Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[jimmy 194]

The whole testing each spinner each morning, taking a mold of the resulting blade and examining it under a microscope thing is kinda odd too. Once or twice, why not I suppose, if you're dedicated. But every morning? Seriously? We're talking hockey skates here, not artificial heart valves.

The reason I do it is because I ship many runners all over the world and I can't be guessing if the sharpening is done correctly. Customers pay a lot for shipping and are relying on perfect sharpening when they receive their blades. Unlike a hollow sharpening, where the sharpener has a simple measuring tool to inspect the finished product, there is no such thing for the FBV. By ensuring in advance that the spinners are good and the holder/machine are aligned and operating properly, inspecting with the test runners each morning (and sometimes during the day if I think a spinner may be at the end of it's life) well this really reduces the chance that an FBV will come out bad. If a local customer gets a bad FVB, he can just come back and get it redone. With mail order it's a whole different issue.

[zebra_steve 11]

The reason I do it is because I ship many runners all over the world and I can't be guessing if the sharpening is done correctly. Customers pay a lot for shipping and are relying on perfect sharpening when they receive their blades. Unlike a hollow sharpening, where the sharpener has a simple measuring tool to inspect the finished product, there is no such thing for the FBV. By ensuring in advance that the spinners are good and the holder/machine are aligned and operating properly, inspecting with the test runners each morning (and sometimes during the day if I think a spinner may be at the end of it's life) well this really reduces the chance that an FBV will come out bad. If a local customer gets a bad FVB, he can just come back and get it redone. With mail order it's a whole different issue.

Thanks Jimmy.... That answers a lot of questions in my mind.... Didn't realize that you were having runners shipped in for sharpening.... The volume and verification procedure makes much more sense now.

Edited January 13, 2011 by zebra_steve

[forbs02 20]

All this math/science/experience go into the sharpening... and then the customer puts on the skate and promptly steps on an exposed drain on the floor.

[TBLfan 25]

[jimmy 194]

All this math/science/experience go into the sharpening... and then the customer puts on the skate and promptly steps on an exposed drain on the floor.

I have a name for that.... "Another $6.00" :-) Believe it or not, a lot of sharpenings are needed just because of that reason. Just look around your rink/bench next time you are at the rink, there are skate marks everywhere, on every stanchion, on every wall, under benches, on every screw that holds the thresholds down, literally everywhere.

[zebra_steve 11]

Don't forget about the holes in the rubber matting in front of every door exposing the cement! If the drain is brass or bronze you might get away with it cuz your blade should be harder.... But still better off being careful.

[vaporboy12 0]

Don't forget about the holes in the rubber matting in front of every door exposing the cement! If the drain is brass or bronze you might get away with it cuz your blade should be harder.... But still better off being careful.

I have a question for you all? how many dressing are you getting out of one spinner or how often do they need to be changed out for a new one

[elpresidente99 1]

Hello!!

I'm on the way to buy a XO2 or XO1.

1. Should i buy the X01 or the X02, i know the difference is the rpm but what is the main effect of a higher speed??

2. Which spinners should i buy to cover a good range. Flat and ROH??

3. Do i have to put the machine out of the transport box for sharpening??

Thanks for all

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

Depends on how much you are sharpening

Up to you really. I have 1/2 but never have used it

No, you can leave it in the box.

[elpresidente99 1]

Yeah it's for our team i think the highest amount wil be 10-15 pairs a week. Which would you choose.

What's the common fbv spinners and ROH spinners.

THanks

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

02.

I don't think the rarer options are available in the minispinners.

prob get 100/50-75, 90/75. Poll your teammates on ROH

[rachael7 1]

They do actually have some of the tweener FBV profiles for the X machines - they just aren't listed on the site. For example, I was able to obtain get a 95/75 that wasn't listed on the site. Shoot them an email or give them a call and Gerard or anyone there can take care of you.

[mckjim 2]

Yeah it's for our team i think the highest amount wil be 10-15 pairs a week. Which would you choose.

What's the common fbv spinners and ROH spinners.

THanks

I like the 100/50 for my X02 machine. I have been using it for over two years to sharpen skates for a High School Varsity and 2 J.V. Teams. I also use it for 2 Bantam teams. It is a great machine for team skate sharpening. I picked up a little luggage dolly and bungee strap it and a Craftsman portable table to take to the rinks for out of town games. It is light enough to move around, but the luggage dolly makes it a snap to move in and out of the rinks. I also suggest an extension cord be brought with you. You never know from one rink to another where the power will be.

[mojo122 530]

The reason I do it is because I ship many runners all over the world and I can't be guessing if the sharpening is done correctly. Customers pay a lot for shipping and are relying on perfect sharpening when they receive their blades. With mail order it's a whole different issue.

What, no love for us customers that drive a distance?

[Powerfibers 8]

02.

I don't think the rarer options are available in the minispinners.

prob get 100/50-75, 90/75. Poll your teammates on ROH

I have 100/50 (my favorite for wide variety of conditions), 100/75 (smaller/lighter kids like my 9 year old like this), 90/75 (only used a few times for softer ice), and 1/2 (which I use for friends who have been skating on it a while or for the emergency sharpening on a kid. It won't be too different from they had before).

Understand that I do this for free and don't encourage anyone to bring me skates! I have the bigger unit which I decided upon because I had the cash and figured better to go big. It was the best money I have ever spent on hockey gear. Love it.

[Polarlight 0]

[osted 09 January 2011 - 12:57 AM

Polarlight, on 21 October 2009 - 06:04 PM, said:

Blademaster continues to disappoint:

1) Form dressing is as old as dirt, and Blademaster should have delivered this disruptive technology before Blackstone.

2) Blademaster's "The truth sheet Flat Bottom" is defensive, petty, and unprofessional. They could have demonstrated the advantages of their method but instead wrote a poorly constructed mess that makes one question their credibility. Talking about the potential for "no edge" on FBV, and then admitting the true width of a 90/75 flat bottom is actually 70 thousandths doesn't wash. Moreover, does anyone believe Blademaster used a "representative" Blackstone diamond roll in the numbers they published? While Blademaster may have a better method, I don't trust Blademaster now.

3) Blademaster's BFD isn't available on portables, and for tabletops, it's a Rube Goldberg device if I ever saw one (check out the YouTube video for a good laugh).

While I'm a Blademaster portable owner and Maximum Edge (Bob Allen) fan, Blademaster should be a Harvard Business Review case describing how not to address disruptive technology and the response to a competitor's actions.

I'll enjoy using my Blackstone FBV convertible spinner on my Blademaster portable.

Actually there was some credibility to their document, although I can't locate it anymore, they must have pulled it. When the BS first arrived I ordered up a small handful of spinners and after reading the BM sheet, I thought what the hell and since I had an in at a military technical unit, I had the spinners measured up with their laser equipment. . . . the BM document was pretty well on. . . the BS spinners were no where near their aclaimed tolerances. . . let's face it, they claim in one document to have 100/50 & 100/75 etc. . the 100 being thousands of an inch wide and the 50 or 75 being in 10 millions (their website)of an inch deep, their tech sheet claims the 75 or 50 is in one hundred thousands.

Give me a break! Unless you did as I did and have them measured up with laser technology, you will not know. I'm afraid your standard micrometer isnt going to cut it here! According to the military the spinners were plus/minus 25% Thats right TWENTY-FIVE % !! {largest tollerances found were in the depth}

I have the spinners and use them when clients are eager for an FBV, but with the blade thickness differences, it is a real pain in the a$$ to set up each different pair to ensure centering on a spinner with a +/- 25% tolerance. I offer it to clients only if they insist. . .and caution that it is not near as accurate as acclaimed.

These are the facts. I know it is the popular thing these days. People can be readily sold on almost anything. . . . I mean look at Bauer selling people the crap metal in their Lightspeed Pro holders...... some of those are like grinding plexiglass !

This post has been edited by Blade-Tek: 09 January 2011 - 01:10 PM

Thank you for the analysis Blade-Tek. I purchased a Blademaster MPFD when they first became available, and agree the roll design appears superior to the Blackstone Mag-50. The size and construction of the roll suggest they are more consistent- and have been told by others (like you) that this is true. I only sharpen for a few skaters (all on Step) and they all prefer the Blackstone because of the options. Blademaster and their supporters will tell you that form dressing has been done many times before (over many decades), and the edge is not as good (roll "crushes" grinding media rather than cutting it). Thus, Blademaster apparently believes this "fad" will pass (as demonstrated by lack of roll options). I now believe form dressing can be preferable to the traditional method for some skaters provided the roll is "fresh", and the sharpener is skilled and willing to take more time than is common at commercial sharpeners.

Thanks again for your input.

[Engineer44 0]

[osted 09 January 2011 - 12:57 AM

Polarlight, on 21 October 2009 - 06:04 PM, said:

Blademaster continues to disappoint:

1) Form dressing is as old as dirt, and Blademaster should have delivered this disruptive technology before Blackstone.

2) Blademaster's "The truth sheet Flat Bottom" is defensive, petty, and unprofessional. They could have demonstrated the advantages of their method but instead wrote a poorly constructed mess that makes one question their credibility. Talking about the potential for "no edge" on FBV, and then admitting the true width of a 90/75 flat bottom is actually 70 thousandths doesn't wash. Moreover, does anyone believe Blademaster used a "representative" Blackstone diamond roll in the numbers they published? While Blademaster may have a better method, I don't trust Blademaster now.

3) Blademaster's BFD isn't available on portables, and for tabletops, it's a Rube Goldberg device if I ever saw one (check out the YouTube video for a good laugh).

While I'm a Blademaster portable owner and Maximum Edge (Bob Allen) fan, Blademaster should be a Harvard Business Review case describing how not to address disruptive technology and the response to a competitor's actions.

I'll enjoy using my Blackstone FBV convertible spinner on my Blademaster portable.

Actually there was some credibility to their document, although I can't locate it anymore, they must have pulled it. When the BS first arrived I ordered up a small handful of spinners and after reading the BM sheet, I thought what the hell and since I had an in at a military technical unit, I had the spinners measured up with their laser equipment. . . . the BM document was pretty well on. . . the BS spinners were no where near their aclaimed tolerances. . . let's face it, they claim in one document to have 100/50 & 100/75 etc. . the 100 being thousands of an inch wide and the 50 or 75 being in 10 millions (their website)of an inch deep, their tech sheet claims the 75 or 50 is in one hundred thousands.

Give me a break! Unless you did as I did and have them measured up with laser technology, you will not know. I'm afraid your standard micrometer isnt going to cut it here! According to the military the spinners were plus/minus 25% Thats right TWENTY-FIVE % !! {largest tollerances found were in the depth}

I have the spinners and use them when clients are eager for an FBV, but with the blade thickness differences, it is a real pain in the a$$ to set up each different pair to ensure centering on a spinner with a +/- 25% tolerance. I offer it to clients only if they insist. . .and caution that it is not near as accurate as acclaimed.

These are the facts. I know it is the popular thing these days. People can be readily sold on almost anything. . . . I mean look at Bauer selling people the crap metal in their Lightspeed Pro holders...... some of those are like grinding plexiglass !

This post has been edited by Blade-Tek: 09 January 2011 - 01:10 PM

Thank you for the analysis Blade-Tek. I purchased a Blademaster MPFD when they first became available, and agree the roll design appears superior to the Blackstone Mag-50. The size and construction of the roll suggest they are more consistent- and have been told by others (like you) that this is true. I only sharpen for a few skaters (all on Step) and they all prefer the Blackstone because of the options. Blademaster and their supporters will tell you that form dressing has been done many times before (over many decades), and the edge is not as good (roll "crushes" grinding media rather than cutting it). Thus, Blademaster apparently believes this "fad" will pass (as demonstrated by lack of roll options). I now believe form dressing can be preferable to the traditional method for some skaters provided the roll is "fresh", and the sharpener is skilled and willing to take more time than is common at commercial sharpeners.

Thanks again for your input.

It is very interesting that all of the comments about measuring spinners relate to the Black Stone product. Why isn't anyone measuring the Blade Master product? Oh yes I forgot, they don't publish any dimensions for their shapes! What a great way to eliminate the need for any comparison or measurement. In fact what are the dimensions of their shapes, and how does anyone know that they repeat from spinner to spinner? Just food for thought.

[Chadd 916]

It's amazing how many negative comments have been posted since word got out that Blackstone will be getting their patents approved. I can't wait to see the spin that comes when the cease and desist letters start hitting the mail.

[mug25 2]

I've been skating on 100/75 FBV for the past two months or so. I feel like it might be too much bite for me. I play at 3 different rinks a week — one rink has super soft ice. Another is pretty hard (it's the sheet that the Florida Panthers practice on) and the other rink is honestly an "in-between". I feel that on the softer sheet of ice, I'm skating through mud. Lots of drag and my strides really dont feel "complete". My technique on the harder sheets of ice feels much better. I hope that makes sense. Maybe it's my actual technique? Or is 100/75 too much bite? Will dropping down a hollow help this issue or is it just my technique?

BTW, I'm skating on RBK 9k's and I weigh 314lbs, 6'1". (Yeah I'm a fatso but working on it)

Edited January 26, 2011 by mug25

[skyscrape 5]

I've been skating on 100/75 FBV for the past two months or so. I feel like it might be too much bite for me. I play at 3 different rinks a week — one rink has super soft ice. Another is pretty hard (it's the sheet that the Florida Panthers practice on) and the other rink is honestly an "in-between". I feel that on the softer sheet of ice, I'm skating through mud. Lots of drag and my strides really dont feel "complete". My technique on the harder sheets of ice feels much better. I hope that makes sense. Maybe it's my actual technique? Or is 100/75 too much bite? Will dropping down a hollow help this issue or is it just my technique?

BTW, I'm skating on RBK 9k's and I weigh 314lbs, 6'1". (Yeah I'm a fatso but working on it)

I am about the same weight as you and I liked the 90/75. 90/50 was a lot of glide but felt like i needed to re-sharpen too often.

[goblue9280 33]

What about a traditional roh recommendation? I'm also in the 3 bills club... just got back into skating after an 8 year absence. Had a 5/8" cut done, but wondering if I should go more shallow?

[skyscrape 5]

I use 5/8 if the ice is fairly soft. Mens league and drop in. If I were to play full contact competitive I would go with 9/16ths or 1/2 inch. The grip in the corners is needed, but for drop in or mens league where you don;t want to wear out and need all the speed I can get I go 5/8ths.

[Chadd 916]

What about a traditional roh recommendation? I'm also in the 3 bills club... just got back into skating after an 8 year absence. Had a 5/8" cut done, but wondering if I should go more shallow?

I'm 250ish and would be on a 3/4 ROH if I wasn't skating on the FBV and in the summer I would go up to 1" on soft ice. Now I usually stick to 90/75

[lohnman 0]

I have most of my players skating on 95/75, its a close equivalent to the 100/50. Most feel 100/75 it too much bite and 90/75 is not enough. The 95/75 has been a the answer for me.

[Powerfibers 8]

Good advice above. My son is 70 lbs. and 100/75 is even a bit "edgy" for him. I would try 100/50 and then try 90/75. You should see better glides to stops and plenty of edge.