Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[kevrocks 1]

kevrocks, technically I suppose the FBV should last as long as an ROH sharpening, but it's been my experience that it does not. I also think it is a more fragile edge, so you are more susceptible to getting nicks and flat spots in the edge. I also think that once the edge is dull, it's a big drop off in sharpness. On an ROH edge you can get by with a less than perfect edge and not notice it as much.

I think this is also dependent on all of the variables associated with skate blade sharpness. Things like which ROH vs which FBV, player weight/style, ice conditions, etc.

Thanks. The thing about a more fragile edge was what I heard from a friend also. If that's true, I'm not sure if it's worth it to switch to FBV. I'll likely try it out for a couple of times first though.

[Chadd 916]

I prefer having mine done more frequently, but the edge is no more "fragile" than a ROH sharpening. A bad ding or piss poor sharpening is going to screw up your edges no matter how you sharpen your skates. Try it and decide for yourself, just like anything else opinions will vary from one person to the next and some people will exaggerate the positives and/or negatives.

[jimmy 194]

One of my customers, a college professor, get's 20hrs between sharpenings. He's not playing hockey, just skating for exercise. In hockey, how long edges last has so many factors so it's almost impossible to nail it down, but the majority of my customers tell me it lasts longer than hollows. They predict elections with a sampling of 800 people, so I will have to say based on feedback I've gotten from about 5000 skaters, I would be confident in saying for the majority it last longer. Results may vary. :-)

[Tailboard Jockey 25]

Just from my own personal experience, my FBV 100/50 edges definitely last longer than the 9/16" ROH I used to get.

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

Longer edges wear down faster/have the ability to get bruised easier.

I used to sharpen my skates every time I skated with ROH - I have my own machine and I sharpen less frequently now.

[BMcDonald19 0]

I have been skating FBV for about a year now. I start on 100-50. My buddy and I both found it was good for about 3-4 skates then it was flat and gone. After speaking with Sak, he suggested 100-75. Thats what I went with. I love it. It last longer, feels like the perfect amount of bite and still glides well like 100-50 did. Thanks SAK for the info, and I would suggest to anyone who has not tried FBV to give it a shot. It is going to be the future of sharpening.

Edited August 12, 2010 by BMcDonald19

[SAK 2]

Hey guys we have been investigating this as well. My sugestion is make sure you are actually getting the Flat Bottom V. As you know there is an attempt to recreate this product which does not create the same results especially in longevity of an edge. Basically if the person is on the list of people who do the Flat bottom v you should be good to go. If they are not on the list and saying they are, my guess is they are doing a knock off which will not give you the advantage of the technology. If I can figure out how to put the link on this it should make it easier if it does not someone with more knowledge of how to do this please help me out, here goes nothing. Remember If you have questions we would love to answer them.who does it

Edited August 13, 2010 by SAK

[flyers10 57]

SAK - I heard Behind the Mask in AZ will offer it soon in their new Scottsdale store. Is this accurate?

[SAK 2]

SAK - I heard Behind the Mask in AZ will offer it soon in their new Scottsdale store. Is this accurate?

Not sure. I dont want to create a mess in the industry but there is a reason that we came out with a v and not a ROH with a flat on it, longevity of the blade was a factor along with more variables for players. As a player and sharpener, do what feels the best for your game, its always fun to have a new toy and if FBV can be that new thing that you like in a game that you love than its awesome. I know Blackstone is having a great time bringing it out to the industry as it has effected the game for pro's, kids, beerleagures.........and has got people talking about one of the most important parts of the game. (you can have the best of hands but if you have dull skates you can't skate to your compititor's net to use them) I would definatly try it and see if you can get dialed in, all the studies and all the feedback say there is a significant increase in performance like anything you need a good sharpener who can help you determine what your cut is. I deal with the pro's and there is a significant movement towards it. just saying.......

Edited August 13, 2010 by SAK

[chiefs17 2]

I also should have mentioned in my post that I'm using FBV and will not go back to ROH. So definitely give it a try and see what your results are.

kevrocks, technically I suppose the FBV should last as long as an ROH sharpening, but it's been my experience that it does not. I also think it is a more fragile edge, so you are more susceptible to getting nicks and flat spots in the edge. I also think that once the edge is dull, it's a big drop off in sharpness. On an ROH edge you can get by with a less than perfect edge and not notice it as much.

I think this is also dependent on all of the variables associated with skate blade sharpness. Things like which ROH vs which FBV, player weight/style, ice conditions, etc.

[zebra_steve 11]

Well, I finally had a chance to try the FBV out... The finish that the sharpener put on the blade was nowhere near as smooth as I can put on them with my own ROH machine. Rouch with chatter marks, but it was not unacceptable for a test drive. When I got home the first thing I checked was "levelness" of the edges..... they were not level... (The guy stayed a little late just to put the grind on my skates as a favor. I was on my way out of town - heading home halfway across the state - and this was the only window I had to get them done so he did rush it a little bit..... not gonna hold it against him. I noted what was off and just expected more\less bite corresponding to the high\low edge).

Skating on them, the rougher finish 100\75 glide felt similar to my own smooth fresh 3/8 ROH... IMHO a smoother FBV would have translated to same or slightly better glide feel. The bite was good felt "firmer" or "more precise" than the ROH.... like a deeper ROH W\O the "sticky" feel of the deeper hollow ... Yeah the uneven edges were noticeable but easy enough to deal with knowing how they were off. I would love to be able to experiment more with the FBV, but for me that would require access to an FBV sharpener and the ability to play with different profile possibilities until I find the one I like.

So, what do I do? For now, I'm gonna stay with ROH for economic and personal reasons. First, I have sharpened skates since 1976 and I have owned my own machine since 1990. I cannot afford to replace it, or justify the cost of a stand alone dressing tool to retrofit FBV to my sharpener. Second, there are a select handful of folks that I trust to grind my blades. Not saying great sharpeners aren't out there, but I've seen too many hack jobs. Frankly, I would be too critical of their results if I feel that I can do better.... Third, the cost of paying for a grind and the convenience of going into the basement at 1:00am to fix a blown edge when I have to be on the ice at 9:00am the next day.

IMHO, the overall feel and performance is slightly better than ROH. For me, durability is a question different from most of you.... That question is a non-issue if I get set up to sharpen with FBV at home... I have no qualms about grinding them one or twice a week if needed - I did it when I played regularly. Officiating, it's more like once every other week or so.

[rachael7 1]

If I were faced with that same decision, I would take my own ROH sharpening over someone else doing FBV any day. There is just no substitute for doing a perfect job yourself. The confidence and consistency would way outweigh any performance difference, imho. That having been said, my machine does both and I do notice a considerable speed difference with a nicely done FBV and I find that I can use an FBV which is equivalent to a much shallower ROH than I actually used. I skated on 1/2" ROH and now use 90/75 FBV which is supposedly more like 5/8" or 3/4", so the total improvement in glide and decrease in energy expenditure is significant for me.

[ice365 0]

I have never tried ther FBV but I get it done on my sons skates, 90/75.

He is nine years old and weighs in at about a whopping 68lbs.

Should he be on something different then the 90/75?

Thanks,

[zebra_steve 11]

That perceived potential benefit is what has my wheels turning.... good thing I'm really low on capital or it would cost me money... I have a couple skate holders, wonder if I can get the x-01 cheaper w\o a holder?

[Chadd 916]

I have never tried ther FBV but I get it done on my sons skates, 90/75.

He is nine years old and weighs in at about a whopping 68lbs.

Should he be on something different then the 90/75?

Thanks,

If he has complaints, try the hollow that may help resolve the complaint. There is no "best", other than what makes you feel the most comfortable.

[ice365 0]

If he has complaints, try the hollow that may help resolve the complaint. There is no "best", other than what makes you feel the most comfortable.

No complaints, just thought their might be diferent setting for that size of kid.

Thanks,

[mnpucker 33]

My son is 5' 83 pounds just turned 10. I have learned that they prefer 100-50 in the summer and 90-75 in the winter. 90-75 had a bit too much bite on soft summer ice so we went to 100-50. My other son is 5'3" 114 and 12 he has the very same preference.

Hope that helps. As stated though you need to try a couple before settling.

I think the LHS's should offer some sort of a "try till in fits" card. I imagine a punch card that lists the various FBV numbers, the lhs could stamp each as the player uses it. I would assume a shop would need to offer 3 sharpenings at some sort of reduced cost to allow for players to settle into the best fit. Once you try the cuts you will know what you need to do as ice conditions change.....just a thought.

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

I think the LHS's should offer some sort of a "try till in fits" card. I imagine a punch card that lists the various FBV numbers, the lhs could stamp each as the player uses it. I would assume a shop would need to offer 3 sharpenings at some sort of reduced cost to allow for players to settle into the best fit. Once you try the cuts you will know what you need to do as ice conditions change.....just a thought.

Remember that a lot of LHSs offer a "house cut" and will charge you if you want something different as you're taking off more from the wheel.

Best thing to do is for the skater to ask to get something, write it down then go from there.

That perceived potential benefit is what has my wheels turning.... good thing I'm really low on capital or it would cost me money... I have a couple skate holders, wonder if I can get the x-01 cheaper w\o a holder?

The wheel height is low on an X01/X02. A standard holder won't work on them.

[Chadd 916]

I think the LHS's should offer some sort of a "try till in fits" card. I imagine a punch card that lists the various FBV numbers, the lhs could stamp each as the player uses it. I would assume a shop would need to offer 3 sharpenings at some sort of reduced cost to allow for players to settle into the best fit. Once you try the cuts you will know what you need to do as ice conditions change.....just a thought.

Why should the shop take a hit on your experimentation? Do you get to use a bunch of different sticks until you find the right curve or flex?

[mnpucker 33]

Why should the shop take a hit on your experimentation? Do you get to use a bunch of different sticks until you find the right curve or flex?

Considering shops charge more for FBV, sometimes a lot more, I intended to suggest an idea that might help LHS' get more people to try it so you can generate MORE revenue not take a "hit". If a shop wants to go with FBV I would think you would want to find a way to get customers to like the edge considering the investment in the equipment. Especially considering how PRO Blackstone this site is. I have talked to people that tried it one time and went back to ROH because they were not totally comfortable with their first choice....usually 90-75 if I am not mistaken. FBV is a unique and new (to Majority of the public) product, it carries some level of uncertainty with its effectiveness. My suggestion was for what 3 sharpenings? give them a 2 for the price of three card. If not whatever I could care less I got my own sharpener. Maybe you just want to go with the "house" job, that is probably the reason so many of us are buying sharpeners....we are being forced to get whatever we are given.

[zebra_steve 11]

Lots of places have specials or sharpening cards that give you 10 cuts for the price of 9... pay for it up front and just present the card for stamp\punches... It shows the customer that you are not out to gouge them for their last penny and you still have one time grind fee for the passing customer. I see it as good customer relations.... And there are shop owners that are very professional and knowledgeable, but have shown through their actions that they intend to squeeze every last drop of blood from that stone.... they "nickle and dime" customers at every turn. I get the feeling that they would love to find a way to charge you to have a conversation because they have the knowledge and you don't. They get no business from me... they come across as just plain greedy and money hungry....

I look at things a bit differently than those places that have a "house cut" and charge extra if they have to dress the wheel. A wheel is what, $20-$25 and a dressing diamond for an ROH machine is another $20-$25.. a spinner is ~$90. So $50-$110 for the consumables... charging $10 per cut and you have the consumable paid for in 5 to 10 cuts and you get a whole lot more than 10 cuts out of a wheel (note I am not amortizing the cost of the unit, just the consumables as this is the excuse given to charge more). Sorry, dressing the wheel is integral to getting a good sharpening... I would RUN away from any place that balks at or wants to charge extra for dressing the wheel... It needs to be done anyway.... If you have 2 heads, you can set one up for 1"- 5/8" ROH and the other for 1/2" and deeper.... This will minimize wheel loss going from say 7/8" to 3/8" ROH dressing. I have seen a bunch of places that only allow one or two people to dress the wheel (actually have the diamond and the quill under lock and key) but have a whole barrel of semi-trained ...uhmmmm.... employees that run skates across the wheels. I have even seen a sign that said, "When you pay for a sharpening, we guarantee nothing more than you will have two edges. The edges may or may not be even." YES, There is a very big reason that no one else touches my blades unless it's an emergency.

JR,

Do you happen to know what the difference in height is? I just really don't care for how that consumer unit is put together..... I like the U-02 or maybe the U-12 better...

Edited August 18, 2010 by zebra_steve

[Chadd 916]

Lots of places have specials or sharpening cards that give you 10 cuts for the price of 9... pay for it up front and just present the card for stamp\punches... It shows the customer that you are not out to gouge them for their last penny and you still have one time grind fee for the passing customer. I see it as good customer relations.... And there are shop owners that are very professional and knowledgeable, but have shown through their actions that they intend to squeeze every last drop of blood from that stone.... they "nickle and dime" customers at every turn. I get the feeling that they would love to find a way to charge you to have a conversation because they have the knowledge and you don't. They get no business from me... they come across as just plain greedy and money hungry....

I look at things a bit differently than those places that have a "house cut" and charge extra if they have to dress the wheel. A wheel is what, $20-$25 and a dressing diamond for an ROH machine is another $20-$25.. a spinner is ~$90. So $50-$110 for the consumables... charging $10 per cut and you have the consumable paid for in 5 to 10 cuts and you get a whole lot more than 10 cuts out of a wheel (note I am not amortizing the cost of the unit, just the consumables as this is the excuse given to charge more). Sorry, dressing the wheel is integral to getting a good sharpening... I would RUN away from any place that balks at or wants to charge extra for dressing the wheel... It needs to be done anyway.... If you have 2 heads, you can set one up for 1"- 5/8" ROH and the other for 1/2" and deeper.... This will minimize wheel loss going from say 7/8" to 3/8" ROH dressing. I have seen a bunch of places that only allow one or two people to dress the wheel (actually have the diamond and the quill under lock and key) but have a whole barrel of semi-trained ...uhmmmm.... employees that run skates across the wheels. I have even seen a sign that said, "When you pay for a sharpening, we guarantee nothing more than you will have two edges. The edges may or may not be even." YES, There is a very big reason that no one else touches my blades unless it's an emergency.

JR,

Do you happen to know what the difference in height is? I just really don't care for how that consumer unit is put together..... I like the U-02 or maybe the U-12 better...

If you note, my objection was to giving a discount simply so someone could experiment. It had nothing to do with squeezing every last drop of blood and was simply just not giving away a service for free. I fixed issues caused by my partner or the one guy that I didn't train for free a couple times, that's something every shop should do. As for the nickle and diming, shops have to deal with customers that use their shop as a fitting room for online purchases, it's very easy to see how some can develop an adversarial relationship with some people.

Consumables may only be $100, but the machines aren't cheap. Nor are the rest of the costs that go into running a shop. That said, I never charged extra for anything other than new skates purchased somewhere else or severely abused slates that took a long time to fix. Like the Amish guy that used a bench grinder to make a point on the bottom of the skate.

[AfftonDad 88]

I have never tried ther FBV but I get it done on my sons skates, 90/75.

He is nine years old and weighs in at about a whopping 68lbs.

Should he be on something different then the 90/75?

Thanks,

The following is JUST MY OPINION...

I sharpen several 8-9 year old kids skates on my X-01, including my son's. I talked to someone at Blackstone (or maybe it was No-Icing Sports, I can't remember) around a year ago and they said that in their opinion any kid under around 100lbs ought to probably be in 100/75. Their reasoning was because of the weight factor and because in the long run they would be better off getting used to having more edge early on anyway. The did say however, that if the kid is one that just can't stand "bite" then they would drop them down if they didn't like it. About 70% of the 10 or 15, squirts that I do use 100/75, with the rest using 100/50. My 8 year old, 82lb son has used 90/75, 100/50 and 100/75. He has used 100/75 for most of the last year. As an experiment, I recently switched him to 100/50 for around a month and he asked to go back to 100/75. Ditto for one of his teammates. I have used 90/75 and 100/50 myself and I have settled on 100/50 (and I weigh WAY more than an 8 year old).

Edited August 18, 2010 by AfftonDad

[zebra_steve 11]

Chadd,

My comment was not a shot at you or your comment and I understood what you were saying..... This could easily be a thread all to itself, - and probably has at some point. I have worked the retail side - albeit before the boom of internet sales - and do understand the issues that shop owners have these days. It's really hard to match internet prices so you have to make the folks want to do business with you. It may come down to the "services" that you offer and how a customer is treated when they are in your shop. IMHO There is a difference between trying to protect your business and being too focused on the all-mighty dollar. I have walked into a shop searching for information and assistance - with the understanding up front that I intended to do business with them if they still offered the services I was looking for. The owner told me that he no longer did that and since he couldn't profit from it he would not help me out with any information. That really turned me off and I will never set foot in that shop again. Unfortunately, I have run across many folks that will not help someone unless they can profit from it.... not quite the same as where I believe you are coming from. And yes, it has to be frustrating to have people constantly walking through looking at your inventory and say, "we're just looking".... Yeah, they want to decide between a couple different model gloves so they can go buy them from some internet store.... As for how a shop could go about fitting\trying on skates without being a fitting service for internet shops, I have a few ideas but don't want to hijack this thread any more than we have.

And just to get back on topic a bit....I too have spent hours repairing some other rink\shops butchered work. As for amortizing the cost of the machine too, if you buy a $20,000 3 head unit and charge $10 per sharpening and average 3 sharpenings a day you will be very close to paying the unit off - including the consumables used - over a two year period - three or so might be more realistic. Where MnPucker might have been going was to try to induce a customer to try out an FBV grind from your brand new machine - and "since it is a bit different from ROH, I'll give you a sharpening at three different profiles for the cost of two or two and a half sharpenings" to 1)help to convince you to use this new technology 2)to show you that we know what we are doing in this shop and 3)to give you a reason to come back here to continue paying me to put the FBV on your skates and help to pay off my investment in this new technology...... Or, MnPucker meant that "it costs me the price of several sharpenings to figure out what I like and that's stopping me from trying it.....you should help defray my cost". If that's the case then I wholeheartedly agree with you... whether FBV or ROH, at some point you are experimenting to find your feel.... Same deal, just two different ways to look at it....

Edited August 18, 2010 by zebra_steve

[mnpucker 33]

And just to get back on topic a bit....I too have spent hours repairing some other rink\shops butchered work. As for amortizing the cost of the machine too, if you buy a $20,000 3 head unit and charge $10 per sharpening and average 3 sharpenings a day you will be very close to paying the unit off - including the consumables used - over a two year period - three or so might be more realistic. Where MnPucker might have been going was to try to induce a customer to try out an FBV grind from your brand new machine - and "since it is a bit different from ROH, I'll give you a sharpening at three different profiles for the cost of two or two and a half sharpenings" to 1)help to convince you to use this new technology 2)to show you that we know what we are doing in this shop and 3)to give you a reason to come back here to continue paying me to put the FBV on your skates and help to pay off my investment in this new technology...... Or, MnPucker meant that "it costs me the price of several sharpenings to figure out what I like and that's stopping me from trying it.....you should help defray my cost". If that's the case then I wholeheartedly agree with you... whether FBV or ROH, at some point you are experimenting to find your feel.... Same deal, just two different ways to look at it....

Steve/Chadd

I typed out a long response earlier today and then said screw it and deleted it. Steve summed up the direction I was going. Service, service, service, sell me on your shop, convince me you care to find what is best for me. An offer such as previously mentioned combined with a sincere effort to find that right FBV would go a long way toward keeping me as a customer. I go to the shop that I get the best service from. If a shop invests in the FBV system I would assume they would want to do everything possible to get people to use it.

I definitely did not intend to suggest giving it away for nothing.