Some Thoughts on Skate Marketing

[bucko 0]

Thanks as well to the guys sending Graf e-mails telling them to fire me. Very mature.

if this really happend i think this discussion went way to far!!! this is absolutely not acceptable!

[GrafPro55 0]

Thanks as well to the guys sending Graf e-mails telling them to fire me. Very mature.

if this really happend i think this discussion went way to far!!! this is absolutely not acceptable!

Oh, it happened.

[BobMcRobertson 0]

Thanks as well to the guys sending Graf e-mails telling them to fire me. Very mature.

Wow. That seems a little extreme.........

[pantherfan 0]

Thank you. That is all I needed. Thank you to all the people who don't mind that I have an opinion, no matter what I do for a living.

Thanks as well to the guys sending Graf e-mails telling them to fire me. Very mature.

:lol: I bet that was fun for a monday morning! Personally I think it's refreshing to see a member involved in the industry speak so openly about their opinions and be so active on the board. Hope it continues!

[rmnyi 0]

That's malicious and extremely immature.

[mrusse01 0]

Thanks as well to the guys sending Graf e-mails telling them to fire me. Very mature.

That's pretty low brow.

I appreciate that guys like Tyler and Justin (when he worked at Mission) make it known who they work for in the industry, but when you hear crap like this going on it's not difficult to see why some people would prefer to stay in the shadows so to speak.

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

Thanks as well to the guys sending Graf e-mails telling them to fire me. Very mature.

That's pretty low brow.

I appreciate that guys like Tyler and Justin (when he worked at Mission) make it known who they work for in the industry, but when you hear crap like this going on it's not difficult to see why some people would prefer to stay in the shadows so to speak.

Not necessarily - you just have to be tactful.

[TBLfan 25]

Agreed. You don't send emails to someone's boss in attempts of getting someone fired over what is said on a message board. That's getting REAL personal.

I don't think you guys, grafpro and mrusse01 understand why we are argueing. It's not his stance on marketing, its the stance that these skates are NOT innovative but pure marketing. After Tyler claimed that NBH and CCM haven't been innovative he later fabricated numbers of 75% skate, 25% marketing over 50% skate and 50% marketing, like we dont know what he's hinting at.

It's been stated that the arguement has nothing to do with his opinion on the skates. The arguement is his statement about innovation or lack thereof of innovation, we've made this clear numerous times. It just went on from there as to contain arguements over how poorly Graf is run.

[halfmoonyote 0]

Hey guys...first post in awhile. I was splitting a good deal of my time between AZ and PA. To the few peeps who are waiting on PM replies from me, I havent forgotten about you. Buzz call me later....

This thread is personally compelling to me because I am currently in the market for new skates. I've been in L7's for god knows how long, and could never envision myself using anything but. I even bought up a bunch when they were being closed out.

Having said all that, the time has come for me to get something different. I have the resources to get any boot that works for me, but I am thoroughly taking the time to research everything on my 'vanity list' to make the most informed and best fitting choice. Naturally, at the top of my list are the One90's and Grafs (and I'd like to be fitted for the One95's when I have a chance). For obvious reasons, being fitted for the One90 is straight forward - it's just one model to try on. Graf - you have to really research each and every boot they offer to pick the model that matches your wants/needs as well as your skating style. Ok fine, I am willing to do that. I kind of buy into the concept of pros wearing them for a specific reason. Dan Hamhuis, a pro that I respect very much, loves them.

OK, having said that, I visited three different Graf dealers between here and AZ, and they were all downright awful experiences. (Grafpro55, that's not a knock on you personally or the Graf company, just giving you some market feedback). I went into each of the dealers and discussed with them EXACTLY what I want and need out of a boot, what I did NOT want out of a boot and some examples of boots I've worn in the past and even some examples of what has not worked for me. Don't you know that at EVERY GOD DAMNED shop that carried Graf I was in, they tried to put me in a model they had IN STOCK when every time it was NOT what in the hell I wanted or needed or even fit my foot for that matter. In every stop I said - 'Hey, I am willing to wait for the right boot if we can order it. I kind of have an idea of the boot I want'. I would get the same canned bullshit answer - 'Well, it takes at least 8 weeks to get something from Graf, what is wrong with any of these?' When every time, they were a low cut, supple fit style boot, wrong size, wrong width, or it just didn't work for my ankles. Point being, I kind of know what I want, was willing to spend the money if I could at least have the opportunity of ordering.

I am not lying, embellishing, or even bending a single part of this. I guess, in the end, my point in this long winded post is that Graf retailers make it so difficult to actually buy a pair of Graf skates. What sense does that make? Here I am - willing to spend upwards of $600 on a pair of skates - just put me in the ones that I WANT, NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO PUT ME IN.

Again, just some food for thought. I'm not necessarily divorcing myself from buying a pair of Grafs, but as it stands, it's much easier for me to buy the One90's.

[rmnyi 0]

I've been shopping for skates for over a year and couldn't get a good fitting until I went to a Graf dealer. Going into the process I suspected that I needed a 709. I didn't say anything, just let him do his thing. He selected a 709 and I also needed the holder adjusted to compensate for my foot pronating. I drove over an hour to find this guy and will be going back. Your complaint is not so much a complaint against Graf as it is really an issue with poor service from a dealer

[hockeyfreak 0]

Hey guys...first post in awhile. I was splitting a good deal of my time between AZ and PA. To the few peeps who are waiting on PM replies from me, I havent forgotten about you. Buzz call me later....

This thread is personally compelling to me because I am currently in the market for new skates. I've been in L7's for god knows how long, and could never envision myself using anything but. I even bought up a bunch when they were being closed out.

Having said all that, the time has come for me to get something different. I have the resources to get any boot that works for me, but I am thoroughly taking the time to research everything on my 'vanity list' to make the most informed and best fitting choice. Naturally, at the top of my list are the One90's and Grafs (and I'd like to be fitted for the One95's when I have a chance). For obvious reasons, being fitted for the One90 is straight forward - it's just one model to try on. Graf - you have to really research each and every boot they offer to pick the model that matches your wants/needs as well as your skating style. Ok fine, I am willing to do that. I kind of buy into the concept of pros wearing them for a specific reason. Dan Hamhuis, a pro that I respect very much, loves them.

OK, having said that, I visited three different Graf dealers between here and AZ, and they were all downright awful experiences. (Grafpro55, that's not a knock on you personally or the Graf company, just giving you some market feedback). I went into each of the dealers and discussed with them EXACTLY what I want and need out of a boot, what I did NOT want out of a boot and some examples of boots I've worn in the past and even some examples of what has not worked for me. Don't you know that at EVERY GOD DAMNED shop that carried Graf I was in, they tried to put me in a model they had IN STOCK when every time it was NOT what in the hell I wanted or needed or even fit my foot for that matter. In every stop I said - 'Hey, I am willing to wait for the right boot if we can order it. I kind of have an idea of the boot I want'. I would get the same canned bullshit answer - 'Well, it takes at least 8 weeks to get something from Graf, what is wrong with any of these?' When every time, they were a low cut, supple fit style boot, wrong size, wrong width, or it just didn't work for my ankles. Point being, I kind of know what I want, was willing to spend the money if I could at least have the opportunity of ordering.

I am not lying, embellishing, or even bending a single part of this. I guess, in the end, my point in this long winded post is that Graf retailers make it so difficult to actually buy a pair of Graf skates. What sense does that make? Here I am - willing to spend upwards of $600 on a pair of skates - just put me in the ones that I WANT, NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO PUT ME IN.

Again, just some food for thought. I'm not necessarily divorcing myself from buying a pair of Grafs, but as it stands, it's much easier for me to buy the One90's.

This just proves a lot of LHS employees don't know what they are doing. It sucks that Graf is getting a bad name because of a lack of fitting expertise by LHS employees.

[cxo 0]

Agreed, that's a reflection of the dealers, who I'm sure aren't dealing with Graf solely anyhow, and not the manufacturer.

[TBLfan 25]

While I agree that this is on the dealers... it does indicate that there is an issue at the dealer level about getting skates from Graf for the customers.

[rmnyi 0]

While true (and yes, happened to me in the past as well), it was told to me that when I post on any hockey BB, my posts may be construed to be the opinion of the company as well, right or wrong.

I still have the same opinion that I had last night in this thread. I think Tyler could've gone about things in a different manner.

I think several people in this thread could have handled things differently

[mrusse01 0]

I don't think you guys, grafpro and mrusse01 understand why we are argueing. It's not his stance on marketing, its the stance that these skates are NOT innovative but pure marketing. After Tyler claimed that NBH and CCM haven't been innovative he later fabricated numbers of 75% skate, 25% marketing over 50% skate and 50% marketing, like we dont know what he's hinting at.

No, I understand exactly what your were arguing about, I just think there was GrafPro on one side trying to get one point across and everybody else on the other side lambasting him over a point that he wasn't trying to make.

Say what you will, but he works in the skate industry, regardless of what you think of Graf I'm sure they aren't dumb enough to completely discount the innovative aspects of a skate such as a One90. Sure, it's an innovative product...maybe it's not the best skate for you, maybe it doesn't fit into your philosophy on how a skate should work, but it was an innovation that worked well for a lot of people. End of story.

As for the marketing angle, as I mentioned previously, NBH in particular markets the hell out of their product (relative to the other hockey companies). And that's great, I think they have a fantastic product. But you have to agree that perhaps a large percentage of their customers buy the product not because it is the best product for them, but because it is the best marketed product. Do I have a problem with that? No, I personally do not. If I worked at a smaller hockey company that I thought made a comparable product but wasn't selling as well as it could due to poor marketing and customer support, would I think otherwise? Maybe I would. But as Tyler said a few times, he doesn't work in Marketing, so that's just his opinion and really there probably isn't a whole lot he can do about it.

[halfmoonyote 0]

Your complaint is not so much a complaint against Graf as it is really an issue with poor service from a dealer

Correct. Hence why I added my disclaimer early on in my post in parentheses to GP55 that my thoughts are not a direct reflection on him personally, or the Graf company.

[rmnyi 0]

Your complaint is not so much a complaint against Graf as it is really an issue with poor service from a dealer

Correct. Hence why I added my disclaimer early on in my post in parentheses to GP55 that my thoughts are not a direct reflection on him personally, or the Graf company.

Did they sell other brands or were they exclusively Graf dealers?

[halfmoonyote 0]

Did they sell other brands or were they exclusively Graf dealers?

No, none of the shops I visited for Grafs were Graf exclusive. And none of them took the time to really look at my foot, outside of a standard fare measurement. The experience you told of above is exactly what I was expecting (and hoping for) when I set out.

[TBLfan 25]

No, I understand exactly what your were arguing about, I just think there was GrafPro on one side trying to get one point across and everybody else on the other side lambasting him over a point that he wasn't trying to make.

Say what you will, but he works in the skate industry, regardless of what you think of Graf I'm sure they aren't dumb enough to completely discount the innovative aspects of a skate such as a One90. Sure, it's an innovative product...maybe it's not the best skate for you, maybe it doesn't fit into your philosophy on how a skate should work, but it was an innovation that worked well for a lot of people. End of story.

That IS my arguement, which was the arguement AGAINST Tyler's position who claimed it was NOT innovative. The one90 would never work for me, who cares? That doesn't mean it's not innovative.

As for the marketing angle, as I mentioned previously, NBH in particular markets the hell out of their product (relative to the other hockey companies). And that's great, I think they have a fantastic product. But you have to agree that perhaps a large percentage of their customers buy the product not because it is the best product for them, but because it is the best marketed product. Do I have a problem with that? No, I personally do not. If I worked at a smaller hockey company that I thought made a comparable product but wasn't selling as well as it could due to poor marketing and customer support, would I think otherwise? Maybe I would. But as Tyler said a few times, he doesn't work in Marketing, so that's just his opinion and really there probably isn't a whole lot he can do about it.

That's true. BUT Marketing has nothing to do with innovation. You can be innovative and not market your products, you can have a huge marketing campaign without being innovative. NBH is innovative with their products AND markets them.

If anyone should be in the line of fire for marketing without innovation it should be warrior(despite spyne), not NBH.

[Rustpot 1]

But Warrior doesn't make skates, TBL, so Graf ain't got no beef with them.

My biggest complaint is that GrafPro55 tries to be very selective in how he represents himself. He's either here as a party from Graf, or not. He can't work there and offer insight without watching his mouth and making comments that reflect the whole company.

If he's here without the consent of the marketing department to be a voice for Graf Canada, why is he so open about answering any and all Graf questions?

Things don't work like that. If I told you all I'm a senior engineer with GM, called myself "GM Engy 66", and come in here talking about how Chrysler is a bunch of idiots that are marketing bad products to make sales- all of the credibility of my name and my company name just went out the window when I went to slander a competitor.

[rmnyi 0]

Did they sell other brands or were they exclusively Graf dealers?

No, none of the shops I visited for Grafs were Graf exclusive. And none of them took the time to really look at my foot, outside of a standard fare measurement. The experience you told of above is exactly what I was expecting (and hoping for) when I set out.

I went to a very well known shop that has great selection(inclduing Graf) hoping for a good fitting. I had no idea at the time that I needed Graf but knew that I needed to be fitted properly. IMO, the staff was knowledgeable but also very young and not as concerned with my fitting as I was. It didn't go well. This store has the best selection of product in my area (1.5 hours away). I eventually went to a dealer that only sells Graf (at this point I knew I needed a deep skate) and got the service I was looking for.

[chippa13 1844]

Anecdote: A guy on one of my teams showed up with a new pair of Grafs. He is probably the 4th guy in the last couple of years to jump into a pair. Seeing them, another guy who spent a few years in the bus leagues of pro hockey mentioned that usually once guys wore their first pair of Grafs, they tended to stick with them. It prompted this comment to come to mind, "Once you go Graf, you never go back."

[bucko 0]

well sure, some things GrafPro has written here, were not the answers we all expected from a rep of graf. but i think it shows that he is just in the whole product line of graf with his heart. maybe it is frustrating for him to see that a whole bunch of people just did not buy grafs because other brands are more hyped at the moment. sure it was not the perfect way he replied at some posts, but when everybody cools down, i think you can see it that way. i am distributing cars, so i know that it is hard seeing people buy the product they like most from different reasons, and not buy the product that fits them best. but then again, it is a thin line to accept it or throw some things out just because you are frustrated.

[mrusse01 0]

No, I understand exactly what your were arguing about, I just think there was GrafPro on one side trying to get one point across and everybody else on the other side lambasting him over a point that he wasn't trying to make.

Say what you will, but he works in the skate industry, regardless of what you think of Graf I'm sure they aren't dumb enough to completely discount the innovative aspects of a skate such as a One90. Sure, it's an innovative product...maybe it's not the best skate for you, maybe it doesn't fit into your philosophy on how a skate should work, but it was an innovation that worked well for a lot of people. End of story.

That IS my arguement, which was the arguement AGAINST Tyler's position who claimed it was NOT innovative. The one90 would never work for me, who cares? That doesn't mean it's not innovative.

I guess that's where we differ...reading the thread I never got the sense that he was suggesting NBH was not innovative in some of their products. Seemed like some people jumped down his throat a bit just because he is 'from' Graf, I doubt if any other member had made similar remarks if the outcome of this thread would have been the same.

[mack 44]

I think they would have, at least from me. It's not his company he works for, it's his tossing away something like the One90 for being too stiff or whatever he called it.