Drilling Step Steel?

[Chadd 916]

Easton, Graf, Bauer and CCM/Reebok all pretty much did the same thing as drilling holes with their runners at one point.

Also, the steel closest to the holder isn't usable steel anyway... which is why everyone has tried this technique to reduce weight.

I find it hard to believe that their R&D process was just to drill random holes and see what happened. It's amazing how NHL players manage to get by with solid steel weighing down their skates.

[TBLfan 25]

I find it hard to believe that their R&D process was just to drill random holes and see what happened. It's amazing how NHL players manage to get by with solid steel weighing down their skates.

The concept of removing unneeded steel from the runners is the same.

Of course they didn't just drill random holes and I seriously doubt she is planning on just drilling a bunch of holes all over her steel.

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

Sticks are required to fail under a certain amount of force, someone probably knows what it is, but it is a safety issue. If the stick doesn't break then the leg will.

Exactly right.

Shaft must break before the blade, so that you don't impale yourself.

Steve Downie speared himself last week. Not sure if the stick broke.

[Jarick 5]

I'm curious to see what you find out, just to see if it cracks or not mostly.

But I'd have to agree, with Grafs, I'm not sure the weight savings at the steel is going to be that significant...it'd be like shaving down the blade of a wood stick...maybe it lowers the weight but the balance wouldn't change all that much. However, on a super light skate that might make a bigger difference. Just my guess.

[Vathsdrop 0]

Especially for any anthlete due to the added weight of muscle. It is also a very in accurate report of body fat. Probably because (my understanding) is that it doesn't measure body fat lol

:lol:

i really don't think it's her case you talking about "exception there".

It's still a very good indicator for normal individuals and most of all it's within everyone's capability to calculate...

It has nothing to do with fat or muscle mass (it's not taking into account at all).. it's just a indication of one's corpulence unless being built like a robocop if you score a 30+ you've got good chance of increasing your cardiovascular/respirator systems performance (but also all other systems) by losing a bit of weight B)

[chippa13 1844]

BMI is a reliable indicator of total body fat, which is related to the risk of disease and death. The score is valid for both men and women but it does have some limits. The limits are:

It may overestimate body fat in athletes and others who have a muscular build.

It may underestimate body fat in older persons and others who have lost muscle mass.

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

I'm curious to see what you find out, just to see if it cracks or not mostly.

But I'd have to agree, with Grafs, I'm not sure the weight savings at the steel is going to be that significant...it'd be like shaving down the blade of a wood stick...maybe it lowers the weight but the balance wouldn't change all that much. However, on a super light skate that might make a bigger difference. Just my guess.

Removing the weight at the bottom makes a difference.

[rachael7 1]

How about having a composite shop make carbon fiber holders? Cost would be ugly but weight/strength are off the hook. Carbon fiber is amazingly strong and I'd believe it would not have any issues with puck impacts. The only real issue I could see may be skate nicks as it could lead to a structural failure if they were deep enough. Pics of my two other most favorite carbon fiber items (besides hockey sticks):

"gram-fag" :D (20.83 lb) mtb with c/f frame, fork, shock, rims, etc

c/f skid lid along with head & neck restraint system

Carbon fiber holders would be the bomb. But as you pointed out, cost would be through the roof for a one-off. If I was planning to go into low volume production, would probably be a very viable business idea. This was more of a 'what can I do on a rainy Saturday' kind of thing though, not planning to enter the market.

Sorry about the 'gram-fag' comment... I guess I showed a bit of the same BS I've gotten today. My bad. It's a nice bike, although it's still just a bike to me. But damn, that is one sweet lid! I quit racing years ago, but if I still did, I would HAVE to have one of those.

And to some other comments, no, I'm not just going to punch random holes. I'm a mechanical engineer, so if need be I'll have a buddy run finite element analysis on it. But I was thinking something pretty conservative, like a row of holes near the top edge, not unlike what CCM et al have done over the years, could be done without any major structural analysis - just some layout die and your basic machine shop tools. Might be a good idea, might not - just seemed like a possible way to be make an improvement (however small) without having to spend a ton of money.

I am a bit worried about the cracking aspect, but I believe that can be controlled if I keep the holes very clean, conservative, and placed near the top edge. Except when hit by a puck, the blades only see force applied straight down, so that steel really doesn't do anything there anyway. So as long as the drilling doesn't create any nasty stress concentration points, I think it would be ok. The cost of the steel doesn't worry me that much - not like I've never wasted $50 on hockey gear, right? But if it happened to let go on a breakaway, as I'm braking right before the boards... well that would suck.

They do say weight near the bottom makes the most difference. The talk about the new Fusion holders certainly brings that up frequently enough. Foot speed obviously matters to your game, and lighter skates has got to help with both foot speed and fatigue. So all other factors being equal, it should help a bit anyway. Right?

[TBLfan 25]

Exactly right.

Shaft must break before the blade, so that you don't impale yourself.

Steve Downie speared himself last week. Not sure if the stick broke.

stick broke... Even with the stick breaking it was enough to make him cough up blood.

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

stick broke... Even with the stick breaking it was enough to make him cough up blood.

I sat at the other end. Nobody could tell what happened. Stupid people in my section thought it was a neck injury - um, he's rolling around out there...

[cptjeff 0]

Carbon fiber holders would be the bomb. But as you pointed out, cost would be through the roof for a one-off. If I was planning to go into low volume production, would probably be a very viable business idea. This was more of a 'what can I do on a rainy Saturday' kind of thing though, not planning to enter the market.

Easton tried the carbon fiber holders. They had a tendency to get microfractures from pucks hitting them and then shatter at various times. There's a reason you don't see them made.

[TBLfan 25]

It was hard enough to break the stick in two places... but I thought it was the defenseman's stick. I might have to find some replays of it to find out.

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

Easton tried the carbon fiber holders. They had a tendency to get microfractures from pucks hitting them and then shatter at various times. There's a reason you don't see them made.

The bigger problem was that they were not sharpener-friendly. On standard jigs, you had to remove the runners.

[shotty 7]

yes! i encountered that problem my very first day on the machine.

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

I hated those things.

I had a customer in MI who refused to give them up.

I offered him a holder swap of his choice, for free. Wouldn't do it.

[vek 0]

Funny thread. I have the mental image of homer putting speed holes in his car.

[jsykes 35]

I would think that scalloping out the top of the steel would be better than holes in it. Much like the Easton steel that is out there. I would think the best way would be to have something like a water jet cut it out too, it would provide a super clean cut with little stress on the rest of the runner and could be duplicated easily on multiple runners if need be.

[rachael7 1]

I would think that scalloping out the top of the steel would be better than holes in it. Much like the Easton steel that is out there. I would think the best way would be to have something like a water jet cut it out too, it would provide a super clean cut with little stress on the rest of the runner and could be duplicated easily on multiple runners if need be.

Couldn't agree more. If I had a water jet out in the shop, that would definitely be the plan. Keeping the heat down will definitely be key, no matter which method is chosen.

[zebra_steve 11]

.....

I am a bit worried about the cracking aspect, but I believe that can be controlled if I keep the holes very clean, conservative, and placed near the top edge. Except when hit by a puck, the blades only see force applied straight down, so that steel really doesn't do anything there anyway. So as long as the drilling doesn't create any nasty stress concentration points, I think it would be ok. The cost of the steel doesn't worry me that much - not like I've never wasted $50 on hockey gear, right? But if it happened to let go on a breakaway, as I'm braking right before the boards... well that would suck.

I would argue that there is definitely torsional stress applied to the blade when you stride. There is (or should be) a natural rolling of your ankle and pointing of your toe as you go from a 90 degree angle between the blade and the ice at the start of your stride to what, maybe 20 some degrees at the very end of your stride. The manufacturers have made great advances in stiffening the soles of the boots, but I suspect that they still flex a bit (heck, I can grab the toe and heel of my Vapor xxxx's and twist them a bit).... As for the extra steel height..... I like that too. I'm one of those skaters that has wear marks on the inside edge of my soles next to the balls of my feet and a flat spot on the toe cup where my big toe is from how long and low I get with my stride. I like to have enough steel to carve a turn, maybe grind the sole a bit and not have the mount touch the ice.....

Your talking about bikes.... Made me go down and look at my old Canondale 3.1 road bike (IRRC it's a 63cm\25" frame)- all Shimano Dura-Ace goodies circa 1990. Lots of miles on that puppy. It replaced a Schwinn Prelude that I twisted doing sprints... BB was 5 cm left, rear axle was 3 cm right, and head tube was twisted ~10 degrees. The guy at Franklin frames asked me how long it took to recover from the crash when I was trying to get it straightened. Bought the Canondale 'cuz I got tired of riding a noodle.

But I digress..... I can respect what you are trying to do.. I've worn a large number of the top end boots from the late 1970's to the present. They have always tried to make them lighter, stiffer, and more comfortable. Eventually they will get the skates down to where they feel like you have nothing on your feet.... might cost a couple grand, but the someone will pay it....

[rachael7 1]

I would argue that there is definitely torsional stress applied to the blade when you stride. There is (or should be) a natural rolling of your ankle and pointing of your toe as you go from a 90 degree angle between the blade and the ice at the start of your stride to what, maybe 20 some degrees at the very end of your stride. The manufacturers have made great advances in stiffening the soles of the boots, but I suspect that they still flex a bit (heck, I can grab the toe and heel of my Vapor xxxx's and twist them a bit).... As for the extra steel height..... I like that too. I'm one of those skaters that has wear marks on the inside edge of my soles next to the balls of my feet and a flat spot on the toe cup where my big toe is from how long and low I get with my stride. I like to have enough steel to carve a turn, maybe grind the sole a bit and not have the mount touch the ice.....

Your talking about bikes.... Made me go down and look at my old Canondale 3.1 road bike (IRRC it's a 63cm\25" frame)- all Shimano Dura-Ace goodies circa 1990. Lots of miles on that puppy. It replaced a Schwinn Prelude that I twisted doing sprints... BB was 5 cm left, rear axle was 3 cm right, and head tube was twisted ~10 degrees. The guy at Franklin frames asked me how long it took to recover from the crash when I was trying to get it straightened. Bought the Canondale 'cuz I got tired of riding a noodle.

But I digress..... I can respect what you are trying to do.. I've worn a large number of the top end boots from the late 1970's to the present. They have always tried to make them lighter, stiffer, and more comfortable. Eventually they will get the skates down to where they feel like you have nothing on your feet.... might cost a couple grand, but the someone will pay it....

Interesting analysis of the stresses involved. I would agree that the sole of the boot definitely flexes during the stride, as does the holder, and that certainly applies some small torsional (and probably bending) load to the blade. But wouldn't the primary forces from the ice still be orthogonal? As the ankle rolls, the point of application of force changes, but it is still almost a single point. Seems to me the force lines go from the point of contact of the blade straight up through the leg. I suppose during edge transitions you probably twist the boot pretty hard, as you're setting into a stop for example, so I guess there are some situations where there could be a more substantial torsional load. Ok, I convinced myself while I was writing - point conceded. Torsional loads do make breakage much more likely, and at the worst possible times, too. There's a lot of steel on those Step blades though, and while you definitely sent me back to the thinking cap, my initial gut feel still says there's probably enough strength there for a lighter skater like me.

Nothing on the feet... I'm there. If they can make it feel like the steel grew right out of my feet (strange visions of X men playing ice hockey), a couple grand would be worth it. Maybe I'll talk to my orthopedic surgeon...

[ktang 34]

I'm thinking that the torsional stresses should be within your drilled steel's stress tolerances, because of the reasons you state and because the Easton parabolic steel and the older CCM scalloped steel seems to be able to handle the racking and flexing at the recreational level.

[zebra_steve 11]

I'm more of a "Clydesdale"..... I weight in at 6'4" 270 and my blades are 296\302's..... I don't really worry about a couple grams, but I dang sure want strength..... I would probably notice the "lightening" more than someone that wears a size 7 skate, I would also be putting a bit more stress on the blade in general. The greater distance between the anchor loops on the runners would allow for more material removal and a longer distance of unsupported\less supported runner that would be subject to the twisting. I really believe the force parallel or perpendicular to the runner would not be an issue, but the twisting of the runner between the two anchor locations is where the gotcha lies.... What runner was it that had three bolts. one at each end, and one in the middle.... that got the reputation of snapping in the middle?

[Drewhunz 3]

Mission Formula. The Drive Shaft sucked.

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

The Formula holder with Drive Shaft had zero problems when paired with a thermoplastic rubber outsole. When it was on a pair of skates with a carbon fiber outsole, that's when the breakages occurred.

You need the runner to flex.

[rachael7 1]

...

You need the runner to flex.

For stride mechanics? I always thought the whole idea was to make the whole assembly as stiff as possible. Can you elaborate?