blade which melts the ice better/quicker is pretty much pointless.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

two schools of thought, neither has been disproven. regardless of which school of thought there's experimental data from a paper in 1974 that shows the theory of the therma blade does infact work, but does not show demonstratively that it works with both a) any significance or b)beneficially in the temperature range therma blade claims to be hitting.

in that temp range the linked article would claim it would be damaging. the older school of thought that therma blade uses doesnt have data to support it's benefits in that temperature range, however there is evidence that it holds true at temperatures below 0 C.

trust me, i'm against them. bottom line is their thought process isnt as screwey as it seems at the basic level, but thought process isnt results

[JR Boucicaut 3799]

I'm supposedly getting a set next week.

I'm trying to keep everything the same - I have two of the same boot (Mission S500) so boot pitch will be the same.

I've asked for some outside help on ways I can really test this thing.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

how easily accessible are the batteries/electronics JR?

edit: well i guess you wouldnt know, would you... might be worth wiring in a switch and having a kid in your shop flip a coin to turn it on or off before you skate and not tell you what it was.

[JR Boucicaut 3799]

how easily accessible are the batteries/electronics JR?

edit: well i guess you wouldnt know, would you... might be worth wiring in a switch and having a kid in your shop flip a coin to turn it on or off before you skate and not tell you what it was.

Yes, that was something I had planned on doing.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

woot. go us.

[DarkStar50 679]

I have seen the product. There are no external/exposed wires. The battery will be recharged by sitting in a cradle, like a cell phone.

[jimmy 194]

You absolutely have to take the human out of the testing. So many humans are biased, e.g., placebo effect, getting something for free (very high on the bias list), self fullfilling prophecy, marketing, etc. If it's a physics issue it can be tested easily, without humans. Ensuring all controls are the same, with the only difference being the actual item being tested. I can envision a test with the TB on one skate and a regular skate blade on the other. The two blade's thickness, height, hollow, radius, shape, etc has to be identical. The two skates would have to be modified to be the exact same weight. Then a series of tests are done with a device that propels the two skates along a track at the same time on the exact same ice conditions with the exact same force. Of course, the ice condition would have to be in the range normally associated with ice hockey. Then after many tests, the results tallied. If in fact one blade is better than the other, these unbiased tests would clearly show that, and to what percentage better.

Until they can do an impartial, double blind study using qualified people I will be very skeptical. Although you feel that one blade is performing different than the other there is no way to measure your feelings for accuracy. Some "feeling" can be just that - a physcological feeling (like a placebo effect). I am always skeptical of claims until they are backed up scientifically, using actual engineers or doctors that specialize in that field, doing controled tests. I have seen to many infommercials blow smoke up peoples ass using a doctor who is actually a dentist (or some other doctor and getting paid alot of money) discussing something they do not specialize in. It's like asking a plumber to discuss audio/visual equipment. He might have a little idea but that is it.

I'm glad to see there is some discussion on this thread again. The prototypes I had been skating on failed several skates ago. But the TB guys warned us of that. I would not argue that there could be a placebo effect. But I got at least 10 games on my blades and at least 4 other players that I know that were part of the testing did as well. They work better. Period. Smoother, faster off the line, stronger turning. It's not smoke up anyones ass. The science of it is a good discussion but having been part of the product testing I know what is real.

Not all the players that were testing back in August felt the same effects. But everyone that I heard talking felt 'some' benefits.

I will still definitely buy the product when it gets in the store.

you skated on them 10 different times. what was the conditions during the skating? Ice Temperatures, Air Temperatures, Quality of teams you played? What level of a player are you and the other test subjects? Was it on the boot you normally skate in with the same radius, pitch, hollow? There are alot of variables that were not controlled.

I am not arguing that you felt you did better, but feeling is a subjective thing and cannot be measured. They very well could have made your skating better, or in the very least made you FEEL that you were skating better. But by how much and to what extent. If it does work, will it bennefit all types of skaters or only high end skaters?

I guess at my age I have become more skeptical than my younger years. There are alot of people selling things that they claim work (magnet therapy, special water, etc) without providing actual proof. As a wise man once said "There is a sucker born every minute."

[lb33knight 0]

Sounds like it's time to call in the Mythbusters. :D

[Chadd 916]

You absolutely have to take the human out of the testing. So many humans are biased, e.g., placebo effect, getting something for free (very high on the bias list), self fullfilling prophecy, marketing, etc. If it's a physics issue it can be tested easily, without humans. Ensuring all controls are the same, with the only difference being the actual item being tested. I can envision a test with the TB on one skate and a regular skate blade on the other. The two blade's thickness, height, hollow, radius, shape, etc has to be identical. The two skates would have to be modified to be the exact same weight. Then a series of tests are done with a device that propels the two skates along a track at the same time on the exact same ice conditions with the exact same force. Of course, the ice condition would have to be in the range normally associated with ice hockey. Then after many tests, the results tallied. If in fact one blade is better than the other, these unbiased tests would clearly show that, and to what percentage better.

I would say a block of weight and not an actual skate. Those blocks could probably be made to match weights more easily than two different skates. The tests that come to mind first would be:

Amount of force required to begin movement

Amount of force required to reach speed X

Amount of force required to maintain speed X

Amount of force required to stop

Degradation of speed when pushing force is removed

[Keith 0]

To be really thorough about it, you would need rails of some sort to get the push off at the start straight and stable, a plate as an initial launch platform so the pushing force was even and a bungee cocked from the same point each time so the initial force was equal, which means, some sort of trigger release to take the human out of play. You would then need to mount both normal blades and thermas onto an object that has some weight, stability, as well as weight consistency to it. The sharpenings would both have to be fresh by the same person at the same settings with the same profile and rocker/hollow. The ice for each attempt would also need to be on a fresh, dry patch for each. In testing something like this, eliminating the variables as much as possible is paramount. Now tat I've said all this though, the true test is just stepping out there and seeing if you feel any better on the things. I mean, I KNOW t-blades glide better, you step on the ice with them and it is blatantly obvious, but do I feel like I skate better in them overall? Absolutely not.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

nope... those are all too difficult to control and monitor...

D. C. B. Evans et al. wrote "The Kinetic Friction of Ice" in 1976 (Proceedings of the Royal Society of London. Series A, Mathematical and Physical Sciences, Vol. 347, No. 1651. (Jan. 27, 1976), pp. 493-512.)

in that paper, they have an apparatus designed to test such objects, and even show how to test a "skate blade." Some geometries would have to be considered, and taken into account (to ensure proper skate blade contact ammounts since the ice drum is round and not flat. But it's highly controlled, and you can reach a great ammount of precision with the apparatus. though subbing a laser for a lamp would be more ideal