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jrhky36

Winnipeg Jets return

By jrhky36, in NHL Discussions

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donkey87    0

donkey87
Posted

I'm not saying hockey in Atlanta was a good idea, or a big hit, or that Winnipeg won't work this time around. I'm just saying that lurking in Bettman's washing his hands of Atlanta, there is a tiny tincture of truth: that if the fans had said, we'll support the Thrashers as a club, no matter what, through thick and thin, and had effectively become supporters, the team might have had a better shot at becoming the entertainment product Bettman hoped it would be when he approved the franchise. Though we deride Leaf fans for paying premiums for a mediocre product, that support guarantees (in the technical sense) that there is a chance for the team to thrive.

The sad part is that the Thrashers had fans that supported the team no matter what. Despite making the playoffs only once in the past 10 years, the team average at least 13,000 fans per game each year. Now that's not a great a number, but it does show that there is a core group of fans that supports the team even when it struggles. The real issue that is killing Atlanta is the ownership. ASG has been a terrible owner. At one point(due to legal issues) they could only offer players one year contracts, which is why Savard left for Boston. ASG is the reason the team will be relocated. Phoenix(who has very similar attendance numbers as Atlanta) isn't being moved because they are being sold with a lease to the arena they play. ASG is selling the Thrashers but not Philips Arena, which leaves the Thrashers without a home. I think that if ASG was selling both the Thrashers and Philips Arena you would see the NHL step in the way they did in Phoenix.

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Law Goalie    147

Law Goalie
Posted

The sad part is that the Thrashers had fans that supported the team no matter what. Despite making the playoffs only once in the past 10 years, the team average at least 13,000 fans per game each year. Now that's not a great a number, but it does show that there is a core group of fans that supports the team even when it struggles. The real issue that is killing Atlanta is the ownership. ASG has been a terrible owner. At one point(due to legal issues) they could only offer players one year contracts, which is why Savard left for Boston. ASG is the reason the team will be relocated. Phoenix(who has very similar attendance numbers as Atlanta) isn't being moved because they are being sold with a lease to the arena they play. ASG is selling the Thrashers but not Philips Arena, which leaves the Thrashers without a home. I think that if ASG was selling both the Thrashers and Philips Arena you would see the NHL step in the way they did in Phoenix.

Well, it's moot now, but I didn't ever doubt that Atlanta had a good core of fans, who might well have reached toward supporterhood. That said, that 13,000 attendance is not only not a great number, as you say, it's not a hard count, and not even close to a reasonable representation of the amount of hardcore support. It would be fairer to say that, at most, some percentage of that 13,000 are hardcore fans approaching supporters; conversely, the reason why the ACC is packed every night is that the number of supporter-fans exceeds the number of seats by a factor of-- who knows... 10? 20? Now, these aren't necessarily supporters in the FA sense, but they are guarantors in the sense I mentioned earlier.

Your point about weak ownership is exactly what I was getting at: the product-driven 'fan' model requires that the owners turn the team around through investment, or sell to ones who will rejuvenate it. Conversely, the supporter model demands that everybody chip in their bit and show up to cheer no matter what the product on the field is; failure, oddly demands more of a supporter than success, whereas success is to the fan a large part of their reason for attendance.

You are entirely right to say it's a shame; I'm just not sure it was an avoidable shame.

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shoeshine boy    242

shoeshine boy
Posted

http://driveto13.com/price.php

Their new website and ticket prices. Will be a big pill to swallow for current Moose ticket holders.

well I heard recently that Winnipeg was getting a Target. maybe they can get second jobs to help pay for it?

question: I heard on the press conference that this was all going through TicketBastard. are they having to pay the outrageous TicketBastard fees on top of the ticket prices? judging by tickets I bought recently ($17 in FEES) that could be an extra $700 per ticket per season!

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donkey87    0

donkey87
Posted

Well, it's moot now, but I didn't ever doubt that Atlanta had a good core of fans, who might well have reached toward supporterhood. That said, that 13,000 attendance is not only not a great number, as you say, it's not a hard count, and not even close to a reasonable representation of the amount of hardcore support. It would be fairer to say that, at most, some percentage of that 13,000 are hardcore fans approaching supporters; conversely, the reason why the ACC is packed every night is that the number of supporter-fans exceeds the number of seats by a factor of-- who knows... 10? 20? Now, these aren't necessarily supporters in the FA sense, but they are guarantors in the sense I mentioned earlier.

The issue is that it takes time to develop supporters. There are very few situations that would allow you to start a completely new club and have 18,000+ supporters from the beginnings. As you mentioned earlier, the English clubs existed and developed support before the formation of any Football Association. They built up their support over time. For a brand new club in the North American market you are almost required to start with a "fan" based model in order to buy time to build a large number of supporters.

Your point about weak ownership is exactly what I was getting at: the product-driven 'fan' model requires that the owners turn the team around through investment, or sell to ones who will rejuvenate it. Conversely, the supporter model demands that everybody chip in their bit and show up to cheer no matter what the product on the field is; failure, oddly demands more of a supporter than success, whereas success is to the fan a large part of their reason for attendance.

You are entirely right to say it's a shame; I'm just not sure it was an avoidable shame.

I'm not arguing that if Atlanta had 20,000 people show up each and every game they would have had a better chance of success. I'm saying that it is ridiculous for Bettman to apply the predominately European view of sports teams to a non-traditional North American hockey market. The NHL knew the challenges they would be facing when they returned to Atlanta. The majority of NHL teams are run on the "fan" model, why would Atlanta be any different?

Also, Atlanta isn't being relocated because of a lack of fan support. Look at Phoenix. The Coyotes have roughly the same level of support as the Thrashers. Yet the NHL stepped in to keep the Coyotes in Arizona, while relocating the Thrashers to Winnipeg. The difference is in arenas. The sale of the Coyotes includes the long term lease for the arena in Glendale. The Thrashers are being sold, but ASG is retaining ownerships of Philips Arena. Even if someone bought the Thrashers with a desire to keep them in Atlanta, they wouldn't have an arena to hold games.

Edited for spelling.

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Joshison    1

Joshison
Posted

I don't care if they're the jets, moose, whatever, but I wish they'd keep the thrashers colors. I'm going to miss those ATL gloves...

Agreed, I got a sick Thrashers practice jersey

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ibeck    38

ibeck
Posted

Any thoughts on when to expect their name to be announced? Curiosity is killing me.

From what all the experts are saying, it sounds like they won't be called the the jets because true north doesnt want to be associated with the failure 15 years ago. I heard somewhere maybe the team would be named the winnipeg falcons in honour of the team that represented canada in ice hockey and won the countries first gold medal in belgium. That would have my vote.

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shoeshine boy    242

shoeshine boy
Posted

I'm betting that they'll go Manitoba _______

sounds like the NHL wants to get more people involved and able to call it their "home" team. hence Carolina, Florida, Colorado and Minnesota.

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aknee9    0

aknee9
Posted

It's pretty interesting to see how this will work out. The St.John's maple leafs left because the

leafs wanted the farm team closer.Now they will be traveling back and forth to Winnipeg? There have been rumors around here that it will not be the Winnipeg affiliate and that they will be the farm team for another NHL club.

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17D1998    1

17D1998
Posted

From what all the experts are saying, it sounds like they won't be called the the jets because true north doesnt want to be associated with the failure 15 years ago. I heard somewhere maybe the team would be named the winnipeg falcons in honour of the team that represented canada in ice hockey and won the countries first gold medal in belgium. That would have my vote.

Where the hell did you read that? it's actually not true at all. They will be called the Jets and even Bettman said it would not be a problem (since the name belongs to the NHL).

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2011/06/01/whats-in-a-name

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ibeck    38

ibeck
Posted

Where the hell did you read that? it's actually not true at all. They will be called the Jets and even Bettman said it would not be a problem (since the name belongs to the NHL).

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2011/06/01/whats-in-a-name

It's called listening and reading. It's what Bob McKenzie and darren Dreger and all the reports from Manitoba have said, it doesn't sound like it will happen. Second of all I said it doesn't seem like it will happen, I never said it won't.

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17D1998    1

17D1998
Posted

Oh well, it sounds like it's nobody can agree for sure, cause I heard pretty much the opposite on RDS. Anyway, we'll see what it is when it's unveiled at the draft (or earlier hopefully!)

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PartyMcFly    0

PartyMcFly
Posted

Interesting bit I heard Barry Melrose talking about today on the ESPN Hockey Today Podcast.

There's a chance that Winnipeg will be playing in the Southeast Division for '11-'12 due to re-alignment being a major pain in the d**k over the relatively short summer. Twilight Zone stuff.

In this case there would be lots of travel for the SE division teams, even more travel for the (presumably dubbed) Jets. On a tangential upside, their market will get to more east coast superstars (Crosby, Ovi, etc.) playing in Winnipeg over the course of the regular season than most markets on that side of the continent do.

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JTully317    11

JTully317
Posted

By having all those superstars play more games at Winnipeg's home, they will most likely get a lot more fans and sell a lot more tickets. This could be very good if it is in fact the case. However they will have some very long road trips.

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Chadd    916

Chadd
Posted

Interesting bit I heard Barry Melrose talking about today on the ESPN Hockey Today Podcast.

There's a chance that Winnipeg will be playing in the Southeast Division for '11-'12 due to re-alignment being a major pain in the d**k over the relatively short summer. Twilight Zone stuff.

In this case there would be lots of travel for the SE division teams, even more travel for the (presumably dubbed) Jets. On a tangential upside, their market will get to more east coast superstars (Crosby, Ovi, etc.) playing in Winnipeg over the course of the regular season than most markets on that side of the continent do.

I see Nashville as the logical move to the southeast division as a replacement for the Thrashers with Minnesota moving to the central to make room for the Winnipeg/Manitoba franchise in the Northwest with Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver. You could also make a case for Dallas moving to the central and colorado moving to the pacific, but they will likely do whatever will have the least impact.

I know a lot of people want Detroit to move to the east, but there isn't any good way to move them over to the east. Nashville is more "southern" than any other team that isn't in the southeast.

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