BladeMaster's alternative wheel dressing

[vek 0]

For what it's worth (not bashing, just sharing my opinion) I had the exact same experience with FBV (having skated on it for over a year). Unlike ROH FBV seems to require a very experienced sharpener & leaves very little room for error especially for shallow hollows such as 100/50.

I have the exact experience you have detailed with the FBV. Despite many places offering the FBV in Toronto, consistency has been a huge issue, varying from terrific to absolutely unskatable, and usually somewhere in between - depending on the operator, not the shop- and I've never experienced this sort of variability in ROH.

After a particularly bad sharpening resulted in an ACL tear, (my fault for not getting off the ice after knowing I had bad blades) I've gone back to 5/8ths ROH instead of my pre-FBV 1/2, and have a lot more confidence in my edges, and the shallower cut blends the difference in terms of effort and speed from the FBV.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

I have the exact experience you have detailed with the FBV. Despite many places offering the FBV in Toronto, consistency has been a huge issue, varying from terrific to absolutely unskatable, and usually somewhere in between - depending on the operator, not the shop- and I've never experienced this sort of variability in ROH.

After a particularly bad sharpening resulted in an ACL tear, (my fault for not getting off the ice after knowing I had bad blades) I've gone back to 5/8ths ROH instead of my pre-FBV 1/2, and have a lot more confidence in my edges, and the shallower cut blends the difference in terms of effort and speed from the FBV.

I am wondering what places you have gone to that were so bad?

I know we have had more and more people switching to FBV not less.

We also make sure the skates are level and that a pass or 2 extra is done to ensure a solid edge!

Although personally I recommend the 90/75 for most!

[JJStripes 1]

Getting back to the original purpose of this thread.

I have been skating on the BladeMaster version for like 4 months. That's about 320 hours on the ice, and I get the X8 version. I am tremendously satisfied. Previously I was skating on 5/8's. I find that with the X8 I get the same light feeling(as opposed to sinking) as with 5/8's, but my tight turns and general confidence in my edges is significantly improved. In addition, I like that there is no room for error on the part of the person sharpening my skates. I can tell just by looking at the steel if it was done right or not, and the person sharpening does not have the option to compromise on quality of work. It has to be just right and as a result my sharpenings have been very consistent. I can't go back.

[SolarWind 23]

Getting back to the original purpose of this thread.

I have been skating on the BladeMaster version for like 4 months. That's about 320 hours on the ice...

WOW - you get ~ 20 hr/week on ice?! Good for you man - I'm jealous! :)

...there is no room for error on the part of the person sharpening my skates. I can tell just by looking at the steel if it was done right or not, and the person sharpening does not have the option to compromise on quality of work. It has to be just right and as a result my sharpenings have been very consistent. I can't go back.

what you say sounds very intriguing since MY personal experience with FBV seems to be just the opposite - very inconsistent.

So how does it work that X8 is fool proof?!

[JJStripes 1]

WOW - you get ~ 20 hr/week on ice?! Good for you man - I'm jealous! :)

Between reffing, coaching and playing the hours add up quick.

what you say sounds very intriguing since MY personal experience with FBV seems to be just the opposite - very inconsistent.

So how does it work that X8 is fool proof?!

I think a lot of it has to do with the person doing the sharpening, but it seems to me that there is no room for error when you cut this shape into the steel. If it's not done right then it will be really really bad. The guys that do mine take pride in their work and so far they have done it right every time. I don't think it's fool proof, but the guys doing the work don't really have the option of doing a half ass job like they could with normal sharpening. I'm sorry that you are not getting the same positive results.

[Engineer44 0]

maybe I shouldn't have mentioned BM in this case since it didn't really add up, I just read it there first

irrespective of that there's "no propaganda" in saying that an arch is stronger then an angle because it distributes the force evenly (physics 101) - this is why bridge support structures are arches, not angular constructions

Physics 101 is a first year course; everything is so basic and therefore of such limited value, in first year. I would agree with you that arches are great if you are building openings in a stone wall (or in any material that is weak in tension). Also arches are a great way to span great distances such as in aqueducts, cathedral ceilings, or long bridge spans. However, when I took Engineering 303 – Strength of Materials and Engineering 404 - Machine Design, I learned a great deal more about the design of mechanical systems. This knowledge continued to grow as I designed mechanical systems and later taught those same engineering courses.

Ice skate blades are not bridges or buildings and stainless steel is not weak in tension, so whatever Physics 101 said about arches, does not apply to the edges of ice skate blades.

What the Black Stone FBV does is:

1) Maximize the flat zone on the bottom of the skate blade. When people want to skate fast, such as speed skaters they leave the bottom of the blade absolutely flat. Least ice penetration, leads to least drag (please note that what Physics 101 tells you about friction isn’t true either, contact area does matter).

2) Have sharp very small edges that can wedge into the ice (this is the vee) when you want to turn or stop. Also if the tangs are not very high they won’t create very much drag when they sink into the ice.

The strength of those very small sharp edges can very easily be calculated using any number of FEA (finite element analysis programs). I have done this for the FBV shapes (Black Stone provides all of the geometry information in the name of their FBV profiles) and would love to do the same calculations for the Blademaster BFD X6, X7, and X8, however there is no geometry information provided about their shape. Without the geometry information being provided, there can be no scientific comparison, only opinion and speculation.

[SolarWind 23]

Physics 101 is a first year course; everything is so basic and therefore of such limited value, in first year. I would agree with you that arches are great if you are building openings in a stone wall (or in any material that is weak in tension). Also arches are a great way to span great distances such as in aqueducts, cathedral ceilings, or long bridge spans. However, when I took Engineering 303 – Strength of Materials and Engineering 404 - Machine Design, I learned a great deal more about the design of mechanical systems. This knowledge continued to grow as I designed mechanical systems and later taught those same engineering courses.

Ice skate blades are not bridges or buildings and stainless steel is not weak in tension, so whatever Physics 101 said about arches, does not apply to the edges of ice skate blades.

What the Black Stone FBV does is:

1) Maximize the flat zone on the bottom of the skate blade. When people want to skate fast, such as speed skaters they leave the bottom of the blade absolutely flat. Least ice penetration, leads to least drag (please note that what Physics 101 tells you about friction isn’t true either, contact area does matter).

2) Have sharp very small edges that can wedge into the ice (this is the vee) when you want to turn or stop. Also if the tangs are not very high they won’t create very much drag when they sink into the ice.

The strength of those very small sharp edges can very easily be calculated using any number of FEA (finite element analysis programs). I have done this for the FBV shapes (Black Stone provides all of the geometry information in the name of their FBV profiles) and would love to do the same calculations for the Blademaster BFD X6, X7, and X8, however there is no geometry information provided about their shape. Without the geometry information being provided, there can be no scientific comparison, only opinion and speculation.

while you certainly make a valid point about 303 & 404 providing more advanced & in-depth information, they do not however replace 101! In addition as matters get complex (such as in this case) this is when actual experiences come to life: sometimes we can't definitevily explain 'why' things are different' but we can feel that they 'are' different! and your 1-2 for FBV just as well apply to Blademaster BFD X?.

With that I do find this logic faulty: "Ice skate blades are not bridges or buildings and stainless steel is not weak in tension, so whatever Physics 101 said about arches, does not apply to the edges of ice skate blades."

Of course skates aren't bridges, but when you compare skate edges for FBV & ROH the arch one would be stronger & sharper (because of the bite angles).

having that said I'm approaching 40 hrs on ice on a single sharpening (5/8), and I could never get even close with 100/50 FBV.

plus all other tangibles described above.

I do agree with you: it'd be very interesting to compare FEA for BM & BS! Maybe you could obtain the specs directly from BM?

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

Same sharpener doing both though?

[SolarWind 23]

Same sharpener doing both though?

not sure if this was for me JR, but in my particular case no - different sharpeners.

not sure what point you're going to make, but re sharpeners: from what I observed FBV seems to require more experienced sharpener then ROH. The actual technicalities are beyond me, but somehow even 'kids of the street' seem to be able to do 'ok' job with ROH, but with FBV I've gotten really bad sharpening way too many times.

as the saying goes 'to each his own' :)

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

Longer edges wear out faster than shorter edges. At this point FBV lasts longer for me than a standard ROH - I used to be someone who got them sharpened every time I skate, now I am able to go 4-5 skates on a FBV.

Regardless, my point is extremely valid - I just think that your FBV sharpener just isn't very good, and they aren't consistent. So, just saying that "it isn't for me" is pretty short-sighted. But, what can you do?

And as for your last point to engineer44, it's not like they did any research, so I'm pretty sure there won't be any geometry information.

[Engineer44 0]

while you certainly make a valid point about 303 & 404 providing more advanced & in-depth information, they do not however replace 101! In addition as matters get complex (such as in this case) this is when actual experiences come to life: sometimes we can't definitevily explain 'why' things are different' but we can feel that they 'are' different! and your 1-2 for FBV just as well apply to Blademaster BFD X?.

With that I do find this logic faulty: "Ice skate blades are not bridges or buildings and stainless steel is not weak in tension, so whatever Physics 101 said about arches, does not apply to the edges of ice skate blades."

Of course skates aren't bridges, but when you compare skate edges for FBV & ROH the arch one would be stronger & sharper (because of the bite angles).

having that said I'm approaching 40 hrs on ice on a single sharpening (5/8), and I could never get even close with 100/50 FBV.

plus all other tangibles described above.

I do agree with you: it'd be very interesting to compare FEA for BM & BS! Maybe you could obtain the specs directly from BM?

I have some difficulty with the use of the term 'arch' in relation to any blade profile that has a flat on top, namely the BFD. In my opinion the circular arc (ROH) traditional skate profile is an arch. Also using a parabolic shape or an elliptical shape would also fit the use of arch in their description. The only apparant geometrical difference between the FBV and the BFD are that one has a straight internal side while the other has a curve (exact geometry unknown) of some sort for its internal side and the width of the flat on the BFD is unknown. Depending on the radius or curvature of the BFD internal side, it could be thinner or thicker than the straight sided wedge shape of the FBV. What is the shape and how do we know what the bite angles are? Do we simply accept that it is better as you suggest or would a geometric analysis provide some real information? Perhaps BM would like to share their geometry with their users. I for one dislike the fact that neither geometrical of performance data is available.

[UMWhockey 0]

I don't know about what last longer, but I don't remember ever being able to skate 70 hours on a sharpening before until the FBV. Between coaching, playing, and reffing the edges last for me. I would think teaching edge work and powerskating where I demo much of the drills I would put a little wear on the edges as well. Then again I shapren my own skates as well. Some of it is lazyness in not sharpening my skates more often, but even on hour 70 I had no problem playing on or teaching edge work on my blades. I, like JR, feel the edges do last longer. Can't say I have tried the BM version, but to be honest after the way they presented their idea as well as tried to sell me the idea at LPH, not sure I would really want to use it anyway.

[Jarick 5]

I went from a sharpening every 6-8 skates to about 10-12 with the FBV. I usually only get them sharpened when there's a nick in the blade. I rarely feel them get dull, but if the blade gets nicked it seems a lot worse than it would be with a regular hollow.

[The Lord Flash 0]

To those who answered me sorry for not coming back to you, a newbie here i couldn't find the post i had put on here so ended up re posting in another discussion thread. (if you find that one forgive my dullness) My BRC 2005 doesn't have a magnetic top so won't work with the MFD from Blademaster. I didn't know Blackstones would work with it but would be a little suspect over the accuracy of the spinner meeting the wheel square and from what has been said here a bad sharpener or just getting the shape wrong on the wheel and it's game over. My options are becoming (and i am doing this since FBV or MFD? is not really available in the UK) buy a new Blademaster or Blackstone machine that can offer the new type sharpen - let's just leave the Z thing for the moment- re top my existing Blademaster machine, stick to ROH completely, maybe look at the Blackstone dresser for my existing machine and worry that accuracy will mean i am one of the sharpeners being hammered on this site for giving a bad grind on a good system (FBV or otherwise) The variables need limiting, it has been discussed on threads here that the set up of the holder and edge checker (generic not trade named) make a difference, number of passes, with or against the wheel, both ways, cross ground, toe forward or heel forward, weight of the boot unsupported in the holder offering the lower edge to the wheel earlier hence an off centre or uneven edge and the tollerances in 1000ths of an inch that may or not be acceptable. With ROH I agree it's maybe more forgiving, the shape on the wheel put there by the spinner/shaper is far more important to overall accuracy and profile transfered subsequently to the steel. Minimising these errors is therefore optimum.....,Sooooo

seems the jury is still out on this for me and I'll read with interest the replies. I have by te way no real allegance or loyalty as business is business and all i want is the best option available to my club.............

TLF <_<

[Ivan 1]

Lets be honest here....nothing wrong with a BM machine and BS has come a LONG way and come up with something amazing....what it comes down to now is really the two best companies in the business trying to out do each other which will only be better for the skater in the end from a rec level person to a Pro.....

So if BM does...I am sure they will try something else till they have something in the mean time enjoy the FBV.....

I'm just happy that BM stopped trying to trash the concept and decided to try and do something productive. It was funny having their guys tell me it was "garbage" or "crap" while offering nothing new of their own. Given what I have read it will be interesting to see if the BM product can withstand a patent infringement challenge.

Prosharp told me that the FBV concept is 40 years old and was first implemented on T-blades 15 years ago. I'm lost here:)

[Chadd 916]

Prosharp told me that the FBV concept is 40 years old and was first implemented on T-blades 15 years ago. I'm lost here:)

For the sake of argument, let's assume the flat bottom concept is 40 years old; It took Blackstone's spinner system to be able to actually put that hollow on the bottom of the skate. You simply couldn't do that with any other sharpener on the market.

I never examined the geometry on a t'blade that closely, but they still used traditional measurements for the hollows and not the modified angles. The reason they ended up with something similar was simply in order to save weight and use less steel, not to provide a performance benefit. I had several conversations and email exchanges with Dr Kunz about t'blades, he's a very nice guy, and he gave great details when he answered questions. Personally, I had all kinds of problems with t'blades but I know they work for a lot of people.

More than anything, it's just sour grapes and knocking the competition by prosharp in an effort to make themselves look better. I never liked it when a company had to rip the other guy in order to make their own product look better in comparison.

[Ivan 1]

1.

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leh1FM3oAQ0 Looks clumsy to me. Seems to be a pain to re-dress the wheel during sharpening of a pair of skates - you do want to re-dress if you shoot for quality sharpening.

3.

. I assume there gotta be a way to polish the blade with a polishing liquid or something as they sell polishing materials. But how do you go with almost no pressure on your final pass with polishing?

[jimmy 194]

3.

. I assume there gotta be a way to polish the blade with a polishing liquid or something as they sell polishing materials. But how do you go with almost no pressure on your final pass with polishing?

To polish final pass, all you do is take skate off, apply compound, then do 1 pass. Piece of cake, takes a few seconds. Superior finish as well.

[notquitedeadyet 13]

Prosharp told me that the FBV concept is 40 years old and was first implemented on T-blades 15 years ago. I'm lost here:)

I do remember that t'blades originally had a non-conventional hollow similar to a fbv.

Not quite sure when/why they went to a conventional roh.

[Ivan 1]

To polish final pass, all you do is take skate off, apply compound, then do 1 pass. Piece of cake, takes a few seconds. Superior finish as well.

I figure you can adjust the grinding wheel presure on the machine then.

Anyway, I prolly should shut up. It's a BM BFD thread.

[Engineer44 0]

To those who answered me sorry for not coming back to you, a newbie here i couldn't find the post i had put on here so ended up re posting in another discussion thread. (if you find that one forgive my dullness) My BRC 2005 doesn't have a magnetic top so won't work with the MFD from Blademaster. I didn't know Blackstones would work with it but would be a little suspect over the accuracy of the spinner meeting the wheel square and from what has been said here a bad sharpener or just getting the shape wrong on the wheel and it's game over. My options are becoming (and i am doing this since FBV or MFD? is not really available in the UK) buy a new Blademaster or Blackstone machine that can offer the new type sharpen - let's just leave the Z thing for the moment- re top my existing Blademaster machine, stick to ROH completely, maybe look at the Blackstone dresser for my existing machine and worry that accuracy will mean i am one of the sharpeners being hammered on this site for giving a bad grind on a good system (FBV or otherwise) The variables need limiting, it has been discussed on threads here that the set up of the holder and edge checker (generic not trade named) make a difference, number of passes, with or against the wheel, both ways, cross ground, toe forward or heel forward, weight of the boot unsupported in the holder offering the lower edge to the wheel earlier hence an off centre or uneven edge and the tollerances in 1000ths of an inch that may or not be acceptable. With ROH I agree it's maybe more forgiving, the shape on the wheel put there by the spinner/shaper is far more important to overall accuracy and profile transfered subsequently to the steel. Minimising these errors is therefore optimum.....,Sooooo

seems the jury is still out on this for me and I'll read with interest the replies. I have by te way no real allegance or loyalty as business is business and all i want is the best option available to my club.............

TLF <_<

One of the Black Stone stand alone dressers is available specifically for use on non magnetic table tops. This dresser comes with a stainless steel (magnetic) plate that you attach to the front of your spindle tower (double sticky tape will do). The magnetic base in the stand alone dresser squares it self to your table surface through gravity and clamps (magetically) to the new stainless steel plate so that it is rigidly held while you are dressing. I hope that this helps with your decision.