2008 US Election Thread

[Bane 1]

Getting back on the subject of Palin. I still have a hard time understanding why people are so concerned about her inexperience. If McCain is elected there is a chance that he dies and Palin(who lacks experience) has to lead the country for a portion of the four year term. If Obama is elected then we are guaranteed to have an inexperienced leader running the country for at least four years.

Wait, are you talking about having experience or being a leader? Because those are different traits.

A leader can have absolutely no experience, as long as he can convince others to follow -- which is the tricky part for one without experience. In the case of a President, what would be needed to be a leader? He'd have to have the self confidence to realize it's impossible for anyone to have knowledge in all fields, so he has to surround himself with people who are smarter than him in the various disciplines. (It sounds simple but a lot of people in management feel threatened by hiring "underlings" who are smarter.) He'd have to remain calm during a crisis to instill confidence with his staff as well as the public, consult his inner sanctum for information and ideas, have the intelligence to analyze his options and their projected repercussions, then have the confidence to act decisively. He'd have to have the political skill to massage different cultures, personalities and ideologies. He'd have to have the resolve to continue fighting for his positions, even as he suffers losses.

I'm sure we all could come up with more requirements for the job, but those are generally what would be needed to lead this country as a President. If we are objective, we'd have to admit that none of those traits require experience, with two caveats. One is everybody, regardless of how skilled they are to begin, become more skilled with more repetitions. The second is it's easier for others to feel confident in the leader when the leader has more experience, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for the inexperienced leader to instill confidence.

So let's look at the three candidates, since I'm including Palin as a surrogate given McCain's health history.

Based on Palin's three rambling interviews, she doesn't seem to be the type to remain calm when confronted with unexpected issues. However, her performance at the debates showed she can learn the issues given time to study, but her mannerisms of winking at the camera and smiling at inappropriate times came across more as a flirt who tries to use her looks. I don't know how well that would play out.

I'm confident that McCain had to show great leadership to the other POW's, so he probably would know how to remain calm during a crisis. On the other hand, he has a history of blow ups when people have challenged him. What I don't know is whether these are to be expected over a career spanning 24 years, or is he a Peter And The Wolf guy who makes too many political enemies?

Obama hasn't lost his cool, to the dismay of some of his followers, which suggests he's the most politically savvy of the three, but we don't know whether he would maintain that demeanor during times of crisis. This is purely speculation but, based on his intelligence, he seems more likely to surround himself with people who truly are qualified to be on his Cabinet versus strictly cronyism.

We're on a message board, so this is only an opinion, but I'd say that McCain has more experience, while Obama appears to have more traits to be a political leader.

But don't you think experience is important in being a well-equipped leader? And I'd be terrified if someone with no experience managed to convince throngs of people to follow him. What I gathered from that post is that Obama is such an eloquent speaker and supremely intelligent man how could he not be a great president. As for your final points, I'm just glad you qualified them as pure speculation

Very good summary of both candidates. For me, McCain showed his true colors when the incident in Georgia happened. I got the impression, that if he were president he would have sent troops without thinking twice. It should never be a snap judgment to go to war.

[donkey87 0]

I have no doubt that Obama is politically more savy than McCain. Obama took the nomination right out of Hillary's grasp, McCain had to wait until the Republican party had no obvious choice for the nomination. Obama has become very good at presenting a calm and confident attitude. As for Palin, I really wonder how much her issues with her mannerism and rambling is do to her inexperience with the national media. Palin been in the spotlight and dealing with media for just over a month, Obama has been campaigning for more than a year and a half. My biggest issue with Obama is that I get the feeling that he's not quite sure what direction he wants to lead the country. I hear a lot about change but very little in the way of specifics. Do I want Palin to be President right now. No I do not, but fortunately she is the nominee for VP. Which means unless McCain decides to have a heart attack while taking the oath of office Palin will have time to gain experience and become a better leader.

Personally I would like to know why McCain didn't choose someone like Sen. Hutchinson for his running mate. Seems like she would have brought some of the same benefits as Palin without as many of the questions about qualification and experience.

[troy 12]

Read Blink, by Malcolm Gladwell, you'll learn a lot about snap decisions. I'm just very disappointed that no candidate conjures a thorough sense of confidence in his abilities to lead the country. The two party system is destroying politics not because of the perceived polarizing differences from left to right, but how similar the parties are with the exception of a handful of issues. The next president is going to have such tremendous burdens before entering office an incompetent CIC would be devastating (and please no Bush remarks related to incompetent leader, this is an '08 election thread).

[Chadd 916]

So let's look at the three candidates, since I'm including Palin as a surrogate given McCain's health history.

It's not like he's on his death bed, he's just older than average. There doesn't even appear to be any lingering effects of his minor bout with skin cancer.

Personally I would like to know why McCain didn't choose someone like Sen. Hutchinson for his running mate. Seems like she would have brought some of the same benefits as Palin without as many of the questions about qualification and experience.

If he was going to pick a fundie, he should have picked Huckabee. That would have been a very interesting ticket.

[Bane 1]

I have no doubt that Obama is politically more savy than McCain. Obama took the nomination right out of Hillary's grasp, McCain had to wait until the Republican party had no obvious choice for the nomination. Obama has become very good at presenting a calm and confident attitude. As for Palin, I really wonder how much her issues with her mannerism and rambling is do to her inexperience with the national media. Palin been in the spotlight and dealing with media for just over a month, Obama has been campaigning for more than a year and a half. My biggest issue with Obama is that I get the feeling that he's not quite sure what direction he wants to lead the country. I hear a lot about change but very little in the way of specifics. Do I want Palin to be President right now. No I do not, but fortunately she is the nominee for VP. Which means unless McCain decides to have a heart attack while taking the oath of office Palin will have time to gain experience and become a better leader.

Personally I would like to know why McCain didn't choose someone like Sen. Hutchinson for his running mate. Seems like she would have brought some of the same benefits as Palin without as many of the questions about qualification and experience.

Rumor has it that McCain wanted Lieberman to be his VP, but the old guard of the party wouldn't let that happen. It would explain a lot as to why the decision seemed to be so rushed. I don't know if it is her inexperience or what, but when she said at the debate that she agreed with how Cheney has run things as the VP and she would try to emulate it, a big red flag went up for me.

[Jason Harris 31]

But don't you think experience is important in being a well-equipped leader?

Yes, I do. But someone who is a true leader will outshine someone who has more experience.

Think of it in terms of professional sports teams. Most people gravitate to the best player, which is one measurement of experience, but after reading the quotes it becomes apparent who the true leader is. It happened on the Red Sox during the early part of this decade when Manny, Nomar, Pedro and others were on the team, but it was obvious that Varitek was the leader. Sure enough, after the World Series, he was named the first captain they had in twenty years.

So let's look at the three candidates, since I'm including Palin as a surrogate given McCain's health history.

It's not like he's on his death bed, he's just older than average. There doesn't even appear to be any lingering effects of his minor bout with skin cancer.

I agree, but given who he has chosen for VP, I think it has to be entered into the equation.

[Chadd 916]

Rumor has it that McCain wanted Lieberman to be his VP, but the old guard of the party wouldn't let that happen. It would explain a lot as to why the decision seemed to be so rushed. I don't know if it is her inexperience or what, but when she said at the debate that she agreed with how Cheney has run things as the VP and she would try to emulate it, a big red flag went up for me.

Lieberman, Ridge, then someone else who was also pro choice. Those choices would not have helped him with the fundies.

So let's look at the three candidates, since I'm including Palin as a surrogate given McCain's health history.

It's not like he's on his death bed, he's just older than average. There doesn't even appear to be any lingering effects of his minor bout with skin cancer.

I agree, but given who he has chosen for VP, I think it has to be entered into the equation.

That makes no sense. Because he picked someone you don't like (and I don't either) we should assume he may die?

[troy 12]

I don't really understand that analogy, first people are drawn to the best player, but it's oftentimes not the best player who is in actuality the leader? I'd say an argument like that is more of an indictment of Obama, it makes it seem as though he may not be most skilled, but is the most adept at convincing others to follow? I hope I'm not being dense as I did go to sleep at 6:30AM, but I don't think the sports comparison really applies.

[Jason Harris 31]

Rumor has it that McCain wanted Lieberman to be his VP, but the old guard of the party wouldn't let that happen. It would explain a lot as to why the decision seemed to be so rushed. I don't know if it is her inexperience or what, but when she said at the debate that she agreed with how Cheney has run things as the VP and she would try to emulate it, a big red flag went up for me.

That's interesting you wrote that, because I was just about to say that his best choice would have been Lieberman.

Think about the message to the undecideds: "I used to be a Democrat, but I switched allegiances because I realized John McCain is the best man to lead this country."

I personally don't agree with that, but it sure is a powerful statement.

I don't really understand that analogy, first people are drawn to the best player, but it's oftentimes not the best player who is in actuality the leader? I'd say an argument like that is more of an indictment of Obama, it makes it seem as though he may not be most skilled, but is the most adept at convincing others to follow? I hope I'm not being dense as I did go to sleep at 6:30AM, but I don't think the sports comparison really applies.

What I'm saying is too often people assume the best player is or should be the leader, even to the point of getting frustrated when that best player won't speak up, even if that's not his nature. Yet there will be a third-line center who only has three years in the league whose personality is captivating, so people follow what he says. Even if he is wrong, since being a leader doesn't mean you are always right, as Custer showed.

Maybe it's a stretch to compare the best player to experience, but it's not a stretch to say there are leaders in locker rooms whose accomplishments wouldn't have appeared to have earned them that respect. Yet people get lazy and assume the best player or most experienced is "the leader."

Again, the point is leadership abilities are not based on experience.

That makes no sense. Because he picked someone you don't like (and I don't either) we should assume he may die?

No. Because he picked someone who even members of his own party feel is unqualified to succeed him, then the prudent voter has to consider there is a far greater chance that he might succumb to the actuary tables sooner than his competitor might.

Of course, you have that whole sickle cell and arrhythmia thing to consider.....

Those choices would not have helped him with the fundies.

I think the fundies will still vote for a Republican who is pro-choice. It's akin to an environmentalist voting for a Democrat. Sure, maybe some will vote for obscure candidates to register their displeasure with the particular candidate, but the majority will still vote along party lines.

[Chadd 916]

I think the fundies will still vote for a Republican who is pro-choice. It's akin to an environmentalist voting for a Democrat. Sure, maybe some will vote for obscure candidates to register their displeasure with the particular candidate, but the majority will still vote along party lines.

The fear was that they would just stay home and not vote.

[chippa13 1844]

Think of it in terms of professional sports teams. Most people gravitate to the best player, which is one measurement of experience, but after reading the quotes it becomes apparent who the true leader is. It happened on the Red Sox during the early part of this decade when Manny, Nomar, Pedro and others were on the team, but it was obvious that Varitek was the leader. Sure enough, after the World Series, he was named the first captain they had in twenty years.

Not sure what your point is, Varitek and all those other guys all had about the same amount of experience in the majors.

[Jason Harris 31]

No, Nomar's first full season was two years prior to Varitek's, Manny's was four years prior and Pedro's was five years prior. And they were all stars, yet it was obvious long before Varitek was named captain (or an All-Star) that he was the leader of the team.

We could probably pick any team from any sport and find an "obscure" leader -- one whose experience or accomplishments don't seem to warrant the respect, but whose personality compels others to heed his advice.

By the way, I didn't say these traits are exclusive to each other. Brady and Jeter are both leaders and stars. My point only was experience or accomplishments are not necessarily prerequisites to being a leader. I used the sports analogy on a sports website, since I figured all of us have been on teams for which Johnny was the star but Bobby was who we listened to.

[chippa13 1844]

Shall we analyze further? Nomar was an outcast in the clubhouse (mostly of his own doing), Manny was a fruitcake who wanted out from the day he arrived, and Pedro wasn't too different from Manny. Hardly guys that you could look at for leadership.

[Jason Harris 31]

But that's the point, chippa.

And bringing it back to this topic, my assessment -- and mine only -- is McCain has more experience, but Obama appears to have the personality traits to be the better political leader.

[Chadd 916]

But that's the point, chippa.

And bringing it back to this topic, my assessment -- and mine only -- is McCain has more experience, but Obama appears to have the personality traits to be the better political leader.

That's an opinion. The more I read about Obama and his actions, the less I trust him. He's an empty suit with fantastic rhetoric.

[troy 12]

No substance. No one can argue that with a prepared speech and ample time he is an excellent orator, which is why so many people are drawn to his personality as Jason says, there's just nothing really tangible past that.

[kosydar 0]

Rumor has it that McCain wanted Lieberman to be his VP, but the old guard of the party wouldn't let that happen. It would explain a lot as to why the decision seemed to be so rushed. I don't know if it is her inexperience or what, but when she said at the debate that she agreed with how Cheney has run things as the VP and she would try to emulate it, a big red flag went up for me.

Lieberman, Ridge, then someone else who was also pro choice. Those choices would not have helped him with the fundies.

So let's look at the three candidates, since I'm including Palin as a surrogate given McCain's health history.

It's not like he's on his death bed, he's just older than average. There doesn't even appear to be any lingering effects of his minor bout with skin cancer.

I agree, but given who he has chosen for VP, I think it has to be entered into the equation.

That makes no sense. Because he picked someone you don't like (and I don't either) we should assume he may die?

Its funny thinking about Republicans and the choices that they've made now. Had Romney been the nominee (along with a traditional VP choice), the Republicans would have this election wrapped up by now. Its too bad for them that they chose a nominee on a terrorism platform rather than someone who would have fixed the economy. Had the financial crisis happened six months ago, this race would be completely different.

[chippa13 1844]

But that's the point, chippa.

And bringing it back to this topic, my assessment -- and mine only -- is McCain has more experience, but Obama appears to have the personality traits to be the better political leader.

That's an opinion. The more I read about Obama and his actions, the less I trust him. He's an empty suit with fantastic rhetoric.

I always laugh when I see his spot on what he intends to do with healthcare.

[Jason Harris 31]

But that's the point, chippa.

And bringing it back to this topic, my assessment -- and mine only -- is McCain has more experience, but Obama appears to have the personality traits to be the better political leader.

That's an opinion. The more I read about Obama and his actions, the less I trust him. He's an empty suit with fantastic rhetoric.

Of course it's an opinion.

I've gone in the opposite direction in the past year. There's no doubt I find him like ANY politician -- saying a lot while not saying anything -- but when I compare their two platforms, I think he cares more about the little guy than McCain does.

By the way, going back to the sports analogy, maybe the following will clarify what I was trying to say. We often read about players that other players, scouts, managers, etc. say will be a coach one day. There's something about their mind for the game, as well as their personality to teach/lead, which causes others to predict they one day will be a coach or manager. Boston fans have read it about Sam Cassell with the C's and Varitek, Cora and Kapler with the Sox, the latter two of whom were utility players.

Before someone responds that they are older and, therefore, more experienced players, we really have no idea how long people have been making this prediction about them. Again, leadership is a byproduct of personality traits.

[jimmy 194]

I was wrong on that. So he did comamnd the training squadron. It pretty much seems like a pitty assignment. Not sure how you can justify putting a guy that lsot 5 planes in command of a squadron. Not exactly the guy you wat teaching pilots.

You don't know much about the military do you?

Yeah actually I do. I am a Gulf War vet. How about yourself? I have seen plenty of general's kids and politicians' kids get commands or special treatmet due to who their daddy or mommy is, in fact it happens pretty frequently. I even watched one son of a US congressman get a TI removed from duty, because he called his dad and told him the TI wasn't treating him right.

Myself, 29 yrs, Beruit and Desert Storm. And I understand training squadrons.. They are not a pity assignment as you stated, and not trivial. It is typical that training squadrons loose more planes. This has nothing to do with politics.

[Chadd 916]

But that's the point, chippa.

And bringing it back to this topic, my assessment -- and mine only -- is McCain has more experience, but Obama appears to have the personality traits to be the better political leader.

That's an opinion. The more I read about Obama and his actions, the less I trust him. He's an empty suit with fantastic rhetoric.

Of course it's an opinion.

I've gone in the opposite direction in the past year. There's no doubt I find him like ANY politician -- saying a lot while not saying anything -- but when I compare their two platforms, I think he cares more about the little guy than McCain does.

I think he plays off the class warfare thing more than anyone I've seen in a while. We can't afford the hundreds of billions in increased spending he has promised and the democratic congress and senate will rubber stamp his proposals without reading them. That scares me as much as Bush having a republican legislature rubber stamp his wants.

[Jason Harris 31]

I believe there have been independent organizations which have assessed his economic platform should help the economy better than McCain's.

I agree about the rubber stamping. It seems to me our system has been fairest when Congress is fairly even. That way, it's less likely that polarizing laws get bullied through, although it can lead to slower progress. That's where the President has to present a compelling argument to get the other side to see the benefits of particular legislation.

The truth is I really hate partisan politics!

[Chadd 916]

I believe there have been independent organizations which have assessed his economic platform should help the economy better than McCain's.

The truth is I really hate partisan politics!

I've seen that claim made by both sides, but I agree with your last statement more than I can say.

[Jason Harris 31]

No kidding. I'm not in their position, so I'm only guessing, but it seems like they get frozen by the fear of losing the support of the party. Or maybe it would be better to say the support of the party's supporters. Stem cell research is a great example. I suspect a lot more Republicans recognize the incredible medical potential, but they don't feel they can afford to publicly announce that.

I may have been espousing Obama, but my ideal candidate would support issues on both sides of center.

[henkka 0]

debation time!