Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[kevintung_2k 0]

Just ordered the X-01 today, can't wait!

[AfftonDad 88]

Long time listener, first time caller

OK, so I got my X-01 a few weeks ago, plus a 90/75 spinner and 100/75 spinner and the accessory kit. I have since bought an Edge-Pro edge checker to "supplement" my BatGauge. I have played hockey all my life and I am an engineer so I understand ROH and FBV. I recently upgraded the X-10 holder to an X-12 holder (apparently the same as the U-12 holder, but sized for the X-01) but I have not received it yet. I am new to sharpening but I practiced on some used steel and have now sharpened my skates and my 7 year old son's skates several times with the X-01 (90/75 for me and 100/75 for him) and it feels fine to me and he tells me his feel fine.

However, what I don't understand are the statements that I have read on here and from Blackstone that you can just leave the pitch wheel alone. Firstly, I don't think it would be there if it didn't have a purpose. And secondly it just doesn't make sense to me. In this picture(click here) in Figure 1 I show a dressed wheel (albeit the apex of the dressing is not at the midline of the wheel, just as would be typical in real life) and a blade that is parallel to the wheel and correctly adjusted for height. This would produce a correctly sharpened blade. Figure 2 shows a parallel blade that is adjusted too high and Figure 3 shows a parallel blade that is adjusted too low. Both of these would produce undesirable results. Now, if I follow the premise that the pitch wheel should be left alone (and let's assume that the toe and heel of the blade are at the same height), then if my state was that of Figure 2, I would adjust both the left and right wheels down by the same amount . I would eventually get to the position shown in Figure 4 where I have "even edges" in that both edges would be the same "height" as read by an edge checker, however, as shown in the picture the "flat" part of the FBV would not be at a right angle to the blade AND the triangles on each side (i.e., the edges) would have different sizes and angles.

Can somebody explain to me what I am missing here?

I think there needs to be a procedure for getting the blade parallel to the wheel (or perpendicular to the cutting plane of the wheel). Has anyone come up with such a procedure?

Thanks

-Mike

[BMcDonald19 0]

i skated three hours with 100-50, i love it! i am a believer now. the first like 20 minutes were weird. it felt like i had no egde but one i needed to dig in, there was plenty egde! i also couldn't believe how much glide i was able to get to. that important now that i only play mens league and back checking is optional!

[AfftonDad 88]

If anyone is interested...

The pictures that Blackstone puts on their site are of course not drawn to scale and exagerated to illustrate the effect. I was curious what the actual edge to flat relationship looked like. So I drew up each of the 4 common FBVs to scale (atlhough greatly enlarged) in the linked pdf file. I also included for reference each of the "corresponding" radial hollows and then finally overlaid them on top of each other for comparision. If you download the link and open it, you should zoom in qute a bit to avoid seeing the aliasing (jaggies or stairstepping) on the edges. When you look at them on top of each other, the difference is really substantial.

Here is the pdf (Click Here for pdf)

-Mike

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

I think there needs to be a procedure for getting the blade parallel to the wheel (or perpendicular to the cutting plane of the wheel). Has anyone come up with such a procedure?

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but, look at it?

I think you're putting a bit too much thought into this. Turn the machine off, put the blade on the wheel. You should have a general idea on where it is at.

For every line on your Pro Square, it is about 6 clicks on the holder in whatever direction.

[shotty 7]

Just ordered the X-01 today, can't wait!

yaaaaaa. i'me excited for you.

[AfftonDad 88]

That's what I have been doing, looking at it. I can't see 1/1000 of inches though. I guess my eyes aren't as good as yours!

No seriously, my son has a medical situation which causes his ankles to be significantly pronated when he skates. You can even see the pronation when he just stands in bare feet. So I don't want to compound the problem by having the flat part of the skate biased in the wrong direction, causing him to pronate even further.

[AfftonDad 88]

JR...

Actually, I just re-read your post and saw that you mention a Pro-Square for correcting the misalignment (I don't have a Pro-Square... I have a Edge-Pro which is a cheaper knock off... has holes drilled in it instead of lines and I have a BatGauge). I think you might have misunderstood my question. The picture I referenced illustrates that you can have the Pro-Square or the Edge-Pro or the BatGauge indicating that you have your edges perfectly at the same height but still have everything else jacked up. Edges at the same height do not mean skate blade is perpendicular to cutting plane. Skate blade not perpendicular to cutting plane means your flat will not be at the proper angle, your edges will not have equivalent angles and that the edges will not have the same depth, even if they are "at the same height".

Now if you were to say that after eyeballing it to "flat and level" to the middle of the flat on the wheel, the errors that arise from making adjustments with ONLY the front two knobs cause insignificant errors in the things that I mentioned, I could probably believe that (I still might want to do the math though).

As I said before, I'm an engineer. Please forgive my affliction.

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

Ok...you're still over-thinking it.

The pitch knob has to be there because of the type of holder and the way it adjusts. They have it set at a certain height from factory because it takes the center of the grinding wheel into account. Blackstone will give you that measurement if you need it.

The old style lever style holder has a floating plate that moves up and down when you move the levers, therefore no need for a pitch adjustment. However, on the newer holders, that "plate" is fixed.

But yes, you answered your own question in your last post. Having spinners dressing the wheel pretty much ensures that each dress will be true. It's up to you if you want to do the math...

[ISTOUT 0]

Been skating on the 100/50 and I love it! Very noticeable difference between the usual edge I get and the V edge…With the V edge just as advertised I get much more bite in the ice and a far longer glide! Thanks to everyone who recommended this as it’s defiantly not a gimmick and I am sold on it!!!!

[kevintung_2k 0]

I've been working with the X-01 for the second day, and can now get even edges and smooth passes. I've noticed that the batgage does not fit on certain goalie blades, as it seems to be designed for the width of player blades.

[Ivan 1]

I've been working with the X-01 for the second day, and can now get even edges and smooth passes. I've noticed that the batgage does not fit on certain goalie blades, as it seems to be designed for the width of player blades.

You noticed it right. I stopped using the batgage since pretty much of the beginning of the learning curve. In my case if I don't touch the pitch knob, the spinner (either regular or FBV) does perfect job, so, basically, there's no need to check the edges level. Now I reserve the batgage for customers who potentially would want to check the edges level.

Get the kick out of the FBV myself, especially on a harder ice.

[kevintung_2k 0]

You noticed it right. I stopped using the batgage since pretty much of the beginning of the learning curve. In my case if I don't touch the pitch knob, the spinner (either regular or FBV) does perfect job, so, basically, there's no need to check the edges level. Now I reserve the batgage for customers who potentially would want to check the edges level.

Get the kick out of the FBV myself, especially on a harder ice.

Do you find that you need to adjust the knobs significantly with different blade widths?

[Ivan 1]

You noticed it right. I stopped using the batgage since pretty much of the beginning of the learning curve. In my case if I don't touch the pitch knob, the spinner (either regular or FBV) does perfect job, so, basically, there's no need to check the edges level. Now I reserve the batgage for customers who potentially would want to check the edges level.

Get the kick out of the FBV myself, especially on a harder ice.

Do you find that you need to adjust the knobs significantly with different blade widths?

Absolutely. But that doesn't irate me or something. To me it means better precision coming from using the tri-lie holder (I have a professional turbo portable spinner with the U-12 Tri-Lie holder)

[AfftonDad 88]

Three questions (the first two are newbie questions for those with experience sharpening)...

1. You typically end up with a darker region on the wheel after sharpening. When you go to redress the wheel, do you feel that you need to make the darker region go away COMPLETELY to have properly redressed the stone?

2. How many passes (approximately) do you think you get before you need to redress the stone?

3. Has anyone considered trimming away some of the metal on the X-01 and lengthing the slots on the top cover so that you could get longer life out of the stones by being able to move the top cover farther back?

Thanks,

Mike

[chiefs17 2]

AfftonDad, here is my opinion on your questions.

1. I believe the darker region of the wheel is from using the liquid stuff (fine shine?). That keeps the blade cooler during your final pass, so you can go slower ultimately giving you a better finish. I used to think you had to totally get rid of the black from the wheel, but I've changed my mind on that since burning through my first 2 wheels rather quickly. I think that the liquid permeates the grain of the grinding wheel and makes it turn black, but does not have to be completely removed. Just a light touch of the spinner should give you a fresh surface.

2. This one is tougher to answer. I usually do a redress only once per skate, or sometimes only once per pair of skates. It's easy to get over cautious and end up constantly redressing the wheel. I've been trying to cut down on that, as long as my finish is still good without redressing.

3. I've had the metal guard off of my machine since it was new without any adverse effects. This will give you much longer life out of the wheels. I make sure to clean the spinner mechanism with a vacuum as much as possible, especially when changing the spinners.

Another thing you can do to get more sharpenings out of a wheel is to remove the front two corners of the aluminum baseplate on the X-10 holder. When my first wheel wore down too much I couldn't get the holder close enough to the wheel for a pass without the corner of the baseplate hitting the motor housing. I just made a 45 angle cut and took about 1" off both corners.

[AfftonDad 88]

Thanks Chief 17.

Regarding the cover, I like having the cover on because I always have a shop vac hooked up to it and I think the vacuum will work better with the top on. However, I had already decided that when it gets close to the end I'll take it off to get a little more out of the wheel. I was actually talking about removing some of the metal that is on the top front face of the sharpener that comes in contact with the cover and prevents it (along with the slotted holes) from moving further back (mine actually looks like it has a couple of pieces of metal welded onto it to restrict the cover even a little more). I hadn't thought about the base of the holder being the limiting factor. I'll take a look at it when I get home.

Incidentally, I was at a shop this morning and I asked the question about the black area on the wheel and whether or not I should remove all of it. The guy refused to give me his opinion. He was practically indignant that I would have gone out and bought a sharpener on my own! He insisted that I am going to do a crappy job because I haven't had the extensive training that he has. Oh well.

Thanks again.

-Mike

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

The smaller the wheel, the more you have to dress it to get a proper shape on the wheel, thus killing the life out of your Spinners. It's cheaper to buy a new wheel than a new Spinner.

[AfftonDad 88]

Good point that I hadn't thought about. Thanks!

[jimmy 194]

Incidentally, I was at a shop this morning and I asked the question about the black area on the wheel and whether or not I should remove all of it. The guy refused to give me his opinion. He was practically indignant that I would have gone out and bought a sharpener on my own! He insisted that I am going to do a crappy job because I haven't had the extensive training that he has. Oh well.

Don't take his response in a bad way. It sounds like he's been burnt before, e.g. answering peoples questions, they they screw him by opening their little under the table side business, often at prices lower than his, and then taking many of his customers with them. So I can see why he's gun-shy of helping you. Nothing wrong with being a home sharpener but don't expect your local guy to help you get your mini-business going. I'm not saying at all that's what you are doing, but as I said, he's prob been burnt a few times.

[Chadd 916]

Incidentally, I was at a shop this morning and I asked the question about the black area on the wheel and whether or not I should remove all of it. The guy refused to give me his opinion. He was practically indignant that I would have gone out and bought a sharpener on my own! He insisted that I am going to do a crappy job because I haven't had the extensive training that he has. Oh well.

Don't take his response in a bad way. It sounds like he's been burnt before, e.g. answering peoples questions, they they screw him by opening their little under the table side business, often at prices lower than his, and then taking many of his customers with them. So I can see why he's gun-shy of helping you. Nothing wrong with being a home sharpener but don't expect your local guy to help you get your mini-business going. I'm not saying at all that's what you are doing, but as I said, he's prob been burnt a few times.

It used to drive me nuts when people would come in and tell me that they were buying a sharpener so they could save money on sharpenings and make a couple bucks on the side, then ask me for tips. Of course, the same guys would also order tape by the case online and sell it for slightly less than our price. Then they wondered why we wouldn't give them a discount in the shop.

[AfftonDad 88]

Incidentally, I was at a shop this morning and I asked the question about the black area on the wheel and whether or not I should remove all of it. The guy refused to give me his opinion. He was practically indignant that I would have gone out and bought a sharpener on my own! He insisted that I am going to do a crappy job because I haven't had the extensive training that he has. Oh well.

Don't take his response in a bad way. It sounds like he's been burnt before, e.g. answering peoples questions, they they screw him by opening their little under the table side business, often at prices lower than his, and then taking many of his customers with them. So I can see why he's gun-shy of helping you. Nothing wrong with being a home sharpener but don't expect your local guy to help you get your mini-business going. I'm not saying at all that's what you are doing, but as I said, he's prob been burnt a few times.

It used to drive me nuts when people would come in and tell me that they were buying a sharpener so they could save money on sharpenings and make a couple bucks on the side, then ask me for tips. Of course, the same guys would also order tape by the case online and sell it for slightly less than our price. Then they wondered why we wouldn't give them a discount in the shop.

I don't have any plans to start my own business. I have a 7 year old son. If I figure 1 time a month at $8 a pop for the next 11 years, it pays for itself. It's simple math. And that doesn't consider sharpening price increases, sharpening mine or the fact that with a sharperner I'll probably do his at least once a week (he skates 3-5 times a week all year round). And by the time he's ready to leave home I won't have much use for it any more so I can give it to him if it still works. Now I already have had a couple of friends ask me to do theirs and I have, but I do them for free. I'm 43 years old now and being able to sharpen my skates at home is something I've dreamed about since I was a kid.

I don't mind that the guy wouldn't tell me. A few weeks ago at another (hockey only) shop in town, when I mentioned I had an X-01 on order the guy there took me back and spent 20 minutes teaching me how to sharpen. I was amazed that he would do that.

I don't have a problem that the other guy wouldn't tell me. I understand that. It was just this particular kid's snarky attitude. He also proceded to inform a mom from MY team who I happened to be talking to in the store (the same store that I was at to hand over $150 for my kids travel jerseys) that what I had just told her about being able to bake the skates that she had just gotten for her son over the internet in an oven (there are instructions on the internet and yes I have done it before on my $400+ Vector 10's with no problem) is going to ruin his skates and that she should pay him $50 to do it (He claimed it was a different kind of heat... I'm going to have to go back and check my thermodynamics textbooks and find out about that different kind of heat that he's talking about). I spend probably $3000 per year on my kid's hockey. I'm going to look for anyway to save money that I can (and so will the rest of the parents). What that kid didn't realize (or probably more likely doesn't care about) is that I still spend A LOT of money in local hockey shops. Heck, every time a kid on my team has a birthday he gets a giftcard to the hockey shop. There are plenty of OTHER hockey shops in St. Louis, including the one where the guy taught me. Guess where I'm more likely to go next time.

I work in the software industry. I can't begin to tell you how many free computer "tips" (and outright work) I do for free each year. That happens to be what I do for a living too. People asking for free advice pretty much happens in everyones line of work. Just ask a doctor, lawyer, or mechanic.

[Law Goalie 147]

I'm fairly certain there is a difference between the way a convection oven heats and the way a regular element oven heats, much as there is a difference between propane and coals, gas and electric, a microwave and a fire pit, etc.

Heat is heat; how that heat is generated and circulated differs.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Law Goalie

[AfftonDad 88]

I'm fairly certain there is a difference between the way a convection oven heats and the way a regular element oven heats, much as there is a difference between propane and coals, gas and electric, a microwave and a fire pit, etc.

Heat is heat; how that heat is generated and circulated differs.

True.

My understanding in the difference between a convection oven and a standard oven is simply that the air is circulated in a convection oven reducing or "evening out" the thermal gradients (of particular consequence are the gradients near the item being cooked), causing it to be cooked more quickly and more evenly.

However, the procedure (found below) has you set the oven to the relatively low heat of 180°F and TURN IT OFF before you put the skates in. So how the oven got to 180°F doesn't really matter at that point And it will begin to drop in temperature as soon as you turn it off.

http://www.hockeyx.com/hockey/dept.asp?dept_id=118&

Incidentally, a car interior can reach 180°F. My skates frequently get left in my car.

http://www.shell.us/home/content/usa/about...n_01042005.html

The shop oven may be a convection oven, I don't know, which would perhaps heat the skate more quickly and more evenly. If I had both ovens I would definately use the one made for skates. But if it is going to cost me $50 I'll stick with the regular oven. I had a professional at a hockey shop pop one of my eyelets out of a pair of skates once. I have yet to do that at home. That of course has nothing to do with the oven.

Of course, thats just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Jordan 13]

I have used my home oven several times when a second bake was neeeded without any problem....that procedure will work fine. I also put a towel on the baking sheet for the skates to rest on, so that there aren't hot spots where the skate could touch the metal.

Convection ovens generate their heat from an element just the same as a regular oven.

They just use a fan to move the air around the cavity in order to get a more even heat (ie top rack bakes cookies at the same rate as the lower rack). So long as the oven has reached temperature, and is turned OFF prior to baking the skates you shouldn't run into trouble.