Therma Blade

[D3nZ 0]

The plastic chassis are going to be made by IPL Plastics in St-Damien. I've personally worked at one of their three plants. They are more known to make plastic containers for food, garbage bins and storage containers. For the people who sometimes paint ice surfaces, they make the Jet Ice containers for the colored paint. ;)

[santiclaws 0]

I think I have one with a laser in the closet somewhere. I'll check...

[Wolfpack_1986 146]

if you're going to test it, test it right or dont test it at all. it solves every problem presented, except for contact area... nobody can test them and get meaningful figures with out a lab where conditions can be controlled and replicated. not that i'm saying anyone here should, but somebody should get the data for thermablades sake... if they're so confident.

[jimmy 194]

To be really thorough about it, you would need rails of some sort to get the push off at the start straight and stable, a plate as an initial launch platform so the pushing force was even and a bungee cocked from the same point each time so the initial force was equal, which means, some sort of trigger release to take the human out of play. You would then need to mount both normal blades and thermas onto an object that has some weight, stability, as well as weight consistency to it. The sharpenings would both have to be fresh by the same person at the same settings with the same profile and rocker/hollow. The ice for each attempt would also need to be on a fresh, dry patch for each. In testing something like this, eliminating the variables as much as possible is paramount. Now tat I've said all this though, the true test is just stepping out there and seeing if you feel any better on the things. I mean, I KNOW t-blades glide better, you step on the ice with them and it is blatantly obvious, but do I feel like I skate better in them overall? Absolutely not.

You kinda contradict yourself. You say you KNOW Tblades glide better, yet were they compared to a conventional skate sharpened properly with the exact same hollow, radius, weight, level edges, etc, under the exact same conditions? A human in a test without controlling variables, only leads to anecdotal results.

[TheBert 0]

Some news on the TB: http://www.news1130.com/news/business/arti...ontent=b100708A

[Wolfpack_1986 146]

oh hell, gretz is endorsing them? man, i thought he was cool.

[Chadd 916]

oh hell, gretz is endorsing them? man, i thought he was cool.

Gotta make up for the cash Janet lost.

[DarkStar50 679]

Maybe she won. We don't know, do we?

BTW, heating blades is illegal in speed skating and figure skating competitions. These two sports have made the decision based on their information that any advantage gained by heating the blades in competition is an unfair advantage and is therefore a basis for disqualification.

[O-zone 0]

Hi All:

The newspaper article linked above is very typical of the slew of similar puff pieces seen recently, last week in particular. There is no doubt that ThermaBlade's hype machine heading into product launch is as slick and smoth as any I have ever seen. Getting Gretzky on board as well as signing up a Quebec-based plastics molding company to make the product were very smart moves, as they alone have generated a lot of favorable ink. By the way, Gretzky is more than an endorser, he is identified as major backer/investor in some articles, which I suppose is a form of endorsement. But it also means that he has a financial stake in convincing people that ThermaBlade is legit.

What is interesting about the articles is that they tend to make claims or hint at benefits that go beyond what they say officially, on their website for example. Best example is the statement in the article above which says "...allowing players to improve their stamina and speed and possibly reduce injuries". As far as I know, there has been no properly-designed scientifically rigorous actual hockey skating test to show a speed benefit. On the contrary, I believe that any rigorous tests done so far have showed no measurable speed benefit. That may be why they do not talk about speed on their website. But it still creeps into these articles.

I think that the healthy skepticism expressed in earlier posts is well-founded. I am remaining open-minded on the product but I have an issue with the way in which benefits are currently being touted and generalized, especially in terms of taking a test result and making the leap to hockey performance without considering the actual usage conditions inherent in the game of hockey and hockey skating in particular.

I don't want to make this post too long and put everyone to sleep but I will give one example. In a lot of articles and interviews, papers etc, they refer to the 50% reduction in glide friction. I know that this number was obtained from actual on-ice testing using a sled dragged the length of a hockey rink.

But how relevant is this result when you consider the real mechanics of hockey skating? Hockey skating consists of strides which progress from a very short pure glide phase to a traction phase at push-off, not the long pure glide of the test. And most importantly, a key parameter is the speed of the sled. If you think about the theory behind the ThermaBlade, where heat from the blade flows into the ice to melt it, the contact time and length are extremely important. As speeds increase, the effect must decrease (why you don't burn your finger when you move it quickly through a candle flame).

So what speed was the sled going when they obtained the always-quoted 50% reduction in friction? I have read in a test report that sled speeds were as low as 23.5 in/sec (2.19 km/hr or 1.36 mph). That is pretty slow, not too relevant to a sport where the top skating speed in the NHL can hit 45 km/hr (this number is from the website of Dr. Alain Hache, the Physics expert used by ThermaBlade). Even at half the NHL standard, say 22 km/hr (13.7 mph), the sled speed is way off.

At the very least ThermaBlade should have an asterisk on that 50% figure to show the test conditions where it was obtained. Better yet, disclose the reduction in friction at various test speeds. To quote again from Dr Hache, "extending skating efficiency beyond 18 km/hr (11.2 mph) may require more heat to be generated by the blade". This would explain why speed tests do not show a benefit. According to their own expert, there is no reason to expect a benefit if you are skating faster than 11.2 mph, as you would certainly expect in a full-out test involving any half-decent skater.

I have to take a break, but other claimed benefits, e.g., energy savings, are also open to some question, along similar lines to the above, in terms of test conditions which are perhaps not truly reflective of the conditions in an actual game of hockey when the benefits would really matter.

Cheers,

O-Z

[pantherfan 0]

The blades will cost $300 to $400.

Thats me out then...

[Shark#81 0]

I saw the CTV video on the other post. The first thing that jumped out was was:

$5 Million in development costs?? That's a ton of cash for such a product. The figure must not be correct.

Some posts in this thread have more or less said this but these days hockey is all about explosive acceleration, so the actual time spent gliding doesn't seem to be as significant. The batteries can't be light so there is a weight penalty at the WORST possible location your blade heel.

Also I think a bobsled team was DQ'd for blade heating. Obviously a BS team is pretty much all glide, so that makes sense for them. Same for speed skating.

Alternative ideas:

Finally - it would be a heck of a lot less $$ and more universally accepted to make on bench blade heaters. A big strip to put your skates on, or a personal verison. Sort of like F1 cars use the tire blankets, then hit the track. Theory being the friction from the ice, while you are on the ice will sustain your blade temps for your 30 sec - 1 minute shift.

So 2 minutes heating (on bench), 1 minute skating, 2 minutes heating etc.

Thrasha #81

[Jordan 13]

Hey Shark,

I think that the heat would leave the blade too quickly with a bench warming system. The thing about the explosiveness makes sense, but, if you can glide with less effort, you can conserve energy for that explosion when needed. it could be more beneficial in that way.

For example, I would argue that on a given shift a player likely spends 80% of the time, at less than 100% effort - circling, cutting into the flow, breaking out, settiing up in the offensive or defensive zones. They then need to burst when racing for the puck, or breaking to the open to get in position to receive a pass.

My own guess, is that there would be little top speed gain from these. Yet, if there was a gain in efficiency for the rest of the game, it could be advantageous.

[TBLfan 25]

hmmm heating metal then freezing metal, heating then freezing... that's gonna be great for the blade!

[Ogie Oglethorpe 14]

One could hypothesize that the blade won't retain it's sharpenness as long either, however, I doubt the steel will get hot enough to really make a noticeable impact either way.

[Shark#81 0]

They heat to what 6 DegC??

Presumably they have a temp control system that shuts off the battery when you are on the bench. Then when you hit the ice it will cycle on to try to maintain the control temp.

Just coming back from shinny today I thought it would be easy enough to try a hot blade concept - no $$ spent. Cooler full of piping hot water and a laser IR thermometer. Test temp before you hit the ice. Do a couple of laps, come back and test again.

Steel blades can handle a few hundred DegF to below freezing, no ill effects. The holders are the limiting factor. They can go to about 150 DegF (depending on the resin) before they start to soften.

[DarkStar50 679]

When you are sitting on the bench with the Thermablade, the computer circuitry board features a chip that senses motion. When you are sitting on the bench the "stand-by" feature of the chip is activated. Therefore, the blade is momentarily off.

[Wolfpack_1986 146]

great post o-zone.

Did not know about their sled testing, and you make a very valid claim, movement to colder ice quicker would indeed have a different effect than their test speed (1.6mph? SLOW).

I'd like to see how they did that test too... there's so many variables that could throw shit off.

[Shark#81 0]

These guys were doing back in '32...

"The two-man bobsled was introduced at the 1932 Games, and the American brothers J. Hubert Stevens and Curtis Stevens won gold with their practice—then highly unorthodox and now illegal—of heating the sled's runners with a blowtorch before competition"

[chk hrd 164]

What happens when one unit fails...do you end up skating in a circle or can you even tell...LOL

Call me old fashion, but for now I'll stick with my E-Pros until someone can convince me the bennifits outway the costs.

[djinferno 2]

this will work great for bobsleds, might even help break records...

[DamnLocust 0]

it was mentioned 3 or 4 times in this thread that heating blades is illegal in both boblsledding and figure skating. Thus, it would most help a bobsled team get a DQ.

[nummer55 10]

A Dutch inventor designed a speed skate that dripped oil under the blade to reduce friction. Would that be allowed? It didn't for speed skating...

[JR Boucicaut 3760]

Cleaned up the thread - next one to post gets warned. Backseat mods included.

[tro 4]

Hey, I know JR said no posts, but I came across this link today, that some NHL players will start testing the blades in games and practice.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive...7/15/c3962.html

[Chadd 916]

Hey, I know JR said no posts, but I came across this link today, that some NHL players will start testing the blades in games and practice.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive...7/15/c3962.html

Keep an eye on Edmonton practices and games.