Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[Chadd 916]

100/50 FBV is more like a 1" ROH....

1/2" ROH is more like 95/75

You are incorrect, 100/50 is considered similar to 1/2". Please see this chart http://www.blackstonesport.com/FBV_Comparison_Chart.pdf

I do think you are correct in suggesting 95/75, though. Most of the guys on my team came from 1/2" and all but one prefers 95/75 to 1/2"

[chiefs17 2]

Hey Folks,

After much research on this board, I finally picked up an X01 a couple of weeks ago (3 kids in hockey, plus myself). I thought I would post a couple of comments/questions to the board based on my experience so far.

All parts for the sharpener arrived fine, and shipped quickly. I put everything together following the instructions. A couple of things that I found that don't seem quite right, the wheel rubs on the bottom of the opening in the housing unless it is placed just right. As the wheel shrinks I think this will be unavoidable. The good news is that the wheel grinds its own opening, but this doesn't seem right. Also, the wheel does not spin perfectly level, it is off by about 1/16 of an inch from highest to lowest. Because the spinner does not dress the blade in the same place as where the skate is sharpened, this means that the shape will be distorted. Wondering if anyone else has seen either of these issues.

Took me a while to get skates sharpened to something usable. A couple of issues I ran into with the FBV and the X01:

- Adjusting the skate up and down in the holder is not straightforward. For FBV, the bat gage will show a level sharpening for a wide range of heights. I think this is because the 'fangs' on FBV are so small that when one is missing or too small, the gage is still within one mark.

- Best way to tell if you are on track is to use the gage for a gross alignment, and just feeling the blade with your thumb in each direction to make sure there is a good sharp edge that feels the same (still working on getting this right)

- I am constantly dressing the wheel, at least once per skate. This is probably right, but more than I thought would be necessary.

Overall, I am disappointed with the build quality of the machine, and I'm also thinking that starting with a ROH may be best for a beginner.

As for the skates themselves, they don't feel like they have quite the same bit as a 1'2" ROH, but the glide is good (I have a 100/50 FBV).

Don

Hi Don, welcome to the forum, and the world of home sharpening. For the opening in the housing, I'm assuming you're talking about the top cover. Yeah, you can just leave that thing off the machine, it will never allow you to get full use out of your wheels. Plus it's easier to clean the machine if you don't have to remove the cover and re-install it every time you want to hit it with the vacuum. It is a safety device, so don't go sticking your digits in the spinning parts when she's running! And don't wear a tie or gold chains when sharpening. Seriously, it would look really odd.

As far as the wheel not spinning perfectly level, you might have a bad Wheel Hub, or a bad grinding wheel. The hub that came with my machine was way out, and I had to have it machined to get it near perfect. I would call Blackstone, especially since you just bought the machine. They are helpful,so they will try to work with you. As far as the dressing taking place in a different spot than the sharpening, well the wheel is spinning so it doesn't matter. But if you have 1/16 of an inch runout, then you will never get a proper sharpening. Keep in mind, the total width of a player skate is about 1/8 of an inch. Can you take a video of this runout? A small dial indicator with a roller tip would be great, but I don't expect everyone to have that. Set it up so the tip is touching the grinding wheel, then rotate the wheel by hand to watch the runout on the dial. The build quality is so-so. I think most of the machine is decent, but the most important part, the wheel hub, is junk. They really need to improve/focus on the quality of this part.

Yes, try to learn sharpening with ROH if you have a spinner for that. It is much more forgiving, especially if you are having an issue with "slight" wheel runout. You will also get a better understanding of what the adjustments on the holder are doing. When you say "a wide range of heights" how many clicks are we talking? I'm seeing about 3-4 clicks will equate to about 1 line on the Batgauge. You will not be able to tell if skates are even by using your thumb. But you can take something flat, like a credit card or drivers license, and place it on the blade while eyeing down the length of the blade. Look for 90 degree angle between the card and blade on both sides. Hope this makes sense, you're making a "T" using your card and the blade. This is what I used to do before I had my own machine. Then you can show the "sharpener" how bad they are off. It will give you a pretty good reference.

Dressing the wheel once per skate is normal. Good luck and keep us posted!

[tomdonbo 0]

Hi Don, welcome to the forum, and the world of home sharpening. For the opening in the housing, I'm assuming you're talking about the top cover. Yeah, you can just leave that thing off the machine, it will never allow you to get full use out of your wheels. Plus it's easier to clean the machine if you don't have to remove the cover and re-install it every time you want to hit it with the vacuum. It is a safety device, so don't go sticking your digits in the spinning parts when she's running! And don't wear a tie or gold chains when sharpening. Seriously, it would look really odd.

As far as the wheel not spinning perfectly level, you might have a bad Wheel Hub, or a bad grinding wheel. The hub that came with my machine was way out, and I had to have it machined to get it near perfect. I would call Blackstone, especially since you just bought the machine. They are helpful,so they will try to work with you. As far as the dressing taking place in a different spot than the sharpening, well the wheel is spinning so it doesn't matter. But if you have 1/16 of an inch runout, then you will never get a proper sharpening. Keep in mind, the total width of a player skate is about 1/8 of an inch. Can you take a video of this runout? A small dial indicator with a roller tip would be great, but I don't expect everyone to have that. Set it up so the tip is touching the grinding wheel, then rotate the wheel by hand to watch the runout on the dial. The build quality is so-so. I think most of the machine is decent, but the most important part, the wheel hub, is junk. They really need to improve/focus on the quality of this part.

Yes, try to learn sharpening with ROH if you have a spinner for that. It is much more forgiving, especially if you are having an issue with "slight" wheel runout. You will also get a better understanding of what the adjustments on the holder are doing. When you say "a wide range of heights" how many clicks are we talking? I'm seeing about 3-4 clicks will equate to about 1 line on the Batgauge. You will not be able to tell if skates are even by using your thumb. But you can take something flat, like a credit card or drivers license, and place it on the blade while eyeing down the length of the blade. Look for 90 degree angle between the card and blade on both sides. Hope this makes sense, you're making a "T" using your card and the blade. This is what I used to do before I had my own machine. Then you can show the "sharpener" how bad they are off. It will give you a pretty good reference.

Dressing the wheel once per skate is normal. Good luck and keep us posted!

Thanks for the feedback, I will get in touch with blackstone about the wheel being off.

What I've noticed when sharpening is that going 3-4 clicks either way on the holder doesn't make a difference on the batgage. I am still using it to make sure I'm not way off, but my thought is that with FBV it isn't as useful.

Don

[customskateworks 39]

I would not recommend operating the machine without the wheel cover securely in place. While it does not happen often (especially if you're "ring" testing your grinding wheels before using them), wheels do blow up sometimes. When it happens while it's spinning at 4400 RPM, you and any exposed body parts will be thankful those guards are there.

[tomdonbo 0]

Quick question on grinding wheels.

I've already pretty much used up one wheel. Hopefully this is just due to be being new at this...

Which wheel do folks prefer? Orange, pink etc. Anyone know what the difference is? Which ones are finer/coarser? Which last longer?

Also noticed the shipping cost to Ottawa is brutal. Anyone ever find a local source?

Thanks,

Don

[forbs02 20]

I would not recommend operating the machine without the wheel cover securely in place. While it does not happen often (especially if you're "ring" testing your grinding wheels before using them), wheels do blow up sometimes. When it happens while it's spinning at 4400 RPM, you and any exposed body parts will be thankful those guards are there.

Had this happen once. I did the ring test...thought it sounded a little funny but put it on anyway. Turned the machine on, a loud POP, and the wheel was in a million pieces. It also bent the wheel guard out, so it is a good thing it was in place.

[raganblink 82]

What is the ring test? We've yet to have a wheel blowup - just make sure spacer is on & its tightened down snug and we've been fine.

[kazin 1]

What's the closest I can get to a 3/8" traditional hollow? Is it 100/75? If so, what is that equivalent to in terms of traditional? Thanks in advance.

[customskateworks 39]

What is the ring test? We've yet to have a wheel blowup - just make sure spacer is on & its tightened down snug and we've been fine.

Hang the wheel on something (screwdriver, pencil, etc.) and tap it (I use the wheel wrench). A good wheel makes a "ringing" sound. A wheel that has internal damage, that may not be visible, will make a dead "thunking" sound.

[raganblink 82]

Huh, good to know. I just checked my stock & it sounded like a church! Ill have to do this in the future when wheels come in. Thanks

[hockeydad3 51]

Hello,

finally my X-02 arrived. It is working without any problems out of the box. I did my first experiments with two pairs of skates which are not in use. An old youth 12 size Bauer with carbon steel runner and one quite new junior CCM 03 with stainless runner. I noticed quite a huge difference between the two steels. Stainless feels more forgiving in case of pressure and speed during grinding. It was a litlle tricky to get the feeling for the calibration of the holder. But i managed to get pretty even edges. I was using an orange wheel and a 1/2" ROH spinner. I noticed two problems:

1. The hollow seems quite shallow compared to the 1/2" i used to get around here. I used an AA battery to compare with the hollow of the spinner and the spinner was shallower than the battery. Does anyone know exactly about the diameter of an 1/2 ROH circle ? is it 1/2" or 1" (13 or 26 mm) ? I found some information that the diameter should be 1/2" like an AA battery.

2. I can feel some nicks in the edges after grinding and deburring. Where can they come from ? Are there still some burrs left ?

3. The the black line one the grinding wheel after using the fineshine is not in the middle of the wheel. Is this ok ?

Martin

Edited January 23, 2014 by hockeydad3

[wrangler 157]

ROH is "Radius Of Hollow". Diameter is always 2X the radius of a circle, by definition.

Diameter of a AA battery looks to me like about 9/16", making its radius about 9/32".

Edited January 24, 2014 by wrangler

[hockeydad3 51]

ROH is "Radius Of Hollow". Diameter is always 2X the radius of a circle, by definition.

Diameter of a AA battery looks to me like about 5/16", making its radius about 5/32".

Hi,

the diameter of an AA battery is 11mm, which compares to 6.9/16". But there is some confusion about the definition of ROH. I found this Information:

Q. How can I tell whether I have a 1/2 inch or 3/8 inch ROH? A. There is a simple test to find out which ROH your shop is using to grind your blades. Simple that is, if you have an AA-sized battery and/or an AAA-sized battery lying around somewhere.[TEST: If an AA-sized battery fits almost perfectly into the hollow of your blade, with little or no light coming through underneath, then you have a 1/2-inch ROH. If, on the other hand, the hollow is so small that only an AAA-sized battery will rest perfectly in it, then you most likely have a 3/8-inch ROH.][NOTE: there is a universal misunderstanding [actually total confusion] as to what the word radius in ROH really means. The word radius here actually refers to the segment of a circle formed by a diameter corresponding to the fraction stated. In other words, an ROH of 1/2 inch means that the blade is ground with a radius that corresponds to a segment of a circle having a diameter of 1/2 inch, the radius, as such, is MATHEMATICALLY NOT 1/2 inch.]

on http://www.skatemate.com/questions.html

[notquitedeadyet 13]

Wrangler is absolutely correct*, & I am totally amazed that they would get that wrong.

I hope that wasn't written by the person that engineered their products...

*edit: except that a AA battery is actually about 9/16", so the radius is still only 9/32, or slightly more than 1/4"

Edited January 24, 2014 by notquitedeadyet

[hockeydad3 51]

Wrangler is absolutely correct*, & I am totally amazed that they would get that wrong.

I hope that wasn't written by the person that engineered their products...

*edit: except that a AA battery is actually about 9/16", so the radius is still only 9/32, or slightly more than 1/4"

They did. I own a similar product and the honing cylinder is quite similar to an AA-battery. I never got the sharpener working properly.

I used a C-battery (26 mm diameter ~ 1" diameter) to compare with the 1/2"ROH-spinner and it had a quite perfect fit.

So my conlusion is that i sometimes got a more hollow sharpening for my kids skates than i ordered. And the "shallow" sharpenings i got had the hollow i ordered.

It`s good to have my own machine.

Edited January 24, 2014 by hockeydad3

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

Hang the wheel on something (screwdriver, pencil, etc.) and tap it (I use the wheel wrench). A good wheel makes a "ringing" sound. A wheel that has internal damage, that may not be visible, will make a dead "thunking" sound.

So, a finger and a knuckle doesn't work? :)

raganblink - next time you change out wheels, drop the bad one flat from about a foot off the ground, then ring test it. You'll know the sound when it's bad.

Had this happen once. I did the ring test...thought it sounded a little funny but put it on anyway. Turned the machine on, a loud POP, and the wheel was in a million pieces. It also bent the wheel guard out, so it is a good thing it was in place.

Eeek. It's never happened to me but I hear it's crazy when it does. Glad you had the guard on.

I've seen so many guys sharpen without it and they're just asking for trouble.

[wrangler 157]

Hi,

the diameter of an AA battery is 11mm, which compares to 6.9/16". But there is some confusion about the definition of ROH. I found this Information:

Q. How can I tell whether I have a 1/2 inch or 3/8 inch ROH? A. There is a simple test to find out which ROH your shop is using to grind your blades. Simple that is, if you have an AA-sized battery and/or an AAA-sized battery lying around somewhere.[TEST: If an AA-sized battery fits almost perfectly into the hollow of your blade, with little or no light coming through underneath, then you have a 1/2-inch ROH. If, on the other hand, the hollow is so small that only an AAA-sized battery will rest perfectly in it, then you most likely have a 3/8-inch ROH.][NOTE: there is a universal misunderstanding [actually total confusion] as to what the word radius in ROH really means. The word radius here actually refers to the segment of a circle formed by a diameter corresponding to the fraction stated. In other words, an ROH of 1/2 inch means that the blade is ground with a radius that corresponds to a segment of a circle having a diameter of 1/2 inch, the radius, as such, is MATHEMATICALLY NOT 1/2 inch.]

on http://www.skatemate.com/questions.html

Yes, I added 1/16" to 1/4" instead of 1/2" when I looked at it. My QC circuit apparently didn't notice that the numbers didn't pass the smell test. I will correct that.

The part I bolded makes no sense to me. Radius is the distance from the center of a circle to the circumference. Diameter is a chord drawn through the center of the circle. It necessarily equals two radii. Segment is a completely different animal and has no application here.

It appears that they're trying to say it's a "DOH" rather than a "ROH". I haven't seen that stated before, and can't speak to it, as I am not a sharpener.

Wrangler is absolutely correct*, & I am totally amazed that they would get that wrong.

I hope that wasn't written by the person that engineered their products...

*edit: except that a AA battery is actually about 9/16", so the radius is still only 9/32, or slightly more than 1/4"

[AfftonDad 88]

I think you guys are actually saying that the radius in ROH does in fact mean radius (and not diameter) after all. I hope I'm reading you right. Because I did the math once and thought I understood where Blackstone gets their FBV to ROH comparisons, but that was all based on radius MEANING radius. If it is in fact diameter, I'm going to be completely confused.

[wrangler 157]

You can google "skate roh" and read about it on a lot of web pages.

Here's one from No Icing: http://noicingsports.com/skate_sharpening_radius.html

Unsurprisingly, it shows "radius" as a radius.

[lovejotd 1]

If I do the black marker test (put a line of black marker on the blade of my skate and run the skate across 2-3 times), and it only cuts the top half (or leaves a little black on the top), what are my steps?

If I do the black marker test, and it only cuts the bottom half (or leaves a little black on the bottom), what are my steps?

I am using a FC-01 machine with the Tri-Lie Holder

Does anyone who is an expert on this live in the Northern Virginia/DC area and would be willing to meet me and give me a quick lesson? I am having a harder time then I thought getting this machine to work. I would work around your schedule.

Edited January 25, 2014 by lovejotd

[hockeydad3 51]

You can google "skate roh" and read about it on a lot of web pages.

Here's one from No Icing: http://noicingsports.com/skate_sharpening_radius.html

Unsurprisingly, it shows "radius" as a radius.

Well it seems that it`s just a question of the definition of "ROH for skate-sharpeníng".

The Skatemate-hand-sharpener uses a cylinder with a diameter of 1/2" and blackstone a grindingwheel dressed with the diameter of 1". Both postulate that they produce a 1/2" hollow-grind on the skate.

Some posts ago someone compared a blackstone-spinner-1/2"ROH with a wissota-diamond-dresser-1/2"ROH by messuring the produced hollow with a high-tech-tool. Both ROH semed to be quite the same.

If we want to end the discussion about ROH, we should ask the big skate-sharpening-machine-producing-companys for the official definition of ROH ;).

[hockeydad3 51]

If I do the black marker test (put a line of black marker on the blade of my skate and run the skate across 2-3 times), and it only cuts the top half (or leaves a little black on the top), what are my steps?

If I do the black marker test, and it only cuts the bottom half (or leaves a little black on the bottom), what are my steps?

I am using a FC-01 machine with the Tri-Lie Holder

Does anyone who is an expert on this live in the Northern Virginia/DC area and would be willing to meet me and give me a quick lesson? I am having a harder time then I thought getting this machine to work. I would work around your schedule.

I think it would be quite useful for you to read some articles in the web about skate sharpening. A good tip is the wissota skate sharpener homepage. The black marker test and the whittness marking test are only working when the edges are even before you beginn to sharpen. Otherwhise you should check for even edges with a measuring tool or a credit card after some passes. If the higher edge is on the top you should go down (the black line is left on the top and the whittness-mark is on the bottom) and vice versa.

[hockeydad3 51]

Yesterday evening my eight year old goalie was moaning about his dull edges and there was no chance to get them sharpened until todays training.

So i decided yesterday to do my first sharpening for an official training before i had the chance for a test on the ice during a public skating.

Wow i`m a lucky guy.

He wants them sharpened again the same way for the next time. He said that his skates are very sharp but he likes them that way.

I sharpened them 1/2" ROH with my new X-02. He usually gets them sharpened 1/2" or what is named a players-cut. The result was different depending from shop to shop or from sharpening-guy to sharpening-guy and uneven edges have been usual.

I´m looking forward to get more experiance and to test FBV.

[wrangler 157]

Well it seems that it`s just a question of the definition of "ROH for skate-sharpeníng".

The Skatemate-hand-sharpener uses a cylinder with a diameter of 1/2" and blackstone a grindingwheel dressed with the diameter of 1". Both postulate that they produce a 1/2" hollow-grind on the skate.

Some posts ago someone compared a blackstone-spinner-1/2"ROH with a wissota-diamond-dresser-1/2"ROH by messuring the produced hollow with a high-tech-tool. Both ROH semed to be quite the same.

If we want to end the discussion about ROH, we should ask the big skate-sharpening-machine-producing-companys for the official definition of ROH ;).

I don't think you need to ask a company in order to find out the diameter/radius of the wheels used to sharpen skates. Any sharpener should know facts such as you found for the Blackstone. I already gave you one example. No Icing obviously knows, and it's generally accepted that jimmy knows his business. Skatemate is obviously confused, since the referenced statement regarding geometry is incoherent.

[notquitedeadyet 13]

Skatemate is obviously confused, since the referenced statement regarding geometry is incoherent.

I'm not convinced Skatemate is confused, I find it hard to believe they got the design all the way to production without someone realizing the mistake.

Instead, I think it's marketing double-talk to hide the truth about their product: its nothing more than a glorified hand hone that stones both sides of the blade at once, & does effectivly nothing inside the hollow. I wonder if they found out early in the design that if they tried to match the radius of the hollow, it often did more harm than good. Either because it was too complicated to design something that tightly kept it perfectly centered for the slightly different thickness blades, or maybe it wiped out the high side edge in un-evenly sharpened blades. Not to mention what would happen if someone had a deeper hollow than they thought. So they took the easy way out & designed something that would seem to work as advertised, but actually never really gets close to the edges within the hollow. So nobody ends up with a worse edge than they started with. Then when someone caught on & questioned it, they let the marketing department handle the answer.

Or maybe your right & I'm just giving them too much credit.

Edited January 26, 2014 by notquitedeadyet