Charging for skate sizing

[sarmalidu 1]

Personally I think that this kind of policy would turn me off and I would go elsewhere. I recently had a situation where I just wanted to try out all the new skates from various brands since the time will be coming soon where I need to move away from my Mission skates (and won't be able to buy new ones). I went in and tried on about 5-6 pairs with limited success. Part of the problem is they were out of my size in many skates as I have pretty "average" sized feet (10-10.5 regular shoes but I wear my skates as small as possible - usually size 8.5-9 depending on brand).

So, I ended up walking out with nothing in terms of skates because the skates didn't really fit me just right. However, because I had such good service and it was convenient, I elected to buy a One95 shaft that I would have ordered online otherwise.

Additionally, once more skates / models are available after the refresh I will be back and will most likely purchase my skates from that store due to their service and competitive pricing. I will probably grab a few high-margin accessories as well.

I think it's a bit of a slippery slope. Each customer you lose that doesn't like your new policy is also going to cost you hundreds in revenue. A customer that tries skates and doesn't bite because they went to buy online costs just some time and effort. That sucks, but I would guess that time and effort will end up being less than the hundreds of dollars people spend on skates and related hockey gear.

[GH_ID 0]

The other day I went in to try on some skates, I had the one 75 in mind, but they only had the one95 or one55. I still tried them to get the idea of a similar fit, but did not end up buying them because my mind was set on the one75. he couldn't order what I wanted so, hey I went to have a look online...

I always try to take as less time as I can from the seller if I know I'm not going to end up buying them... I just need him to get the skates for me and that's all anyways, then if I buy them I'll need him for heating, sharpening...

[DarkStar50 679]

MSH needs a place for "Dealers only" because as Dale Jarrett said, "Until you sit in my seat, you have no idea what is going on."

[chippa13 1844]

The other day I went in to try on some skates, I had the one 75 in mind, but they only had the one95 or one55. I still tried them to get the idea of a similar fit, but did not end up buying them because my mind was set on the one75. he couldn't order what I wanted so, hey I went to have a look online...

I always try to take as less time as I can from the seller if I know I'm not going to end up buying them... I just need him to get the skates for me and that's all anyways, then if I buy them I'll need him for heating, sharpening...

How can your mind be set on a skate you haven't even tried on?

[CTHockey 2]

Once again some are starting to take this post out of text. I've stated that we have a large following of customers that come back year after year, we also gain new customers from the great customer service and support we offer. I hardly ever refuse service and always try and make my customers happy when they walk out the door.

Without turning this a thousand directions like some of you are, look at it in its simplest form. If you come to my store to buy a pair of skates you will get get service, support, and help. If you come to just browse or get sized, i might offer a few pointers or thoughts but im not gonna invest the time or effort. I might feel you out and if i see theres a chance youll stick with us ill begin to help you out more. Just because someone sees a price online and comes to see us afterwards doesnt mean their gonna buy from us. They might come to us to get sized and then go home to make sure we are in fact the lowest price!

In the end the $20 charge means nothing to you if you keep your business with us. I'd say 80% of the time i can tell if someone is going to buy from us or if their just browsing. Like a few others have mentioned by asking a few other questions i can then find out what their definitely gonna do.

[Chadd 916]

The other day I went in to try on some skates, I had the one 75 in mind, but they only had the one95 or one55. I still tried them to get the idea of a similar fit, but did not end up buying them because my mind was set on the one75. he couldn't order what I wanted so, hey I went to have a look online...

I always try to take as less time as I can from the seller if I know I'm not going to end up buying them... I just need him to get the skates for me and that's all anyways, then if I buy them I'll need him for heating, sharpening...

How can your mind be set on a skate you haven't even tried on?

So you're new to MSH?

Once again some are starting to take this post out of text. I've stated that we have a large following of customers that come back year after year, we also gain new customers from the great customer service and support we offer. I hardly ever refuse service and always try and make my customers happy when they walk out the door.

Without turning this a thousand directions like some of you are, look at it in its simplest form. If you come to my store to buy a pair of skates you will get get service, support, and help. If you come to just browse or get sized, i might offer a few pointers or thoughts but im not gonna invest the time or effort. I might feel you out and if i see theres a chance youll stick with us ill begin to help you out more. Just because someone sees a price online and comes to see us afterwards doesnt mean their gonna buy from us. They might come to us to get sized and then go home to make sure we are in fact the lowest price!

In the end the $20 charge means nothing to you if you keep your business with us. I'd say 80% of the time i can tell if someone is going to buy from us or if their just browsing. Like a few others have mentioned by asking a few other questions i can then find out what their definitely gonna do.

A lot of people aren't going to agree with you, no matter what you say about this. Every time this has been discussed it has gone the same way, I'm not sure why you would expect it to change this time.

[hockeysc23 0]

MSH needs a place for "Dealers only" because as Dale Jarrett said, "Until you sit in my seat, you have no idea what is going on."

I disagree. A lot of the people commenting on here are potential type customers. Not to mention while many may not own a hockey store lots of people have experience either through family members or personal experience with retail type stores.

That being said I see both sides of the coin since my parents both own retails stores and have been greatly effected by online sales.

While I understand CT's policy of $20 dollars and it does seem to make sense based on his evaluation of his customer base and the use of his employees time he shouldn't discount some of the good pointers given here (not saying you are just saying maybe take a good look at them).

The best lil bit of knowledge I saw here was the poster that talked about how if you are cheaper than online then why are your customers still not shopping with you. You have all the models and a better price with obviously better service.

So what is missing?

I would take a better approach at marketing your better prices. Maybe signs showing your competitors prices (Hockeygiant, hockeymonkey, etc.) and what they get and then your prices.

Maybe info signs illustrating the importance of a good fitting skate.

It sounds like you have a good idea going but maybe try this approach before a flat fee that could drive your customers off.

Also as stated before I wouldn't charge online customers a lot extra just because they bought online. All that does is validate their purchase. If you offer them great service on repairs etc. that would win them over to you more than extra charges and fees.

Best of luck.

[Chadd 916]

Also as stated before I wouldn't charge online customers a lot extra just because they bought online. All that does is validate their purchase. If you offer them great service on repairs etc. that would win them over to you more than extra charges and fees.

Best of luck.

Some people will never be won over, even it means saving $2 online. That doesn't mean you should go out of your way to screw them though.

[GrafPro55 0]

Sometimes people overlook the value of a seasoned, knowledgeable skate fitter. It is the most important thing in hockey and figure skating. I really couldn't tell you how charging would go over. The education I gained, from someone fitting me properly, would be huge in my opinion.

[DarkStar50 679]

I agree with Chadd. Every time the fitting fee thread starts up, it goes straight to the same old places- the internet is here to stay(duh), the LHS is doing something wrong if he wants to charge a fee and his prices are already low, the customer who will never shop at a LHS that charges a fitting fee, and on and on.

My point about "Dealers Only" is that at one time there was a true hockey industry trade show in Montreal that brought together dealers from around the world in one place for one week-end to look at all the new product. The CSGA shows at the Bonaventure make the OneGoal and LetsPlayHockey show look like Junior High School pageants. The hockey industry was different then and I know that. However, the info and ideas that were traded among dealers was priceless for what we learned from each other's experiences. MSH is 95% customers and maybe 5% of dealers are here. I'm probably wrong but only Chadd and JR would have a good idea of the dealers on the site. I learn as much from listening to that 95% here. It's just that it would be good to share with the other 5%, the dealers, what we know. Hey, we might make it better for the 95%!!!!

[sdcopp 1]

one of my local shops has this very policy and has had very little issue of any lost business. We HAD two branches of a big chain retailer. We only have one of those shops now, and they have all the latest and greatest gear out on display and countless people who will come in, try on, and save $10 online. 3 guys out of work in this economy because they turned into a fitting room for a lot of "customers" who walked through the door.

Back to shop A, he's doing just fine with his fitting fee and would rather have a good consumer base and turn away tire kickers and pain in the ass "customers". Service work is 20% cost of new on products "brought-in" as well, so charging additionally there is not as obscene as everyone here wants to make it out to be. Service work isn't exactly high margin profit compared to moving product from your shelves.

[Hockeydog 8]

I think it is reasonable for a LHS to charge for a personal skate fitting. The LHS is giving knowledge to the customer, and while anyone in sales knows that time spent doesn't always mean a sale, knowledge is earned and therefore should be compensated. Spending the time to correctly fit a skate to someones foot is a service, not a sale.

I don't agree with laughing at people or charging inflated prices for services because they didn't buy their skates there. Charge more for a bake/profile/sharpening than you would for a skate purchased there, but don't make sure they will never want to come back to your store. I go to a LHS and have all my work done there. They don't carry all brands and I have bought online IF I couldn't get the brand there. I gladly pay more for the bake/profile/sharpening and make sure I buy something else while in the shop. I will always pay more at the LHS if they have or can get what I need. It's not charity towards some poor little shop owner who is fighting the mega-store, it is building a good relationship with skilled, knowledgeable professionals who do things that a web store can never do. It's to my benefit that the LHS stays around, and as many, many have stated, once you figure in shipping, baking, blade work, it is about the same. And if it is a few bucks more than consider that the money the LHS has earned for the knowledge it has to give.

And as far as charging a refundable fitting fee, why not allow that $20 or whatever to be credited

towards any purchase over a set amount- say $100 or something like that. That way the "what if they don't have the model skate I want" aurgument can be offset.

[sarmalidu 1]

The real key to me seems to be adding value in ways that online retailers can't match. I can say that I would honestly be willing to pay more than $20 if the person is really excellent, knows foot types, boot types, brand trends, etc. The issue really is of principal and how to will handle unique cases. You would definitely have to be prepared to refund people's fitting fee in certain circumstances (say nothing fits them in their size).

On a side note, as odd as it may sound I have had a really hard time finding somebody who really can fit a skate properly. I have had attentive friendly service when trying skates but I have NEVER really found anybody I would consider an expert. This is pretty backwards since I live in MN which is a huge hockey state, so they must exist. If anybody knows of somebody who is really excellent (i.e. a professional custom fitter type) in MN I would be willing to pay for it if they really know their stuff. It seems like I am always "almost very satisfied" when dealing with hockey skates but can't find something that is just right.

Another thought that may be the best of both worlds-

One good idea would be to charge a fitting fee but if people want to help themselves you could do that. That way your time is not wasted but you aren't absolutely forcing people to pay. $20 for help fitting and $0 to do it yourself.

[GH_ID 0]

The other day I went in to try on some skates, I had the one 75 in mind, but they only had the one95 or one55. I still tried them to get the idea of a similar fit, but did not end up buying them because my mind was set on the one75. he couldn't order what I wanted so, hey I went to have a look online...

I always try to take as less time as I can from the seller if I know I'm not going to end up buying them... I just need him to get the skates for me and that's all anyways, then if I buy them I'll need him for heating, sharpening...

How can your mind be set on a skate you haven't even tried on?

Because I've tried similar skates from previous years and know what to look for... And they did fit perfectly.

[JR Boucicaut 3805]

The other day I went in to try on some skates, I had the one 75 in mind, but they only had the one95 or one55. I still tried them to get the idea of a similar fit, but did not end up buying them because my mind was set on the one75. he couldn't order what I wanted so, hey I went to have a look online...

I always try to take as less time as I can from the seller if I know I'm not going to end up buying them... I just need him to get the skates for me and that's all anyways, then if I buy them I'll need him for heating, sharpening...

How can your mind be set on a skate you haven't even tried on?

Because I've tried similar skates from previous years and know what to look for... And they did fit perfectly.

Yet you IMd me on Facebook repeatedly to validate your purchase...come on! ;)

That'll be $10 next time.

I had a fitting fee in my stores about 5 yrs ago. Didn't go very well.

But I had gotten to a point where I could tell the "shoppers" from the shoppers.

[canadian_man_44 0]

I've tried on skates in stores and later bought the same pair online. Granted it was for a much better price, but, I specifically told the person who wanted to help me at the store that I was just trying on a few models and wasn't purchasing that day. They were pretty courteous and even pointed me in the direction of some skates that might work better for me. Great customer service to a guy that they knew wasn't buying that day. Even though I ended up purchasing online for that particular product(at a much cheaper price), I went back to that store and have spent at least 10 times what the skates would have cost me....because of the customer service....and I will go back and buy more there for the same reasons.

As a side note, I didn't go into the store with thought that I was going to try some skates on and buy online. I did find the skate I wanted and needed to save up a little more money....I just happened to see a much better price on them while surfing.

[furlanitalia 1]

I love the LHS atmosphere and would never buy online. The only way I got my one95's properly fitted was by baking them. Not to mention it scares me to think that if this trend keeps up the LHS could be done and away with!

[rmnyi 0]

Skate fitting is what brought me to this site. As a consumer I like to know as much as I can before I make the purchase and just wasn't getting the info at the LHS. I found a lot of kids working in these stores and I didn't feel that I was getting the attention I needed and didn't get the right help until I spoke with the owner/manager.

Having said that, I would support a fitting fee provided that I'm getting the help from a knowledgeable person. I would rather pay the fitting fee than pay a return shipping and/or re-stocking fee to some website.

[GH_ID 0]

The other day I went in to try on some skates, I had the one 75 in mind, but they only had the one95 or one55. I still tried them to get the idea of a similar fit, but did not end up buying them because my mind was set on the one75. he couldn't order what I wanted so, hey I went to have a look online...

I always try to take as less time as I can from the seller if I know I'm not going to end up buying them... I just need him to get the skates for me and that's all anyways, then if I buy them I'll need him for heating, sharpening...

How can your mind be set on a skate you haven't even tried on?

Because I've tried similar skates from previous years and know what to look for... And they did fit perfectly.

Yet you IMd me on Facebook repeatedly to validate your purchase...come on! ;)

That'll be $10 next time.

I had a fitting fee in my stores about 5 yrs ago. Didn't go very well.

But I had gotten to a point where I could tell the "shoppers" from the shoppers.

Come on JR, you know that was just getting your point of view ;) I'm a big boy ;)

[Larry54 243]

I wouldn't mind a fitting fee provided that the fitter is very competent and that the store has every model of every brand in every size and width. But even in Montreal, I haven't seen such a perfect place. And if for example I wanted to try a width that they were out of, I would expect to be able to leave without paying the fee.

And charging for fitting sort of increases your responsibility if the skates end up not working out for whatever reason, even if the fee is credited on the purchase. Would the fee serve as an "insurance" for a full refund if the skates end up hurting the buyers feet?

It's a pretty touchy situation with a lot of things to consider.

[sabres48 0]

I wouldn't mind a fitting fee provided that the fitter is very competent and that the store has every model of every brand in every size and width. But even in Montreal, I haven't seen such a perfect place. And if for example I wanted to try a width that they were out of, I would expect to be able to leave without paying the fee.

And charging for fitting sort of increases your responsibility if the skates end up not working out for whatever reason, even if the fee is credited on the purchase. Would the fee serve as an "insurance" for a full refund if the skates end up hurting the buyers feet?

It's a pretty touchy situation with a lot of things to consider.

I have to say the "realest" post ive heard in this thread is Chadd's. We can debate, and acknowledge the idea of a fitting fee but bottom line is people hate change. Yes it makes sense for the LHS owner to charge fora fitting fee, BUT think about it from a realistic approach: Would you, being the LHS owner, be happy if you had to pay a 5 dollar fee to try shoes on? How do you know your going to find something you like? What if they dont have your size? It just not a sensible decision.

Furthermore in most cases there is only one owner. Everyone else still gets payed the same regaurdless of how many skates you do or dont sell; granted if you dont make enough money you may start laying off but in any other situation smart consumerism doesnt effect them.

And finally, the reason i quoted the above post is because of the bolded line. Allowing a refund if they dont have your size doesnt work because then ill just go in your shop and find what size fits me then act like its super tight or wide when in my head im thinking man these 10.5 fit perfect cant wait to go get them for 150 less online, then proceed to ask for an R with or EE width in an obscere half size that you obviously wont have, and im out of there scott free.

Dick move? Absolutley, but such is life.

[Chadd 916]

My point about "Dealers Only" is that at one time there was a true hockey industry trade show in Montreal that brought together dealers from around the world in one place for one week-end to look at all the new product. The CSGA shows at the Bonaventure make the OneGoal and LetsPlayHockey show look like Junior High School pageants. The hockey industry was different then and I know that. However, the info and ideas that were traded among dealers was priceless for what we learned from each other's experiences. MSH is 95% customers and maybe 5% of dealers are here. I'm probably wrong but only Chadd and JR would have a good idea of the dealers on the site. I learn as much from listening to that 95% here. It's just that it would be good to share with the other 5%, the dealers, what we know. Hey, we might make it better for the 95%!!!!

We've talked about it a couple times, so far we have decided not to implement it.

[DarkStar50 679]

I talked to JR about it, too. It would never work with the right intentions. The best place to get dealers together to exchange ideas is a bar.

[Too Old 1]

The statement about "laughing and giving a ridiculous price to fix things up" or such floors me. In these economic times you don't piss in your Cheerios. You take every opportunity to gain a new customer. I am the service administrator/manager at an RV dealer and when folks come in with issues or problems which began with another dealer the last thing I do is add fuel to the fire. We don't talk negatively; we do what we can to resolve those issues and I'd hazard a guess 90% of the time if we do then we've won another service (and potentially sales) customer. By insulting a customer (which by "laughing" at them or "charging a ridiculous amount" you do) all you're doing is losing potential income. IMO I don't care how good a business's reputation is... it can always be even better. The same philosophy I have at my job carries over to my racecar transmission/parts ventures. You accept a challenge with open arms and it'll amaze you how word of mouth travels in the community. And I'll say this; at the RV dealership we don't have the lowest labor rate in our market area. But we win the Winnebago Circle of Excellence award every year, and our customer satisfaction rate (as determined by follow-up letters/etc) is over 95% consistently. Never demean or belittle a customer over a purchase; show them what the alternatives are and seize the opportunity!

[stick9 902]

when in my head im thinking man these 10.5 fit perfect cant wait to go get them for 150 less online

That's enough of a margin to get even the most loyal shop supporter to buy from an online retailer.

Money's tight, you can't expect to keep your customers when your prices aren't at least competitive.