LHS VS. THE CONSUMER

[sabres48 0]

I am not a LHS owner or worker but i can understand their anger when people use their shops as a fitting guide then leave em empty handed and buy nothing. But can you blame the consumer? Ive personally had chances to save 120-160 dollars from online, whether it be ebay or a store, to the LHS. Now maybe if your an established parent, or individual, you have this money at your disposal. But at the ripe age of 16, 150 dollars can be a whole seasons paycheck. I know this argument can go eitherway, but in my honset opinion i dont see how the LHS is ever gonna elimnate this problem, even with the installation of fitting charges and such. The one problem i do have, and still cant find an answer too is why a product is less expensive online than instores at the same retailers. Ie. XXV skates are 399.99 instores at hpckey world, but only 369.99 online. Call me ignorant, but i thought all the money goes to the same place?

All in all i think the battle is already lost, and that lowering prices is the only way for LHS to compete with online retailers. I dont know the science of running a LHS, but i can guess its not as easy as lowering prices, or that would already have been done. None the less, the verdict is out, and the online retailer is the unanimous winner.

What are your guys thoughts?

If your wondering, this is based off the conversations of the LHS owners only thread, however i found it better not to post there and get banned from this site or something like that.

[Chadd 916]

Margins are so thin that the only way you can sell for the same prices as the online guy is if you sell millions in inventory every year. Most LHS can't do that.

As for why it costs more in person than online: Sharpening, fitting, staffing, etc... There's a big difference between paying people to run a shop and paying someone to pull boxes in a warehouse.

[TBLfan 25]

Jimmy can elaborate more on this as he has in the past.

Personally, I will buy stuff online but I also buy as much as I can from my LHS. Skates you ALWAYS want to buy from a LHS. Sure the skates cost a bit more but you also get: free baking, free first sharpening, most will work with you if there's an issue(heel lifts, multiple bakings, etc), maybe free laces or tape and most importantly service, being helped to find the right skate for you.

Everytime I go to the rink I stop in and talk to the guys. They cut me deals on things and will pricematch as best as they can. I'm the kind of guy that will tip them for something like a sharpening and they might even comp me a sharpening every once in a while. If you need or expect good service, you need to treat them well too.

Heck, I have even been offered to have a trial run with an employees 9K0 stick(to which I respectfully declined). It's a two way street man.

[DEATHTRON 19]

Also, big online shops get alot their stock at a cheaper price because they buy ALOT more, joe blow lhs doesnt get that sort of break.

Zach

[Monty22 833]

If everyone continues to use brick and mortar shops as their own personal fitting rooms, when they close down, in the future where will you get your cheap products repaired, maintained, replaced with properly sized items etc?

[sdcopp 1]

to the original posters point of scraping by on money at 16, I think most of us have been there. $150 can be a huge amount when you work very few hours for lesser pay than someone who has a regular full time job, I'll concede that. The thing I notice a lot of kids doing is trying to keep up every year with the latest and greatest. Why bother if you know your money is going to be tight?

It's all about your personal choices: save a little, buy the very best you need from a LHS and get all the service, wear those skates until they are literally falling apart and not just until the next model comes out, lather rinse repeat.

The other option is save the money by purchasing online and pray your LHS is doing okay on business so when you do need service you have someone that can help you out. Sure this option might enable you to get the new stuff every year, but you never know if the shop in your area that does really good service and work will stay open in the long run.

[Bane 1]

I personally have a 50/50 attitude about the whole situation. I am happy to buy from LHS anytime I can if the price difference isn't 50%. On $400 MSRP skates that I can get online for $200, I would gladly pay $300 from a small LHS to support them and keep them around, but a 50% difference is way too much. I understand margins and all that, but at some point you have to draw the line on cost.

I used to tell the owner of the two LHS stores in Columbus OH, when he complained about internet retailers, that if he just gave people a 10% discount off MSRP I would buy everything there. His attitude was, I am the only LHS, so people will buy from me anyway. As a result, more and more people bought online. Obviously, a 10% discount is not huge, when online stores are regularly offering 25% to 50% off.

Now that I live in Cali, I support my LHS stores all the time. Granted my LHS stores are Hockey Giant and Hawk Hockey (Hockey Monkey's retail store) and they do not charge a premium for stuff bought in the stores.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

When I started to play hockey, I got my gear online. I didn't know any better.

I don't have a problem people getting gear online, however, I do have issues with people using LHS as fitting rooms for online purchases.

I also tell people to consider the overall price, when it comes to skates, you have sharpening, shipping, handling fees, and heat molding.

There are a few shops in this area, but I use the same one all the time.

When I went in to get my skates, I was not looking for high end skates, but wanted something supportive enough for my frame, that I could use for a while.

I was treated with respect, they took the time to fit me properly, go over the pros and cons of some of the skates in my range, and how some would be more beneficial to me, for my buget.

Working out the overall cost, it saved me money compared to getting them online, and I could walk out of the shop with them on the spot.

But it's more than that. I wasn't buying a $600 skate, or a $200 OPS, but I was treated and made feel like my business was just as important to them as if I were.

I understand completely where Theo is coming from, if you are not treated with respect as a consumer, you should not feel obligied to support the shop.

I will go out of my way now to pick up stuff at this shop, even if its just a couple of rolls of tape, because I know that when I go back for the big stuff, that my business is appreciated.

There are two sides to the story, but if your LHS staff treat you right (and I don't mean discounts, I don't ask, nor expect discounts)you should try to support them, even if it does cost a little more, because if they can't stay open, where are you going to go to get your skates sharpened, or a second baking, or even pick up some tape, laces, practice jerseys, socks etc.

[Bane 1]

When I started to play hockey, I got my gear online. I didn't know any better.

I don't have a problem people getting gear online, however, I do have issues with people using LHS as fitting rooms for online purchases.

I also tell people to consider the overall price, when it comes to skates, you have sharpening, shipping, handling fees, and heat molding.

There are a few shops in this area, but I use the same one all the time.

When I went in to get my skates, I was not looking for high end skates, but wanted something supportive enough for my frame, that I could use for a while.

I was treated with respect, they took the time to fit me properly, go over the pros and cons of some of the skates in my range, and how some would be more beneficial to me, for my buget.

Working out the overall cost, it saved me money compared to getting them online, and I could walk out of the shop with them on the spot.

But it's more than that. I wasn't buying a $600 skate, or a $200 OPS, but I was treated and made feel like my business was just as important to them as if I were.

I understand completely where Theo is coming from, if you are not treated with respect as a consumer, you should not feel obligied to support the shop.

I will go out of my way now to pick up stuff at this shop, even if its just a couple of rolls of tape, because I know that when I go back for the big stuff, that my business is appreciated.

There are two sides to the story, but if your LHS staff treat you right (and I don't mean discounts, I don't ask, nor expect discounts)you should try to support them, even if it does cost a little more, because if they can't stay open, where are you going to go to get your skates sharpened, or a second baking, or even pick up some tape, laces, practice jerseys, socks etc.

In my case, I supported them every time I could. I bought a full set of gear for my wife at the store in Columbus, and two of our friends bought full sets there. They were more expensive on that stuff, but not 50% more expensive.

For me personally, the biggest issue was they only carried two models of skates from each company; Nike, Bauer, CCM, and Mission. They carried one high end model and one low end model. I give them credit on stick selection though, they always had the latest sticks.

We went out of our way to support them though when we could. Part of the reason for that is that when the inline hockey rink in Columbus lost their lease, the LHS owner worked hard to get a new rink up. You could say that it was to keep his sales up, except that Columbus already had 5 ice rinks so inline was probably the least of his sales.

I just see it both ways. We all have limited money, so you have to draw the line on what kind of premium you are willing to pay the LHS at some point.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

As far as bugeting for stuff. I get paid twice a month, and put $20 into a jar per paycheck. I don't NEED any gear, but most of us here squander $20 a paycheck easily.

So, at the end of the year, I have $480 to blow on any crap I want to get, so paying a premium doesn't bother me.

I have shown a lot of restraint this year, and my only purchases have been a pair of gloves from a fellow MSHer, and a visor.

However, it's been calculated, because I know I am going to be in OPS mode within a few months so I will be able to just use my hockey slush fund on that, which I will take to the LHS again and use

[Bane 1]

As far as bugeting for stuff. I get paid twice a month, and put $20 into a jar per paycheck. I don't NEED any gear, but most of us here squander $20 a paycheck easily.

So, at the end of the year, I have $480 to blow on any crap I want to get, so paying a premium doesn't bother me.

I have shown a lot of restraint this year, and my only purchases have been a pair of gloves from a fellow MSHer, and a visor.

However, it's been calculated, because I know I am going to be in OPS mode within a few months so I will be able to just use my hockey slush fund on that, which I will take to the LHS again and use

I have two kids, what's a slush fund? LOL

[sabres48 0]

When I started to play hockey, I got my gear online. I didn't know any better.

I don't have a problem people getting gear online, however, I do have issues with people using LHS as fitting rooms for online purchases.

I also tell people to consider the overall price, when it comes to skates, you have sharpening, shipping, handling fees, and heat molding.[/color]

There are a few shops in this area, but I use the same one all the time.

When I went in to get my skates, I was not looking for high end skates, but wanted something supportive enough for my frame, that I could use for a while.

I was treated with respect, they took the time to fit me properly, go over the pros and cons of some of the skates in my range, and how some would be more beneficial to me, for my buget.

Working out the overall cost, it saved me money compared to getting them online, and I could walk out of the shop with them on the spot.

But it's more than that. I wasn't buying a $600 skate, or a $200 OPS, but I was treated and made feel like my business was just as important to them as if I were.

I understand completely where Theo is coming from, if you are not treated with respect as a consumer, you should not feel obligied to support the shop.

I will go out of my way now to pick up stuff at this shop, even if its just a couple of rolls of tape, because I know that when I go back for the big stuff, that my business is appreciated.

There are two sides to the story, but if your LHS staff treat you right (and I don't mean discounts, I don't ask, nor expect discounts)you should try to support them, even if it does cost a little more, because if they can't stay open, where are you going to go to get your skates sharpened, or a second baking, or even pick up some tape, laces, practice jerseys, socks etc.

I think we can all agree that skates are a unique piece of equipment, as they are the only one your are depedndent on a LHS for upkeep of. I agree with you though, skates should be bought instore. That has more to do with the fit than the price, but if you figure the cost of baking, and sharpening, your not really saving that much (always).

However i just cant reason with those that complain about when an individual goes in a shop, tries on say a helmet, and useses none of the employees time. We are only looking out for our own good, and thats human nature.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

However i just cant reason with those that complain about when an individual goes in a shop, tries on say a helmet, and useses none of the employees time. We are only looking out for our own good, and thats human nature.

So, this helmet you try own, and not cost the store anything.

By using the facilities which allow you to try it on you have

1. The helmet itself which has to be ordered and stocked

2. The shop, which has a mortgage or rent due

3. The cost of maintaining a shop, electricity, plumbing, fixtures, shelving to be set up

And so on and so forth.

You are using the service they provide, and costing them money.

If you are going to buy online, then buy online, but don't use a LHS as your personal fitting room and then think it's fine because you didn't bother the store employee.

EDIT: And how long will a pair of skates last. The LHS make their money on other sales more than skates I would think, because some people will wear the same skates for 5, 6, 10 seasons. You say buy those in the LHS because they need servicing and such, and it's a special item.

What if there is no LHS because kids come in, try on gear and buy it online, meaning the LHS has to shut up shop?

I understand you are only 16 or whatever, so you have a very individualistic perspective on it, but you have to understand the greater good of the LHS, and it's not goingto stay in business with skate sales alone

[sabre09923 0]

Put another way...

The online store can draw on customers from all over the US and sometimes Canada. The LHS can only draw on customers in its immediate area. The online store doesn't exactly need your business to survive. Your LHS does. And so on down the line... Like Smoke said, the LHS has to pay for many things that an online store does not.

[Ti-girl 0]

I personally try to purchase as much as I can from my LHS. I found one close to me that actually understands women's hockey and does their best to give us a hand. They've ordered in women's shoulder pads for me and have ordered in the women's pants for girls on my team. We all take our skates in and they change the hollow for us. Now I buy all my sticks/gloves there.

[Bane 1]

Put another way...

The online store can draw on customers from all over the US and sometimes Canada. The LHS can only draw on customers in its immediate area. The online store doesn't exactly need your business to survive. Your LHS does. And so on down the line... Like Smoke said, the LHS has to pay for many things that an online store does not.

There's nothing stopping a LHS from putting up a website and taking online orders. Some of the smaller LHS do that here too. So to me they have the same opportunity as the large websites.

[yipperzz 28]

i go to my LHS because it costs the same after shipping and handling. you should support your stores because if they ever shut down, you're screwed later. where will you go when you need to check sizes? what will you do if you need something RIGHT away?

i understand that you're young and broke. we've all been there. not all of us were so lucky to have online stores around when we were younger. if you're willing to risk the purchases, that's fine. but i wouldn't go to the LHS and use their resources just so you can save a few bucks. it's just not right.

Put another way...

The online store can draw on customers from all over the US and sometimes Canada. The LHS can only draw on customers in its immediate area. The online store doesn't exactly need your business to survive. Your LHS does. And so on down the line... Like Smoke said, the LHS has to pay for many things that an online store does not.

There's nothing stopping a LHS from putting up a website and taking online orders. Some of the smaller LHS do that here too. So to me they have the same opportunity as the large websites.

that's fine, but they still won't be able to get the same price breaks as the bigger online retailers. then you have to pay for the website and someone to create, update, and maintain the site? it's not even worth it then.

[nni 0]

just found out my lhs matches hockey monkey prices. now their selection sucks, but i will at leasr get my next stick from them.

[trevor13478 1]

i personally always just try to find the best deal, once you factor in the shipping, my LHS is always fairly close the online price, if its a matter of a few bucks in order to not have to wait a week for shipping, i'd support the LHS. Also, i think somebody posted in another thread how most of the LHS' profit comes from sharpenings, if so, then they should be able to compete with the online retailers if they're near a rink anyway, even if people opt to pick up a few things online here and there. If it's not going to be much more of a hit to my wallet, i go to the LHS. I like being able to just take it home the day you buy it, i hate waiting for shipping. plus you can't put a price on actually dealing with a human face to face, not over email or the phone or whatnot.

[TBLfan 25]

They make a decent amount of money on sharpenings and basic work but they still have to turn a profit on the product they're selling(obviously). You can only make soo much on services and the occasional "I forgot my jock/stick/helmet."

[trevor13478 1]

i always buy apparel (jocks, undershirts etc.) from the LHS, along with sticks (i like to be able to see the pattern, plus prices are relatively regualted on sticks). I know it doesn't make sense, but my last 2 pairs of skates i've bought online, i just couldn't pass up the deal, i knew my size in eastons from previous purchases, both pairs fit me like a glove.

[forbs02 20]

Put another way...

The online store can draw on customers from all over the US and sometimes Canada. The LHS can only draw on customers in its immediate area. The online store doesn't exactly need your business to survive. Your LHS does. And so on down the line... Like Smoke said, the LHS has to pay for many things that an online store does not.

There's nothing stopping a LHS from putting up a website and taking online orders. Some of the smaller LHS do that here too. So to me they have the same opportunity as the large websites.

I don't think you understand the sheer volume of product that the big online shops buy from the manufacturer. We are talking about millions of dollars. A local shop is not going to be able to put up that kind of capital. On top of that, they would have to have the correct computer capabilities (and know how) to run the website. The big online shops also make some money off of their shipping. They are able to get a slight break from their shipping provider that a smaller shop will not be able to get.

[Dan Tessier 0]

My problem living here in Canada is that the high Canadian dollar has made the price of stuff in my LHS ridiculous. I like using my LHS cause I like the guys and they know their stuff and generally give good fedback on equipment but I think some of the prices are outrageous. A stealth CNT is 300$ CDN, wheras its about 100$ cheaper online.

[Ti-girl 0]

The dollar is strong right now. its .94 exchange.

Doesn't count anymore in Canada.

[jeffw 1]

How about if the manufacturers let the LHS's have their stuff on consignment instead of making them pay for it up front? Only pay for what you sell instead of making them tie up so much $$$ in inventory? Use the LHS as a showroom for your gear.