Power Balance Bracelet

[Jason Harris 31]

I think you're set on repeat, press the button again and add some new content to your argument. You don't see me constantly reminding you... until now... about guys like Criss Angel who make their living on making people believe he has special powers while preying on the suggestiveness humans fall for. He doesn't tell people what is going to happen in his "tricks" either.

I'm not making an argument; I'm relaying exactly what happened. From my perspective, this isn't a theoretical discussion, although some have tried to present it that way. The only person from the "other side" of the dialogue who hasn't "set on repeat, pressed the button again and added some new content to the argument" has been LawGoalie. He had some interesting nuances for the conversation. The rest have been repeating themselves over and over, just like I have, but with one important distinction -- they haven't tried the items, nor had someone tell them they hadn't experienced what they had experienced. That tends to raise my hackles, and I guarantee you I will continue to "set on repeat, press the button again and add some new content to my argument" as long as people try to paint that picture.

It does raise another interesting habit of humans. It's all depends what side of the prism they're viewing. Your veterans are over the hill, ours are seasoned. Your rookies are reckless, ours are exuberant.

What I mean, of course, is you're staking out the other side so you're unable to recognize that no one has changed their arguments. Yet it appears to only bother you that someone from the opposing camp won't stop spreading these malicious lies.

By the way, this hearkens back to a similar conversation we had in an Oggie thread, when I told you that I seldom enter threads in "Hockey Equipment," because I only express my opinions for those products I've used. You never seen me talk about a CCM stick, because I've never used a CCM stick. However, I will discuss from now until infinity those products I've used, especially when someone who hasn't used that product -- Oggie Grips, t-blades, holograms -- tells me I'm wrong for believing the way I do. Basically, they're talking about a CCM stick that they know nothing about. Had that been the case with me after this topic was started, the most I would have said is, "I'm rather dubious about products of this nature. The people who use them seem to be stretching for answers...."

[troy 12]

Charlie Manuel wears two, that's enough for me.

[TBLfan 25]

I'm not making an argument; I'm relaying exactly what happened. From my perspective, this isn't a theoretical discussion, although some have tried to present it that way. The only person from the "other side" of the dialogue who hasn't "set on repeat, pressed the button again and added some new content to the argument" has been LawGoalie. He had some interesting nuances for the conversation. The rest have been repeating themselves over and over, just like I have, but with one important distinction -- they haven't tried the items, nor had someone tell them they hadn't experienced what they had experienced. That tends to raise my hackles, and I guarantee you I will continue to "set on repeat, press the button again and add some new content to my argument" as long as people try to paint that picture.

It does raise another interesting habit of humans. It's all depends what side of the prism they're viewing. Your veterans are over the hill, ours are seasoned. Your rookies are reckless, ours are exuberant.

What I mean, of course, is you're staking out the other side so you're unable to recognize that no one has changed their arguments. Yet it appears to only bother you that someone from the opposing camp won't stop spreading these malicious lies.

By the way, this hearkens back to a similar conversation we had in an Oggie thread, when I told you that I seldom enter threads in "Hockey Equipment," because I only express my opinions for those products I've used. You never seen me talk about a CCM stick, because I've never used a CCM stick. However, I will discuss from now until infinity those products I've used, especially when someone who hasn't used that product -- Oggie Grips, t-blades, holograms -- tells me I'm wrong for believing the way I do. Basically, they're talking about a CCM stick that they know nothing about. Had that been the case with me after this topic was started, the most I would have said is, "I'm rather dubious about products of this nature. The people who use them seem to be stretching for answers...."

The difference is that it's multiple users saying the same comments as others and its YOU and only YOU restating YOUR opinion over and over again. It's not needed, the content and your point is already here. You are wasting time of people, like myself, that see this topic and read it in hopes of some actual discussion. Unfortunately, it's just repetitive comments over and over again; "look at this video that proves our point", "Let me quote myself from earlier in the thread." You're one of the reasons this thread doesn't move forward and continues this circular pattern that is a waste of time and we all know that circular conversation leads to locked threads, not resolutions of arguments.

Law Goalie added some content that could have lead the thread into a direction of actual quality conversation and you didn't bother with it, you chose to take the thread back to page 1. Since then there has been half a page of useless argument and the one useful post in the last six pages of this thread has been completely ignored.

[eric42434224 1]

The difference is that it's multiple users saying the same comments as others and its YOU and only YOU restating YOUR opinion over and over again. It's not needed, the content and your point is already here. You are wasting time of people, like myself, that see this topic and read it in hopes of some actual discussion. Unfortunately, it's just repetitive comments over and over again; "look at this video that proves our point", "Let me quote myself from earlier in the thread." You're one of the reasons this thread doesn't move forward and continues this circular pattern that is a waste of time and we all know that circular conversation leads to locked threads, not resolutions of arguments.

Law Goalie added some content that could have lead the thread into a direction of actual quality conversation and you didn't bother with it, you chose to take the thread back to page 1. Since then there has been half a page of useless argument and the one useful post in the last six pages of this thread has been completely ignored.

The claims of these products fly directly in the face of proven physics and biology. I understand that most people wont understand the physics and biology involved, so I am not shocked when these points arent brought up in the conversation. What shocks me is that it is also against common sense, and how many people fall for it. These are money making machines that prey on ignorance and the gullible.

[Chadd 916]

Regardless of your feelings on the product, this is getting old. I'm much more willing to take the word of someone that has no financial interest and has actually tried the product than people who haven't even seen one. Yet another topic closed due to a couple people being argumentative. Funny how it's almost always the same couple people.

[JR Boucicaut 3760]

http://gizmodo.com/5723577/powerbalance-admits-their-wristbands-are-a-scam

Reopened for the sake of discussion and crow-eating...

[TheGasman 0]

http://gizmodo.com/5723577/powerbalance-admits-their-wristbands-are-a-scam

Reopened for the sake of discussion and crow-eating...

Im pretty sure the Trade Practices act of 1974 didnt account for magic, Im still not convinced.

[Jason Harris 31]

http://gizmodo.com/5723577/powerbalance-admits-their-wristbands-are-a-scam

Reopened for the sake of discussion and crow-eating...

Gizmodo may have used the word in their title, but PowerBalance didn't admit to their product being a scam. They only admitted to a lack of scientific evidence to support their claims. Those are different concepts.

I said it earlier, but there are tests that can be devised to measure strength and flexibility changes. For instance, put someone on one leg and see how much they can lift, then alternate with putting in a placebo (no hologram ) card in their back pocket versus one with a hologram. Measure any changes. I have no idea why none of the purveyors of holograms haven't come up with realistic tests, although I recognize the easy answer is to say they know they wouldn't come up with data they want. Unlike most people, including myself of fifteen months ago, my experience leads me to believe there are movements that could be measured to improve with the holograms.

Regardless of what Chris Angel tells me.....

[wrangler 157]

Gizmodo may have used the word in their title, but PowerBalance didn't admit to their product being a scam. They only admitted to a lack of scientific evidence to support their claims. Those are different concepts.

I said it earlier, but there are tests that can be devised to measure strength and flexibility changes. For instance, put someone on one leg and see how much they can lift, then alternate with putting in a placebo (no hologram ) card in their back pocket versus one with a hologram. Measure any changes. I have no idea why none of the purveyors of holograms haven't come up with realistic tests, although I recognize the easy answer is to say they know they wouldn't come up with data they want. Unlike most people, including myself of fifteen months ago, my experience leads me to believe there are movements that could be measured to improve with the holograms.

Regardless of what Chris Angel tells me.....

Let's see, they made claims they couldn't prove. Is that what we normally call "lying"? And they did it to make money? But it's not a "scam"? I think I'm confused.

[goaliemanshark 6]

I recognize the easy answer is to say they know they wouldn't come up with data they want.

Exactly, is there any other possible reason? I still don't understand why a company that claims their product works wouldn't at least attempt to win a million dollar prize (as i discussed earlier in this thread). It would be quite the publicity stunt regardless of the outcome...

[Jason Harris 31]

Let's see, they made claims they couldn't prove. Is that what we normally call "lying"? And they did it to make money? But it's not a "scam"? I think I'm confused.

I'm not trying to be facetious here, but making claims that one couldn't prove could be a scam or it could be a case of Galileo not yet having the technology to prove his claims.

After experiencing what I and five others I'm aware of experienced, I tend to agree with goaliemanshark, wondering why they just haven't attempted to devise some tests to definitely show the holograms produce improvements in flexibility or strength. If I had financial interest in a product like that, it's the type of thing I'd do in a hot second. Find 100 people, measure their baselines in stretches and strength, then alternate between taking measurements while the test subjects are unknowingly using a card without a hologram and one with a hologram.

Now, what I will say that is interesting, because it leads credence to both sides of the argument, is I spoke with Don McKenzie when this thread was open earlier to tell him he should visit the thread to answer questions. He's not a distributor of the PowerBracelets, but is a distributor of the holograms. He said something along the lines that he wanted to take measurements of sorts with the holograms, but his distributor agreement didn't allow him to, which he found frustrating. So, on one hand, we could all pounce on that as evidence the main supplier is aware they're scamming the public and won't allow any experimentation that could prove this a scam; yet we also could look at it that a distributor of the product has done enough mini-experiments to feel confident a major experiment would produce results to prove there is some benefit to using the hologram.

By the way, this is purely anecdotal, but I've still kept a mental tab of how many times I've wipe out playing hockey while I've had the holograms in my equipment, and I'd guess it's been about seven times in the past fourteen months. Before that, it was probably about an average of at least once every two scrimmages, since I tend to go a bit too fast on the rink. Now, again, that's purely anecdotal, but it's why J.R. could open this thread from here to 2050 and one million people could come on here and tell me that I've only experienced placebos, yet I wouldn't change my opinion one whit.

[chk hrd 164]

what measurements can you take of a hologram? It is a 3-D picture created by light. There is nothing to measure. What makes the hologram in a rubber bracelet different than the one on a credit card? Nothing, same construction, same physics. "We admit that there is no credible scientific evidence that supports our claims and therefore we engaged in misleading conduct" pretty much says (in my opinion) that they new there was nothing to measure, no medical or physical bennefit. They relied on people hoping it would help them.

Plain and simple. They new it was a scam and got caught. There is very little chance of them having to reimburse people and loosing money. If you read the retraction you need every piece of original paperwork and the box it came in to return it. How many people can do that. Do a cost analysis and the scammers come out way ahead. So they have to shut the company down, the owners still put alot of money into thier pockets and laughed thier way to the bank on someone elses dime.

[Jason Harris 31]

1) The measurements one would take would not be of the hologram, but of the test subjects' strength and flexibilty while using the hologram versus their baselines without.

2) The statement made is pretty much a boilerplate statement we've seen for similar products (like ginko jojoba) in the past. It could mean a company knowingly participated in a scam, while it could just as readily mean the company completely believes in their product, but hasn't produced evidence to back it up. If it's the former, sure, it would be a scam; if it's the latter, I don't think too many of us would classify it as a scam.

By the way, I'm a bit rushed this morning, so I only chose ginko jojoba becuase it was the first one that popped in my head; I really don't know where it currently stands in the scientific community. In general, however, I was reffering to the hundreds of items in health food stores that have the boilerplate "The FDA has not evaluated these statements...." Are we to assume that EVERYONE of those is being sold as a scam, since they haven't waited for FDA approval of their claims, or should we use intuition that at least some of them are being marketed with good faith? A perfect example is resveratrol, which I started taking a year ago when I read a Time magazine article that scientists were starting to think it leads to longer life expectancy. However, it still has the FDA boilerplate on the packaging.

[rachael7 1]

I've got this property in FL with a unique electromagnetic signature due to the primordial swamp gasses... the physics are far to lengthy to go into here, but anecdotal evidence suggests that for every 1/2 acre of property you own, you'll be 1% faster. How many acres can I put you down for?

[Jason Harris 31]

It's times like that, Rachael, when we need a Like button!

[wrangler 157]

I'm not trying to be facetious here, but making claims that one couldn't prove could be a scam or it could be a case of Galileo not yet having the technology to prove his claims.

I understand your points, but we'll have to disagree. To a consumer, there's no functional difference.

I see a company developing a product, marketing it with claims as to what it will do, without any research that shows the product will perform as claimed. In today's world, consumers have an expectation that a product will perform as advertised, and that there is a basis (scientific evidence) for such claim. This is the environment that businesses operate in, and they understand it. We're not dealing with two guys, with no business knowledge or experience, making a product in their garage. Given the scale of this operation, in this context, I'll call it a scam.

[wrangler 157]

I've got this property in FL with a unique electromagnetic signature due to the primordial swamp gasses... the physics are far to lengthy to go into here, but anecdotal evidence suggests that for every 1/2 acre of property you own, you'll be 1% faster. How many acres can I put you down for?

I'll take it all. Here's my marker.

[Chadd 916]

Let's see, they made claims they couldn't prove. Is that what we normally call "lying"? And they did it to make money? But it's not a "scam"? I think I'm confused.

Are we still talking about the bracelet or have we gotten into another religious debate?

[wrangler 157]

Are we still talking about the bracelet or have we gotten into another religious debate?

I suppose you could say that about religion, but our expectations in that context are completely different.

Here we're buying product, different context altogether, but the company, instead of having hard data, requires an "act of faith". This seems to have been a religious issue from the beginning.

[Jason Harris 31]

I understand your points, but we'll have to disagree. To a consumer, there's no functional difference.

I see a company developing a product, marketing it with claims as to what it will do, without any research that shows the product will perform as claimed. In today's world, consumers have an expectation that a product will perform as advertised, and that there is a basis (scientific evidence) for such claim. This is the environment that businesses operate in, and they understand it. We're not dealing with two guys, with no business knowledge or experience, making a product in their garage. Given the scale of this operation, in this context, I'll call it a scam.

There is iron in your words.

Sorry, man, I had a flashback to Josey Wales, but let me play devil's advocate here. We're assuming this is a large operation because we see commercials with professional players wearing the bracelets, but what if this is the culmination of ten years of efforts and it actually started with two guys in a garage? I have no idea how it started, so I'm just making up stuff here, but what if this was some New Age guy on peyote who absolutely believed in the Power Of The Pyramid and he started making the holograms for friends? Let's carry it further and say his friends were so amazed they told him he should try to sell the holograms, which he did, until one day he finds out the Kobe Bryant just LOVES the bracelet. To his mind, maybe he never knew scientifically why the hologram worked, but he knew intuitively from the start that it would, so the fact professional athletes were swearing by them was proof to him.

I've just made up that story, but if that actually was how it evolved, then I would place the operation under "no credible scientific evidence that supports our claims," but I wouldn't call that a scam, because the original designer's intent would have been to introduce a product that head-scratchingly improves balance.

I've spoken twice to the Don McKenzie, who distributes them into Canada, and I can tell you that he doesn't believe he is scamming people. He totally believes these work. I know of five others who did the little experiment that Don did to me, and each them had the same look on their face that mirrored the first words out of my mouth, "What the hell is this???" My friend Kerry jokingly looked around, then said, "Alright, where are the wires?!?!"

My point is none of us who did the experiment could supply scientific evidence, but everyone of us would admit that something happened that we never would have believed could happen -- that is, a business card slipped into our pockets somehow allowed us to fight harder against someone else's pushes.

All that said, you could be right. Maybe the people behind PowerBracelet are incredibly cynical and knew that if $1,000,000 of pet rocks could be sold, then at least that much of PowerBracelets could be sold. However, I know from personal interaction of at least one person (Canadian distributor) who is selling the holograms and adamantly believes they work. And I don't classify that as a scam. He may turn out to be misinformed, or twenty years from now he may be vindicated, but I wouldn't put this guy under "scam."

[wrangler 157]

There is iron in your words.

Sorry, man, I had a flashback to Josey Wales, but let me play devil's advocate here. We're assuming this is a large operation because we see commercials with professional players wearing the bracelets, but what if this is the culmination of ten years of efforts and it actually started with two guys in a garage?

Perhaps my favorite Clint Eastwood movie.

I don't see that it matters how it started, as opposed to where it was when the marketing efforts in question began (and continued). As to intent, I don't see that as relevant to the points I made regarding marketing vs. consumer expectations in today's business environment.

If they make claims for which they know they have no scientific backup, and they know that people expect them to have such data, and base their purchase decisions on that criterion, I'll have to call it a scam, regardless of the purity of their beliefs.

[jds 20]

Saw a tv interview with Andrew Conboy of the Hamilton Bulldogs and noticed he was wearing one of these. He appeared quite balanced during the interview. Even his answers were well balanced.

[RadioGaGa 162]

http://m.cnbc.com/id/40842683/CNBC_s_Sports_Product_Of_The_Year_Power_Balance

[Axxion89 32]

http://m.cnbc.com/id/40842683/CNBC_s_Sports_Product_Of_The_Year_Power_Balance

http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/health/2011/01/04/2011-01-04_oneal_beckhamloved_power_balance_bracelet_makers_admits_it_doesnt_work_.html

Ladies and Gentlemen, your CNBC Sports Product of the Year

[chk hrd 164]

MSNBC

Interesting article. Athletes can be the worst people to believe because many of them are superstitious...lucky socks, underwear, etc.

The company expects 2010 sales to be 35 million. Do I feel bad that they got caught, not a bit.