Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

Yes, the machine includes the Spinner dress system.

[GSH13 0]

Dang. After all the work I've put into customizing this Wissota I'd hate to buy a whole new machine.

[Chadd 916]

Dang. After all the work I've put into customizing this Wissota I'd hate to buy a whole new machine.

Having owned both, there is no comparison. In terms of ease of use, performance and, of course, the FBV, the X01 comes out far ahead.

[epstud74 24]

Any of you skate on a 3/4 before going to a FBV just to see if you can adapt? It isnt for everybody.

[Neal 41]

Any of you skate on a 3/4 before going to a FBV just to see if you can adapt? It isnt for everybody.

I skated on 3/4 through 7/8 depending on ice conditions. I adapted pretty quickly to the FBV. I think I was on 90/75. I actually went back to 3/4 for the summer as a training aid. I figured I had to work so much harder for my speed and lost my glide so much quicker on the the 3/4 that when I went back to FBV for league games I'd at least feel faster. It might be a placebo, but those work too.

[althoma1 574]

Neal Posted Today, 09:01 AM

QUOTE (epstud74 @ Aug 12 2009, 01:20 AM)

Any of you skate on a 3/4 before going to a FBV just to see if you can adapt? It isnt for everybody.

I skated on 3/4 through 7/8 depending on ice conditions. I adapted pretty quickly to the FBV. I think I was on 90/75. I actually went back to 3/4 for the summer as a training aid. I figured I had to work so much harder for my speed and lost my glide so much quicker on the the 3/4 that when I went back to FBV for league games I'd at least feel faster. It might be a placebo, but those work too.

I also skated on 3/4 and 7/8 before going to the 90/75 FBV. It initially felt a little strange, but I got used to it after a session or two and really appreciated the extra glide while having better grip. I tried the 90/50 FBV for the first time at a pickup game on Monday night and love that cut. I felt more comfortable on that right away and it will now be sticking with that cut going forward. I'd recommend trying both the 90/75 and 90/50 cut for a few skates before deciding if its right for you or you want to stick with a regular hollow. I now prefer the FBV and my new favourite cut is 90/50, but I could still skate comfortably with the 90/75 cut.

Edited August 12, 2009 by althoma1

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

You'll prob have to drop down to 90/75 in the winter.

[GKC 0]

You'll prob have to drop down to 90/75 in the winter.

......Just curious JR.

I'm wondering if you would, with FBV, need to adjust your sharpening winter vs summer?

I'm in southern Ontario and haven't really noticed a difference in bite or glide

during the summer. Course it could be that the ice I'm on is extremely hard (it's at the local university and the place is wikid freezing cold).

I'm sure it depends where you are. Does the ice change a ton in the winter in the south? I've never skated south of Ohio, so I have no reference.....

I would think that FBV being not a deep cut, would be a HUGE advantage in climates where the ice changes drastically...IE: you wouldn't need to alter what your used to.

...just wonderin'

-G

[Ahriman 1]

More like depends on the rink your in.

Some places have a hard time keeping the ice hardness consistent throughout the year; I'd say it has more to do with humidity changes than temperature changes seeing how I've seen more year round ice rinks on the outskirts of california cities than outside Chicago.

[squashguy 0]

You don't need to buy a whole new machine, look at this

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=62413...p;highlight=fbv

Dang. After all the work I've put into customizing this Wissota I'd hate to buy a whole new machine.

[GSH13 0]

You don't need to buy a whole new machine, look at this

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=62413...p;highlight=fbv

Dang. After all the work I've put into customizing this Wissota I'd hate to buy a whole new machine.

Yeah I showed my father who is a tool maker for an aerospace company and the first thing he said was that the spinner system is definitely not worth the money and something similar (like the one in the link) could be made without much trouble.

[squashguy 0]

Klemer,

chances are that your skate holder is off pitch. I know if you hold a flatedge on the blade and have a light behind it, you can see how the fbv looks and whether the flat part is flat and if the fangs are even. If the skate holder is at the right height, but the pitch is off, you will end up with a deeper flat on one side. If the pitch is right but the height is off, you'll get a flat bottom, but the edges will be off.

Is anyone having trouble with their FBV mini spinners. I've been having difficulty getting equally sharp edges even though the edges are the same length ( according to bat gauge). With my 100/50 spinner I can clearly see a steeper edge on one side of the flat. When put on a skate blade that edge is very sharp and seems to stay sharp but the other edge feels about half as keen and needs to be sharpened after about an hour on the ice. The hollow is also deeper on that side of the blade. When compared to the 90/75 visually the hollow on the 100/50 is deeper, but I'm also getting one sharper edge with my 90/75.

Is this common or does anyone have any tips to help me out or is their a chance I got a bad spinner.

thanks.

what kind of customization have you done to your wissota?

I've built a profiling/contouring apparatus for mine.

Yeah I showed my father who is a tool maker for an aerospace company and the first thing he said was that the spinner system is definitely not worth the money and something similar (like the one in the link) could be made without much trouble.

Edited August 16, 2009 by squashguy

[GSH13 0]

what kind of customization have you done to your wissota?

I've built a profiling/contouring apparatus for mine.

Yeah I showed my father who is a tool maker for an aerospace company and the first thing he said was that the spinner system is definitely not worth the money and something similar (like the one in the link) could be made without much trouble.

Ground the grinding surface completely flat. It varied a little straight from the manufacturer. That was a pretty minor mod.

The biggest one was that we changed the holder quite a bit. We positioned the one single dial in the back stationary with the face of the holder completely perpendicular to the grinding surface using a machinists' square. Then we have two dials that each control one side of the holder with indicators (similar to the one in the picture) on each side. For each side one dial moves the holder on that side up or down in increments that can be read on the indicator..and one dial to lock the holder into position. If this is hard to understand I can post some pictures if your interested.

[mckjim 2]

GSH13,

Please post the pictures, I got lost trying to follow the number of dials and what they do. Thanks in advance for the pictures, I am sure it will clear up my curiosity. Also, squashguy, I am curious how you understand there to be even edges when checked for square and that the FBV is uneven. As I understood it, if the edges are even, square to one another, then the FBV is perfectly centered. I have done skates for a number of years on other machines and have done many pairs of BS FBV and I cannot seem to grasp the concept of even or square edges and an uneven or "unsquare" FBV. Because of the nature and design of the three way angle adjustment on the holder, I had it explained to me many posts ago by SAK and others, that if the edges were square to one another, then the FBV was centered. Even with the standard ROH, you can adjust the holder to square the edges by adjusting pitch with the two front dials. After getting the holder dialed in, if the edges are uneven, I can raise or lower the holder by adjusting the two front dials, thereby correcting any difference in "pitch". I have found in my experiance with the BS X02 holder and the Tri-lie holder that making adjustments to the front two dials will correct unveven edges. For example, when using a skate square guage, if the grinding wheel is hitting the edges too low across the length of the blade, i.e., the holder is adjusted too high to the face of the grinding wheel, by one thousandths of an inch, I can adjust the holder by dialing "down" the front two dials 6 clicks each. With my holders, it is approximately 6 clicks for every one thousnadth of an inch adjustment. I maybe doing this wrong if square edges does not mean a square FBV, please elaborate more. Thanks.

[squashguy 0]

If a 1/2" hollow requires the holder to be adjusted in one dimension (height). The wissota actually changes pitch to achieve the height change but this will only work for round hollows.

The FBV requires adjustment in two dimensions (height and pitch). The Blackstone has three knobs, supposedly the front two change only height, and the single one changes pitch, but in reality changing height a lot also changes the pitch slightly.

When i had my XO1 shipped to me with the sticker saying 'don't adjust the pitch knob, it's aligned for hockey skates', my holder was so low, the skate blade pointed up at the wheel. I could still get even edges with a 1/2" radius, but I get the same problem you have with fbv cuts. I had to turn the pitch knob like 30 turns to get it even near the same height of the wheel. Basically you want the bottom of your skate blade to point exactly at the flat and perpendicular to the flat of the FBV. The good thing is, once you have your pitch set, you should just need to make small height adjustments.

This is why the wissota can get away with tilting the holder to get even edges, but think about an imaginary skate blade that's REALLY tall, say one inch from the blade to the holder. If the holder is tilting the blade down, you could get even edges in the center of the blade, but on either side the edges will be uneven because the blade is contacting the wheel higher. I do like what GSH13 is trying to do because he's trying to adjust the height only, not the pitch, and this should help the above problem, however GSH, correct me if i'm wrong, but if the back piece is stationary, the front two knobs still adjust the pitch slightly as well as height.

GSH13,

As I understood it, if the edges are even, square to one another, then the FBV is perfectly centered. I have done skates for a number of years on other machines and have done many pairs of BS FBV and I cannot seem to grasp the concept of even or square edges and an uneven or "unsquare" FBV. Because of the nature and design of the three way angle adjustment on the holder, I had it explained to me many posts ago by SAK and others, that if the edges were square to one another, then the FBV was centered.

[Jordan 13]

Warning: potentially dumb question about to appear....but

Why couldn't a realtively simple jig be machined that attached to the grinding wheel with guides that extend forward from the grinding wheel (picture two flat plates that are parallel, spaced at the exact width of a skate blade), that could be used to set the the level of the holder perfectly?

So, if your are still with me, one side the device would have a slot that would slide onto the actual grinding wheel; then the skate blade would only fit into the guides (ie into a slot on the other side) when the holder was the correct height and pitch.

Then remove the device and you would be good to go.

Comments?

Edited August 16, 2009 by Jordan

[squashguy 0]

i believe this is the system that Fleming Gray came up with on their old machines, but has a clamp that clamps from the top.

Unless the bottom clamp is adjustable, the problem is that not all skate blades are the same thickness and a thicker blade will be too high on the wheel. There are some holders that clamp from both sides, so all blades will be centered, but definitely not on a low-priced machine. It's easy to get a device that's centered on the wheel, the key is to get the blade centered in the device to within thousandths of an inch.

Warning: potentially dumb question about to appear....but

Why couldn't a realtively simple jig be machined that attached to the grinding wheel with guides that extend forward from the grinding wheel (picture two flat plates that are parallel, spaced at the exact width of a skate blade), that could be used to set the the level of the holder perfectly?

So, if your are still with me, one side the device would have a slot that would slide onto the actual grinding wheel; then the skate blade would only fit into the guides (ie into a slot on the other side) when the holder was the correct height and pitch.

Then remove the device and you would be good to go.

Comments?

Edited August 16, 2009 by squashguy

[mckjim 2]

squashguy, or anyone else that understands the mechanics of these things,

I realize that the pitch knob or dial must be adjusted to have the holder "close" to being square, but as I mentioned, once the holder is dialed in, the front two knobs or dials on the "Tri-Lie" or three way adjustable holder is much more easily adjustable in small increments than a Wissota or E-Z Sharp type holder. I have used the single knob adjustable holders you are referring to, and they offer no adjustment to correct a change in height of a skate from left to right along the entire length of the blade. In other words, if I sharpen a skate and find the left or right end of the skate blade is off, not square to the other end, they offer no adjustment. But I am still curious if I was taught correctly, that once the skate holder is dialed in, the adjustment of the front two knobs or dials are actually adjusting pitch and height relative to the grinding wheel. At first I thought that the holder should be adjusted to hit the center of the grinding wheel. If it hit the center of the grinding wheel, then the edges must be even, I thought. However, I learned when I bought my first BladeMaster machine that the height of the grinding wheel relative to the center of the cam/diamond dresser were not always going to be in the center of the grinding wheel. BladeMaster explained to me that there are variances in the relative heights of one grinding wheel to another, shims can be used etc, but that I should be centering my skate holder to the center of the dressing put on the wheel, not just to the center of the wheel itself. It was my understanding that the BS FBV worked the same way. That what is important is finding the center of the FBV dressing on the wheel, which might not be exactly on the center of the grinding wheel, and therefore it was necessary to make adjustments with the front two knobs or dials until you find the center of the FBV on your grinding wheel, and then you make adjustments to the left and right front knobs or dials until the edges were square to each other along the entire length of the blade. I hope this is not confusing anyone, but after reading your earlier post I am just curious if I am missing something in how these machines and their holders are supposed to be set up. I have now done well over 1000 skates with FBV on an X02 using the method I described above and I have only had to make slight adjustments from skate to skate, usually because of the steel being from different manufacturers. The adjustments I have had to make were slight, i.e., only about one to two thousandths of an inch variance, but I like to try for perfect alignment on every skate. Thanks for your reply in advance.

[squashguy 0]

that's absolutely right, you need to be in the center of the dressed hollow, maybe not the exact center of the wheel.

The wissota skate holder does have cam adjustments that will adjust the left/right height. I find I only need to readjust that if I drop the holder on the floor and it goes out of whack. The tri-lie makes that easier to adjust.

I'd say as long as you're getting a flat bottom on your fbv, your pitch knob is set right and you will only need small adjustments with the other two knobs. I only started chiming in on this when I thought klemer's pitch was way off like mine was (on the X01)

However, I learned when I bought my first BladeMaster machine that the height of the grinding wheel relative to the center of the cam/diamond dresser were not always going to be in the center of the grinding wheel.

[GSH13 0]

You don't need to buy a whole new machine, look at this

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=62413...p;highlight=fbv

Dang. After all the work I've put into customizing this Wissota I'd hate to buy a whole new machine.

I don't wanna harsh this guy's buzz, but I can see a major flaw in that design. He has no way of making sure the wheel is true. Yeah he might get the FBV on there but unlike the real spinner system there is no way for him to regulate how much of the wheel he is essentially "taking off." Thats why the true spinner system has a magnet that locks it into place and then a pillow block that allows the spinner wheel to be moved in and out in a regulated fashion.

Its a pretty simple design that Blackstone has come up with, but the real beauty of it is in that pillow block. And thats not something an everyday machinist has laying around.

[jagged 0]

I've actually used this little z-bracket, got the guy to make me one. It's really easy to use and get a nice light touch on the wheel. There are more out there, so there might be some feedback on that.

I would say it can touch lighter than the screw on the X01 or X02 because on those, you can't see the spinner, and the screw puts it into the wheel faster than you can by hand. You can also see that the spinner is spinning, where in the X01 you don't know that for sure.

Here's a question, how can you use the $1700 Blackstone thing on a table with a non-magnetic table? You'll have to push it by hand, just like you would the z-bracket.

I don't wanna harsh this guy's buzz, but I can see a major flaw in that design. He has no way of making sure the wheel is true. Yeah he might get the FBV on there but unlike the real spinner system there is no way for him to regulate how much of the wheel he is essentially "taking off." Thats why the true spinner system has a magnet that locks it into place and then a pillow block that allows the spinner wheel to be moved in and out in a regulated fashion.

Its a pretty simple design that Blackstone has come up with, but the real beauty of it is in that pillow block. And thats not something an everyday machinist has laying around.

[GSH13 0]

I never said I was going to use a $1700 Blackstone Spinner. I'm making an educated decision on whether a purchase is necessary or if I can make something that will work successfully;)

How do you check to make sure your wheel is true?

Also, looking for some input here that might change my opinion on the Z-block idea......is the wheel spinning fast enough when dressed that any discrepancies in pressure are negligible?...As far as the wheel staying true that is..

Edited August 17, 2009 by GSH13

[jagged 0]

Also, looking for some input here that might change my opinion on the Z-block idea......is the wheel spinning fast enough when dressed that any discrepancies in pressure are negligible?...As far as the wheel staying true that is..

I can come at the wheel from the front or the side, side give much more control because of the angle. I can just barely graze the grinding wheel and the spinner will start to spin. I can then let go of the skate holder, and wait for the spinner to stop spinning. No problems with wheel unbalancing, in fact this is the way to dress most grinding wheels to 'true'

[GSH13 0]

I'd like to see it in action, sounds like I over estimated the amount of resistance from the wheel if you can let go of the holder and it doesn't move.

[icnet 0]

Kid is going to be in Maple Grove next weekend. Could someone advise where would be the closest place to get the fbv. Thank you